Wave synth on VG-99 vs GR-55

Started by justinmorell, February 01, 2024, 06:12:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

justinmorell

I've had the GR-55 for many years now, and really like it for a few things.  One of those things is the  Wave Synth.  I just got a VG-99 and was excited to try out the "synth" sounds as I had heard that there is a lot more flexibility, especially with the GR-300 options.  Of course that's true.  However, I am surprised that when I try the Wave Synth on the VG-99 it seems not to feel anything like the GR-55.  When I play successive notes on different strings, it seems to dampen the sustain of the notes on strings already sounding.  When I play chords on the GR-55 wave synth, all notes sustain as expected, but on the VG-99 I hear mainly the last string I play.  I guess I'm wondering if this is normal behavior.  I feel like I must be doing something wrong, but I've double and triple checked all of my GK settings and tried to get the patch settings on the VG-99 as close to the GR-55 as I can, given that the parameters are more elaborate on the VG-99.

Has anyone else experienced these sustain issues with the VG-99 wave synth settings?
justin

GR-55, VG-99

Elantric

Save all VG-99 presets,

Then perform a Factory Restore

aliensporebomb

Might be helpful to hear an MP3 of what you are experiencing and what you are expecting to hear. 

My soundcloud page has tons of VG-99 examples throughout that might give you some ideas:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

IMH1234

Agree a sound example would be helpful. The thing that springs to mind is that this might possibly be a low decay setting. The GR55 does not have a decay envelope but the VG99 does - this setting can easily create a 'dampening' effect that is not possible on the GR55

Another thing is that the GR55 has a slightly different sonic character than the Vg 99 - to my ears tat least The vg99 is a bit grittier and darker sounding which could be what you are hearing?

justinmorell

VG-99 vs GR-55 wave synth

OK, I recorded both the VG-99 and the GR-55 wave synth sounds.  I did a complete reset of the VG-99 just before the recording, then initialized a patch and turned on the wave synth.  I have no effects turned on for either unit — no reverb, no compression, no poly effects, etc.  The GK settings on both units are as close to the same as I can get them.  Both have the modeling tone volume set to 50, the patch level at 100, and the output knob at 12 o'clock.  I'm taking both directly out the back via the mono jack with both units set for the same output setting.  Something MUST be wrong here, right?
justin

GR-55, VG-99

IMH1234

I don't think there is anything wrong here - you just need to adjust the attack and decay settings - attack to the lowest setting, decay to maximum.

justinmorell

Quote from: IMH1234 on February 02, 2024, 01:07:07 PMyou just need to adjust the attack and decay settings
OK, here it is:  VG-99 and GR-55 v2

I adjusted the attack to 0, the decay to 100, and then lowered the resonance.  It still sounds pretty anemic, and the fullness/richness/sustain is nothing like what I get on the GR-55 (which I added again to the end of this new file).  Even the gain difference seems odd.  Again, I'm not using any amp settings or effects.  Why would the VG-99 have such a huge discrepancy in gain vs the GR-55?
justin

GR-55, VG-99

IMH1234

There are quite a few gain stages in the VG99 - especially when compared to the GR55 - this includes numerous level and EQs - I will have a  play around on my units tomorrow and try to work our which are the most likely culprits.

justinmorell

Right, and I recognize that there are all of these various gain stages.  But if all of those things are bypassed or set at the same level, I would think that the output would at least be in the ballpark.  And just to be clear, all global and patch EQ is disabled on both units for the comparison, as well as any amp sims or anything else that might be considered an additional gain stage besides the patch and overall output level.  Even so, there's a real lack of depth and warmth in the VG-99 sound.  I wonder if it's possible I have a defective unit.
justin

GR-55, VG-99

gumtownadmin

Possibly differences in the modelling evolution too, the models are not static over the years and are constantly improved.
So the same settings would yield different results, maybe the input gain staging is different.
What happens if the VG-99 input level and EQ is tweaked to match the GR-55 ?
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.

Elantric

Disable the "N.S." (NOISE SUPPRESSOR)

justinmorell

Quote from: Elantric on February 02, 2024, 03:20:11 PMDisable the "N.S." (NOISE SUPPRESSOR)
If you mean the NS in the global settings, I've tried it at 0, at -20, and at +20 and it doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference.

Quote from: gumtownadmin on February 02, 2024, 03:19:22 PMthe models are not static over the years and are constantly improved
I did know that this is the case from one model to the next, though I thought the VG-99 was released just after the GR-55, yet the wave synth seems to be less of an improvement than a downgrade.  I wouldn't have been surprised if it had a slightly different timbre, or a wider range of timbral options compared to the rather limited parameters on the GR-55.  But what concerns me is the VERY low output levels, the effect that one string seems to have on the levels of the others, and the fizzy sound quality.  It sounds a little like 8-bit audio, but with a huge amount of compression such that any successive note buries the sustain of the others.

I wonder if anyone could try setting an init patch with just the wave synth sound activated (on one model only) and see if it has a similar sound quality.  If it does, then I guess it's just how it sounds on the VG-99 and maybe I can't use it for what I wanted.  If it sounds more like my GR-55 clip, then I must have a bad unit.  I did just buy it used so I suppose that's possible.  I don't know what to compare it to.

Thanks very much for taking time to troubleshoot this.
justin

GR-55, VG-99

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#13
Theres a separate NS in the GK Input , but that applies to COSM Guitar  MODELS,  not Wave Synth.

justinmorell

Quote from: gumtown on February 02, 2024, 10:59:16 PMVG-99 = 2007
GR-55 = 2011

Wow, it feels like I've had my GR-55 for 20 years!
justin

GR-55, VG-99

justinmorell

In any event, and recognizing that I'm asking a lot, I wonder if someone might have a few minutes to either a) try turning on the wave synth after a patch init to see if it sounds like what I've recorded, or b) actually post a recording of the above, or c) compare their own VG-99 wave synth with that on their own GR-55 and let me know if it sounds like mine.  I only bought this unit a little more than a week ago and might argue for returning it if it's really defective.
justin

GR-55, VG-99

IMH1234

#16
Quote from: justinmorell on February 03, 2024, 03:58:36 AMIn any event, and recognizing that I'm asking a lot, I wonder if someone might have a few minutes to either a) try turning on the wave synth after a patch init to see if it sounds like what I've recorded, or b) actually post a recording of the above, or c) compare their own VG-99 wave synth with that on their own GR-55 and let me know if it sounds like mine.  I only bought this unit a little more than a week ago and might argue for returning it if it's really defective.

Here you go:

https://soundcloud.com/ian_michael_howard/wave-synth-test/s-mBY1eTqaZYX?si=b83e271713a44406a97405dfc68727a3&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Overview of the test conditions:

GR55 into external input of VG99
Settings:

COSM Guitar A:
COSM GTR Sw [On] / Modelling Type [Synth] / Synth Type [Wave] / Wave Shape [Saw] / Ware Sens [ 0] / Wave Attack [ 0] / Wave Decal [100] / Wave Level [100] / Cutoff [100] / Reso [ 0] / Filter Type [-24dB] / Filter Attack [ 0]/ filter decay [100] / Filter depth [ 0]/ EQ SW [Off] / String Level [All: 100] / Mix Level COSM Guitar [50] / Mix Level Normal PU [ 0]

COSM Guitar B:
COSM GTR Sw [On] / Mix Level COSM Guitar [ 0]/ Mix Level Normal PU [100]

Poly FX/ FX / COSM Amp - all off both channels

Mixer A/B Balance assigned to expression pedal input [for easy switching between A and B]

GR55 Settings:
Tone Model [Saw] / Colr [100]
All FX off



IMH1234

#17
I played 2 notes on each of the devices on each string. Whilst there is definitely a difference in tone,  once level balanced both have a similar underlying sound. Where there is a massive difference is in the dynamic responsiveness of the two. The GR55 feels like it has a very heavy compression hard wired in. You can actually see this on the Soundcloud waveform. the VG99 is much closer to the actual guitar input with a very pronounced natural attack. Some of this might relate to my GK input settings on the two devices but I am pretty sure that this is by design - the VG99 version seems to be designed to work with the envelopes and careful use of the other settings whereas the GR55 version may have been adapted for a more plug and play experience.

I think this may be contributing to what you are experiencing. You might be able to match the two more closely by adding a compressor for the VG99 wave synth FX path?

Brak(E)man

#18
The wave-synths on VG88, VG99 and GP-10 all sounds (quite) a bit different.
(I don't remember how the GR55 sounds , it's one of the units I never could get into using)
But with a bit of work they all come together (well close enough)
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

IMH1234

Quote from: Brak(E)man on February 03, 2024, 06:00:32 AMBut with a bit of work they all come together (well close enough)

After my initial experiment I have found some great tones by blending the VG99 and GR55 wave-synth sounds. The VG99 provides more dynamic and harmonically complex attack with a smoother sustain from the GR55 - works great with Saw wave in the VG99 and Square on the GR55 - more synth like whilst still being guitaristic than either unit in isolation

justinmorell

Quote from: IMH1234 on February 03, 2024, 04:25:06 AMHere you go:

https://soundcloud.com/ian_michael_howard/wave-synth-test/s-mBY1eTqaZYX?si=b83e271713a44406a97405dfc68727a3&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing


Thank you so much for this!  Wow, this sounds totally different from my unit.  Do I understand that you are alternating each two note segment from one unit to the other, first the VG-99, then the GR-55, etc.?  If so, these sound VERY much alike to me.  Mine sounds TOTALLY different.  In your example, I hear some difference, but it's fine detail stuff.  the basic sounds are the same.  With mine, one sounds quiet, grainy, lacking any low end or definition.  Nothing in your clip sounds like that.
justin

GR-55, VG-99

IMH1234

Quote from: justinmorell on February 03, 2024, 01:39:58 PMThank you so much for this!  Wow, this sounds totally different from my unit.  Do I understand that you are alternating each two note segment from one unit to the other, first the VG-99, then the GR-55, etc.?  If so, these sound VERY much alike to me.  Mine sounds TOTALLY different.  In your example, I hear some difference, but it's fine detail stuff.  the basic sounds are the same.  With mine, one sounds quiet, grainy, lacking any low end or definition.  Nothing in your clip sounds like that.

Yes, that is precisely how I did the test. I would definitely make sure to level match the two devices - the volume of each example is so different that it is hard to compare sonic qualities definitively - they do sound very different but how much is volume related is not clear.

What you have posted is consistent with the difference between my units but when level matched my VG99 no longer sounds thin and is more balanced with clearer articulation than the GR55 which sounds more muted but with much more sustain.