Hold Functions

Started by Jamesmcgtr, February 06, 2024, 08:31:32 PM

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Jamesmcgtr

Hi! Not sure if I'm doing something wrong but I can't get the hold functions to work properly, specifically hold type 2. I have set each part to hold type 2 as well as the setting found in Control/Assign>Guitar to MIDI. Hold type 2 is supposed to mute new incoming notes once you've engaged the hold function but instead it acts like hold type 4 and adds any new notes into the held sound. Cacophony ensues! Is anyone else having this issue?

Thanks

admin_shawnb

I am not seeing this.

What tones are you using? 

How are you triggering the hold?

Are you using some form of a splitter, and trying to solo on the other instrument?

Jamesmcgtr

Thanks for responding!

I'm using several different tones. Mostly preset scene 61 (an organ sound) but it's happening on every scene I've tried. I'm triggering the hold using Ctl 2.

I'm using a Fishman Tripleplay pickup which is wirelessly transmitting to a usb receiver. That is plugged into a DoreMidi usb midi host with 5-pin midi out to the GM 800. It tracks perfectly and all other functions seem to work fine. My regular guitar pickups are going into a standard amp setup so I'm trying achieve a hold on the GM 800 and then solo with the guitar sounds.

I also tried it with a usb midi keyboard into the DoreMidi and on to the GM 800 and had the same issue so I don't think the Tripleplay is causing the issue. Maybe it's the fact that my midi is connected through a usb midi host?

Elantric

Quote from: Jamesmcgtr on February 06, 2024, 08:31:32 PMHi! Not sure if I'm doing something wrong but I can't get the hold functions to work properly, specifically hold type 2. I have set each part to hold type 2 as well as the setting found in Control/Assign>Guitar to MIDI. Hold type 2 is supposed to mute new incoming notes once you've engaged the hold function but instead it acts like hold type 4 and adds any new notes into the held sound. Cacophony ensues! Is anyone else having this issue?

Thanks
Its my understanding many of the GM-800 functions  ( like Hold 2)  require the GK SERIAL input, and do not operate in same manner when driven by external 5 pin MIDI input

arkieboy

#4
It is a bit confusing.  I haven't categorically proven what I say below, but I'm 90% certain.  (After playing around with trying to control my GM-800 from my SY-1000 for a while, I just bit the bullet and bought the physical controllers, which is why I'm not completely certain).

Think of the GM-800 as a box that contains four parts, each effectively a Zenology Pro synth.  Each of those synths has its own capability to assign internal parameters to external MIDI controllers.  If the Zenology preset you have selected for a part in your scene has MIDI assigns, it will respond to the external MIDI input as expected.

The box itself also has physical controller inputs - you can plug in either four foot switches, two expression pedals, or a combination of two foot switches and one expression pedal.  These controller inputs can be assigned to parameters in the Zenology Pro synths using the UI in the GM-800.  These controllers are physical only - they do not respond to external MIDI.

You can't (yet) edit the Zenology preset on the GM-800.  You can't (yet) export a Zenology preset to Zenology Pro to edit it.  You can export a Zenology Pro preset to the GM-800.  So in principle, if you want to reprogram your GM-800 from scratch, then you can control the parts properly by MIDI.

GK-Serial gives you access to further physical controllers that you typically find on an external Roland GK2/2a/3 pickup, the internal Roland GK-KIT, a Fender Roland Ready Strat, Godin Synth Access Guitars and some Brian Moore iGuitars.  These are also physical only - you can't set up S1 in the GM-800 UI and address it from MIDI.

Guitar-synth hold modes seem to go beyond the MIDI spec.  MIDI synths typically support a piano damper - extend VCA sustain for all notes in the sustain phase and any newly played notes (hold 1) - and sometimes support a sostenuto - extend VCA sustain for notes already sounding, but not for any notes played after its depressed (hold 4).  The 'sustain notes playing and don't play any more' seems to me something introduced with Roland guitar synths - if you look at the MIDI spec, 'hold 2' actually increases the VCA release time, so notes should still die away.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

IMH1234

Quote from: arkieboy on February 07, 2024, 06:34:19 AMIt is a bit confusing.  I haven't categorically proven what I say below, but I'm 90% certain.  (After playing around with trying to control my GM-800 from my SY-1000 for a while, I just bit the bullet and bought the physical controllers, which is why I'm not completely certain).

Think of the GM-800 as a box that contains four parts, each effectively a Zenology Pro synth.  Each of those synths has its own capability to assign internal parameters to external MIDI controllers.  If the Zenology preset you have selected for a part in your scene has MIDI assigns, it will respond to the external MIDI input as expected.

The box itself also has physical controller inputs - you can plug in either four foot switches, two expression pedals, or a combination of two foot switches and one expression pedal.  These controller inputs can be assigned to parameters in the Zenology Pro synths using the UI in the GM-800.  These controllers are physical only - they do not respond to external MIDI.

You can't (yet) edit the Zenology preset on the GM-800.  You can't (yet) export a Zenology preset to Zenology Pro to edit it.  You can export a Zenology Pro preset to the GM-800.  So in principle, if you want to reprogram your GM-800 from scratch, then you can control the parts properly by MIDI.

GK-Serial gives you access to further physical controllers that you typically find on an external Roland GK2/2a/3 pickup, the internal Roland GK-KIT, a Fender Roland Ready Strat, Godin Synth Access Guitars and some Brian Moore iGuitars.  These are also physical only - you can't set up S1 in the GM-800 UI and address it from MIDI.

Guitar-synth hold modes seem to go beyond the MIDI spec.  MIDI synths typically support a piano damper - extend VCA sustain for all notes in the sustain phase and any newly played notes (hold 1) - and sometimes support a sostenuto - extend VCA sustain for notes already sounding, but not for any notes played after its depressed (hold 4).  The 'sustain notes playing and don't play any more' seems to me something introduced with Roland guitar synths - if you look at the MIDI spec, 'hold 2' actually increases the VCA release time, so notes should still die away.

It would be great to validate all this - if you are correct then the GM800 suddenly becomes more interesting again as with a lot of work and an external midi controller it would be possible to access all of the parameters of Zencore without being connected to the computer by allocating them to a midi cc in Zenology pro and exporting these to the hardware. Completely ridiculous way to do something that should have been built into the hardware and seems like it would still have limitations in what can be done but would reduce my concern that this becomes an expensive doorstop when Roland moves away from supporting Zencore.

arkieboy

Sadly my Roland Cloud subscription ran out, so I'm not in a position to solidify my conclusions.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

gumtownadmin

I am using the Hold 2 functions, and works as it should with the input set to GK on Ctl2.
I will test today if midi input notes work the same.
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.

admin_shawnb

#8
Quote from: IMH1234 on February 07, 2024, 07:40:12 AMIt would be great to validate all this - if you are correct then the GM800 suddenly becomes more interesting again as with a lot of work and an external midi controller it would be possible to access all of the parameters of Zencore without being connected to the computer by allocating them to a midi cc in Zenology pro and exporting these to the hardware. Completely ridiculous way to do something that should have been built into the hardware and seems like it would still have limitations in what can be done but would reduce my concern that this becomes an expensive doorstop when Roland moves away from supporting Zencore.

Everything in @arkieboy 's post is accurate.

In terms of each voice honoring all of the Zenology Pro assigns, + all of the GM-800/BTS assigns, that is true.  You can control everything, for each individual part, independently.

It really is an amazing device.

More here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36322.0

admin_shawnb

Speaking of which, in the GM-800's MIDI implementation chart, it says that the standard CC#64 (Hold type 1) and CC#66 (Sostenuto) are supported.

The problem with the GM-800's MIDI implementation chart is that it lists all supported CCs, somewhere in the device, but there is no list anywhere that documents which of the GM-800's tones support which standard CCs.  That must be found by trial & error...

There is no reporting capability that can show you which internal assigns are used in the tones.  Further, not all the tones in the GM-800 have corresponding patches in Zenology Pro for you to open & inspect in ZP.  So...  Each tone is unfortunately a bit of a black box...  Experimentation is required.

Jamesmcgtr

Thanks Everyone!

I'll most likely wind up getting the GK pickup. That seems to be the easiest solution. I appreciate the insights!

arkieboy

Quote from: IMH1234 on February 07, 2024, 07:40:12 AMIt would be great to validate all this - if you are correct then the GM800 suddenly becomes more interesting again as with a lot of work and an external midi controller it would be possible to access all of the parameters of Zencore without being connected to the computer by allocating them to a midi cc in Zenology pro and exporting these to the hardware. Completely ridiculous way to do something that should have been built into the hardware and seems like it would still have limitations in what can be done but would reduce my concern that this becomes an expensive doorstop when Roland moves away from supporting Zencore.
I don't think there is enough assign space to make a preset completely flexible in the way I imagine you might be thinking.  But it will almost certainly be possible to extend the macro editing capability offered by the GM-800 UI to expose other important parameters that could be tweaked after a patch is selected to 'future proof' your favourite tonalities. 

That said the macros are pretty sensible and should be enough to get your sound to sit properly in the context you want to play it, and given the range of Zenology presets inside the box already, it's a pretty good Swiss Army Knife synth.  MIDI out is good so get busy with a multi-timbral character synth or plugin.  May I suggest a Waldorf Blofeld for hardware, or the Korg Wavestation plugin?

That's not to say my number one request isn't updating the unit's SysEx so we can deep edit the sounds.  But I'm still happily running on the edits I made in the month I had a free Roland Cloud demo license.  Honestly, I wouldn't worry - it sounds great and it's full of sounds that we all need; it will continue to be useful until it breaks.

Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

IMH1234

Quote from: admin_shawnb on February 07, 2024, 10:26:09 AMEverything in @arkieboy 's post is accurate.

In terms of each voice honoring all of the Zenology Pro assigns, + all of the GM-800/BTS assigns, that is true.  You can control everything, for each individual part, independently.

It really is an amazing device.

More here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36322.0

This is interesting I just read your excellent summary and watched this video:



So it looks like I could use something like an Akai MPD 232 and the learn midi functionality in Zenology pro to assign a knob or fader to any parameter at a tone or partial level in addition to the internal assign controls which can map a cc value to multiple parameters. I would then download the patch onto the GM800 and control the hardware unit in realtime using these faders - basically bypassing the need to use the software or a laptop to access some of the deeper editing capabilities.

This would still be limited to the midi learns and assigns set up for the patch in the software and unique sounds created by changing parameters in the GM800 could not be saved after switching the unit off but it I think mean that I could do what I want which is create real time adjustable synth architectures within hardware memory and no need to use a computer beyond setting these up.

Honestly, this makes advanced FUNS programming in Kurzweil VAST synthesis seem effortless and intuitive by comparison - but at least there are ways to do this stuff despite Roland's best efforts  :)

IMH1234

Quote from: arkieboy on February 07, 2024, 11:23:34 AMI don't think there is enough assign space to make a preset completely flexible in the way I imagine you might be thinking.  But it will almost certainly be possible to extend the macro editing capability offered by the GM-800 UI to expose other important parameters that could be tweaked after a patch is selected to 'future proof' your favourite tonalities. 

That was what I am thinking but looks like there is enough flexibility to create patches that would meet my needs and are somewhat future proofed - I think I am going to hang on to see if Boss put out something that covers the HRM/COSM synth sounds later this year but if they do the that + GM800 and my legacy VG99 would cover most bases I need