Divided Magnetic Pickups

Started by ManuelF, January 23, 2024, 01:38:48 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ManuelF

Hello,  :)
In recent years there have been some developments in new approaches to pickups (links below).
This is not about midi improvement, it is about the analog string signal improvements with hexaphonic pickups.
My suggestion is for the implementation of the 6 individualized strings on their original sound signal output. In other words, instead of having one output signal with all 6 strings together (like normal pickups), have 6 mono outputs corresponding to each of the 6 strings. With this option we can connect different effects to each of the 6 strings. It would be a new option on the device, where we could produce much cleaner sounds with a huge potential of possibilities with individual effects for each string and the dynamics would not be compromised.

Examples of similar hexaphonic pickups with this technology:

Submarine Pro
https://www.submarinepickup.com/products/submarine-pro

Nu Multi 6
https://www.cyffi.com/

R66 Active Hexaphonic Variable Gain Pickup – Chrome
https://www.somniumguitars.com/shop/pickups/r66-active-hexaphonic-variable-gain-pickup/

Videos examples:




Brent Flash

Welcome to the group ManuelF!  :)

ManuelF

Hello Brent Flash!  :)
Thank you!
I made this publication on the Triplepay feature request because this is feature request for the Triplepay device, I don't understand why it was relocated.
Unfortunately it loses the meaning of the publication.

cags12

Quote from: ManuelF on January 25, 2024, 01:57:53 AMHello Brent Flash!  :)
Thank you!
I made this publication on the Triplepay feature request because this is feature request for the Triplepay device, I don't understand why it was relocated.
Unfortunately it loses the meaning of the publication.

My 2 cents is to describe more precisely what and how the suggestion would look like in the world of Fishman triple play.
What you described can be somewhat achieved today with Roland gear, Spicetone and Cycfi-Nexus.

ManuelF

#4
Hello Cags 12! :)
The periferics that would make the triple play work with 6 separated signals is secondary on this matter, because triple play does not send 6 separate signals, only sends 1 with all strings.
Not shure if the ones you mentioned above would work, because they need to be powered with analog signals (?), and triplepay output is digital signal via bluetooth or usb.
But there are many ways to establish this 6 separated connections, through the tripleplay software itself, through a DAW with computer guitar effects, through a DAW + guitar pedals in a loop signal with audio interface with several outputs/inputs such as a Behringer UMC1820, through a Ipad with triple connect or AUM app, or garage band etc.. etc...

My focus is that Triple play is already an hexaphonic pickup, but we can not divide the strings into separated signals like the videos above. I do understand that there is some kind of processing in conversion of analog signal to midi data. Maybe this analog signal could be processed in to digital not with one output but with 6 diferent signals of each strings sound. 


Brent Flash

Quote from: ManuelF on January 25, 2024, 01:57:53 AMHello Brent Flash!  :)
Thank you!
I made this publication on the Triplepay feature request because this is feature request for the Triplepay device, I don't understand why it was relocated.
Unfortunately it loses the meaning of the publication.
Sorry if you disagree with where the owner's decided to place your post. My guess is that they put it where it would benefit the most forum members with the post's content in mind.

Fishman does directly participate in discussions from time to time so if you are trying to make a request from them, maybe you could try again and in the title of your post state that it is a feature request. If English is not your 1st language sometimes the real meaning of a post will get lost in translation so if that is the case we apologize for the error.

Elantric

#6
Quote from: ManuelF on January 25, 2024, 06:59:20 AMHello Cags 12! :)
The periferics that would make the triple play work with 6 separated signals is secondary on this matter, because triple play does not send 6 separate signals, only sends 1 with all strings.
Not shure if the ones you mentioned above would work, because they need to be powered with analog signals (?), and triplepay output is digital signal via bluetooth or usb.
But there are many ways to establish this 6 separated connections, through the tripleplay software itself, through a DAW with computer guitar effects, through a DAW + guitar pedals in a loop signal with audio interface with several outputs/inputs such as a Behringer UMC1820, through a Ipad with triple connect or AUM app, or garage band etc.. etc...

My focus is that Triple play is already an hexaphonic pickup, but we can not divide the strings into separated signals like the videos above. I do understand that there is some kind of processing in conversion of analog signal to midi data. Maybe this analog signal could be processed in to digital not with one output but with 6 diferent signals of each strings sound.


Fishman already provides a well designed divided magnetic pickup, and employs the same 8 pin pinout as Roland - a few here swap either GK-3 Divided  PU or Fishman Tripleplay Divided PU to drive either Tripleplay
PCB or GK-3 PCB, or both at same time  when building custom installs.

Given a Choice. The Tripleplay Divided PU has less adjacent string crosstalk. With a focused  magnetic flux field per string.

Details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

ManuelF

Quote from: Brent Flash on January 25, 2024, 09:51:53 AMSorry if you disagree with where the owner's decided to place your post. My guess is that they put it where it would benefit the most forum members with the post's content in mind.

Fishman does directly participate in discussions from time to time so if you are trying to make a request from them, maybe you could try again and in the title of your post state that it is a feature request. If English is not your 1st language sometimes the real meaning of a post will get lost in translation so if that is the case we apologize for the error.

Hello Brent Flash  ;D

I publish this on: "Tripleplay - Your opinions matter- Post your feature requests here", and I just wanted to contribute to this specific topic. My publication is not to cover hexaphonic pickups in general, but rather the Fishman Tripleplay pickup referencing other similar devices.
However, I understand your argument to cover more public.
And I must say, thank you for providing us with this forum as a tool for sharing experiences and knowledge.

ManuelF

Quote from: Elantric on January 25, 2024, 10:25:42 AMFishman already provides a well designed divided magnetic pickup, and employs the same 8 pin pinout as Roland - a few here swap either GK-3 Divided  PU or Fishman Tripleplay Divided PU to drive either Tripleplay
PCB or GK-3 PCB, or both at same time  when building custom installs.

Given a Choice. The Tripleplay Divided PU has less adjacent string crosstalk. With a focused  magnetic flux field per string.

Details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

Interesting to know that there are users who have made custom installs, I will do some research on this subject, thank you for sharing this.

diecairo

#9
Hey Manuel, if you read your original post, you can easily see there was not a single reference to Fishman Tripleplay. It was hard to see a connection. By the way, are you aware of this: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28047 ?

cags12

#10
Quote from: ManuelF on January 25, 2024, 06:59:20 AMHello Cags 12! :)
The periferics that would make the triple play work with 6 separated signals is secondary on this matter, because triple play does not send 6 separate signals, only sends 1 with all strings.
Not shure if the ones you mentioned above would work, because they need to be powered with analog signals (?), and triplepay output is digital signal via bluetooth or usb.
But there are many ways to establish this 6 separated connections, through the tripleplay software itself, through a DAW with computer guitar effects, through a DAW + guitar pedals in a loop signal with audio interface with several outputs/inputs such as a Behringer UMC1820, through a Ipad with triple connect or AUM app, or garage band etc.. etc...

My focus is that Triple play is already an hexaphonic pickup, but we can not divide the strings into separated signals like the videos above. I do understand that there is some kind of processing in conversion of analog signal to midi data. Maybe this analog signal could be processed in to digital not with one output but with 6 different signals of each strings sound. 



I still struggle to understand what your suggestion is for if not related to the hardware.
I feel that your actual feature suggestion/request (correct me if I am wrong) is for the triple play to transmit the already digitalized audio signals of each string individually over wireless? Is that it?

Unfortunately with the wireless technology used by triple play, that is impossible. Bluetooth has too much latency for use in live audio, even worse when you require 6 separate channels of data. The closest to that as of today is https://www.blucoe.eu/ and they have not seen the demand needed to mass produce it.

ManuelF

Quote from: diecairo on January 26, 2024, 04:01:06 AMHey Manuel, if you read your original post, you can easily see there was not a single reference to Fishman Tripleplay. It was hard to see a connection. By the way, are you aware of this: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28047 ?
Hello DieAiro!
Exactly, I agree with you, because this post has been relocated to a new topic ("divided pickups" title made by forum admins) is hard to make the connection for any of us. I sorry this happen this way, if I knew I would had take more attention when creating the post.
But no problem, I know the forum administrators did this with the best of intentions and I didn't take the necessary care, I apologize for this.
DieAiro, thank you for the link, I will check it!

Quote from: cags12 on January 26, 2024, 05:18:24 AMI still struggle to understand what your suggestion is for if not related to the hardware.
I feel that your actual feature suggestion/request (correct me if I am wrong) is for the triple play to transmit the already digitalized audio signals of each string individually over wireless? Is that it?

Unfortunately with the wireless technology used by triple play, that is impossible. Bluetooth has too much latency for use in live audio, even worse when you require 6 separate channels of data. The closest to that as of today is https://www.blucoe.eu/ and they have not seen the demand needed to mass produce it.

Cags12, hello!

Yes that is it!
The usb FTP version (connected by cable), maybe have all it needs?
Yes, I agree with you, the Bluetooth FTP version may not be a good option, even so, there are some good bluetooth codecs like the APTX low latency, the sound quality does not have to be high just dynamic, also the connection could be monophonic instead of polyphonic, maybe the usb cable for charging can send data (?). :)

cags12

Quote from: ManuelF on January 26, 2024, 06:24:21 AMHello DieAiro!
Exactly, I agree with you, because this post has been relocated to a new topic ("divided pickups" title made by forum admins) is hard to make the connection for any of us. I sorry this happen this way, if I knew I would had take more attention when creating the post.
But no problem, I know the forum administrators did this with the best of intentions and I didn't take the necessary care, I apologize for this.
DieAiro, thank you for the link, I will check it!

Cags12, hello!

Yes that is it!
The usb FTP version (connected by cable), maybe have all it needs?
Yes, I agree with you, the Bluetooth FTP version may not be a good option, even so, there are some good bluetooth codecs like the APTX low latency, the sound quality does not have to be high just dynamic, also the connection could be monophonic instead of polyphonic, maybe the usb cable for charging can send data (?). :)


Ok I get you now.
No Bluetooth codec will make it playable, that's why all the guitar wireless systems do not use BT and use some other type of protocols (proprietary most of them). Over USB on the connect? well yes, that could work I guess but USB also has some latency drawbacks and needs pretty good drivers to make it work on acceptable latency for live situations.

You mentioned monophonic, how would that be useful? the appeal of hexaphonic systems is the string separation. If you need mono, then you simply could use the regular mono pickups and regular guitar wireless systems.

ManuelF

Quote from: cags12 on January 26, 2024, 07:20:19 AMOk I get you now.
No Bluetooth codec will make it playable, that's why all the guitar wireless systems do not use BT and use some other type of protocols (proprietary most of them). Over USB on the connect? well yes, that could work I guess but USB also has some latency drawbacks and needs pretty good drivers to make it work on acceptable latency for live situations.

You mentioned monophonic, how would that be useful? the appeal of hexaphonic systems is the string separation. If you need mono, then you simply could use the regular mono pickups and regular guitar wireless systems.

Yes, I agree with you, bluetooth is very limited, the best one I know has a latency of approximately 40ms, it's still playable with one signal. But as you say, dividing the signal into 6 would be at best 240ms not playable at all! :)

Yes latency can occur via USB on windows pc, if the drivers are not the correct ones or even if the sound card is not the best. But on apple devices these latency problems do not exist.

Monophonic in the sense that only one signal is sent at a time and not 6 independent signals at the same time. Identical to a monophonic picth effect. It's just a way to minimize the data transfer volume over bluetooth. I can still have 6 diferent signals but I can't play all at the same time (can't play chords, only "solos"). :)

Elantric

#14
Suggest you review the Tripleplay Wireless Specification, created by Andras Szalay  and Larry Fishman
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36015.25#msg264399

https://www.patentguru.com/search?q=Szalay,+Andras
QuoteIn the guitar synthesizer system the latency of the sounds may be a critical parameter, and may generally be kept to a minimum. If the latency of the backwards communication is also kept within reasonable limits (which does not have to be as small as for the transmitter-to-receiver communication) then the system may be just as usable as if it would have wired bi-directional connection. The reasonable latency for the backwards communication may be limited by real-time actions like pressing a foot switch, for example. If backwards communication (e.g., from the receiver box to the guitar) gets through with a latency of not more than about 10 milliseconds, then the sensation of latency may not appear for the guitarist; it may appear as real-time. Therefore, embodiments may be constructed in a way that if the transmitter has no data to send in a time of 7 milliseconds, then it may send out a dummy message, in order to provide a way for the receiver to send back its message. In this way, the receiver may send a new data package to the transmitter in not more than 7 milliseconds. At the same time the message from the transmitter may serve the purpose of sending out a "I am alive" message to the receiver ("Active Sensing" in MIDI terminology) that may provide a way to turn off hanging notes on the sound generators if communication between the transmitter and receiver breaks down for any reason. Other latencies may be used.