Best amp compatible with gx-100 for live shows and practice ?

Started by panixgr, January 14, 2024, 09:35:19 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

panixgr

Hello
what would be your recommendation for best amp compatible with gx-100 (mono + stereo) for live shows and practice ?
Something that I would move around without breaking my back. Is there such thing ?

Elantric

Boss would suggest a Katana 100, using
Its Power Amp Input.

Its open back cab- limits your low frequencies

I tend to prefer the Aux/MP3 input on a Cube 80 - closed back 12" cab supplies more low frequency oomph
But you'll be looking in used channels,and vulnerable to a lurking flaw the prior owner never disclosed.

If funds are no problem , a QSC K10.2 Full range PA powered speaker  yeilds results many Fractal folks recommend



Elantric

Both are open back , weaker low end vs the Cube 80

arkieboy

Two others to consider:

I have a Laney FR112 which I'm pretty happy with - I've used it in an originals prog band, a covers rock band and for a jazz big band with both a SY-1000 and a Helix LT.

Recently my friend @Wonks bought the new Fender FR12 ToneMaster and we've done an A/B comparison against each other.

Very similar results - the Fender might go louder, but neither of us would ever exercise that headroom.  The Fender is ever so slightly scooped in its sound in comparison with the Laney, which has a small amount of upper-mid push, so one or the other might be more suited to your musical style.  The Fender is considerably lighter than the Laney, but the Laney is built like a tank and has a cool fascia light.  The Fender also has a better facilities to lean the amp backwards which would work better on smaller stages.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

Elantric


panixgr

I am a noob, basically. I want a good amp any way. Do you recommend the 4CM approach ? I'd take a bigger amp rather than the cube, but surely I must try both.

arkieboy

Quote from: panixgr on January 15, 2024, 01:56:49 AMI am a noob, basically. I want a good amp any way. Do you recommend the 4CM approach ? I'd take a bigger amp rather than the cube, but surely I must try both.
The GX-100 is a pretty flexible bit of kit, so how you configure it depends on a whole bunch of things.  Lets rewind a bit and build from first principles.  I'm not sure I can cover all of the options, but here's a go ...

If your amp sounds great and you use a traditional pedalboard for gain but want to use more pedals and/or reduce the amount of tap dancing, just ignore the amp modelling in the GX-100 and use it like a multi-fx pedal for live and rehearsal with your current amplifier.  Plug the out on the GX-100 into the input of your amp.

If you like and use amplifier gain and you're happy with the sound of your amp but want to get your delay sounds much clearer, 4CM will work brilliantly.  Using the amp-switch relay on the GX-100 to change the channel on your amp, you'll be able to automate everything: no tap dancing, concentrate on playing.

If you like amplifier gain, your amp is loud enough and has a decent speaker, but maybe the amp doesn't sound fantastic, then the easiest and cheapest thing is to plug the output of your GX-100 into the power-amp return of your amplifier.  That will make the GX-100 louder, but you might still need to tweak your programmes to sound good (e.g. switch off mic emulation for sure, probably speaker emulation too - the GX-100 likely has some settings to avoid this if you experiment).  In this scenario you'll probably still end up having your cab miked up for live.

If you really like the sound of the programmes you've created in the GX-100 and want them to go to the PA when you play live, if you use in-ears live, if onstage volume is a problem when you get your amp in the sweet spot, if your amp/cab is very heavy and you want something lighter, if you need to sound like you have a 4x12 but you don't want to lug one around, if you play a lot of supports/festivals and you need a rapid changeover, if you really must be stereo (ask yourself if the audience will really notice it) then think about getting a FRFR setup. 

If you have a single FRFR speaker but you want to send stereo to the front of house, you can probably use the GX-100 headphones output and a stereo splitter lead to feed two DI boxes, and use the mono out to your FRFR speaker.  Don't plug the stereo headphones output into a mono source because you might break the GX-100.  If you want to hear the stereo yourself, you'll probably need two FRFR cabinets.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

panixgr

Thank you so much, I gotta read what you wrote 10 times to start getting it.

What is FRFR ? What is the difference between a speaker and a cabinet ?

panixgr

Quote from: arkieboy on January 15, 2024, 05:52:31 AMIf you have a single FRFR speaker but you want to send stereo to the front of house, you can probably use the GX-100 headphones output and a stereo splitter lead to feed two DI boxes, and use the mono out to your FRFR speaker.  Don't plug the stereo headphones output into a mono source because you might break the GX-100.  If you want to hear the stereo yourself, you'll probably need two FRFR cabinets.

So FRFR will be my monitor, while headphones output go to the PR right ?

My current amp is fried (Crate 40GLX or smth), so this sucks anyways.

arkieboy

Quote from: panixgr on January 16, 2024, 05:09:16 AMSo FRFR will be my monitor, while headphones output go to the PR right ?
That would be what I would try.  If the FoH wants mono, then just put the DI box in-between the mono output and your FRFR speaker.

A friend of mine uses a Crate Power Block as a power amp for one side of the stereo out of his Laney preamp, and he has a great tone.  So if your Crate has an effects loop then you might get decent results plugging the GX-100 mono out into the return of your existing amp.  The real benefit of having a FRFR cab is that the extended high end allows the frequency responses of different speakers to be emulated.  IMO Boss gear is much more oriented to sounding =good= than sounding accurate so you might find it less important to have that extended high end than you would if you had a Helix or an Axe FX.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

panixgr

Quote from: arkieboy on January 16, 2024, 05:25:47 AMThat would be what I would try.  If the FoH wants mono, then just put the DI box in-between the mono output and your FRFR speaker.

A friend of mine uses a Crate Power Block as a power amp for one side of the stereo out of his Laney preamp, and he has a great tone.  So if your Crate has an effects loop then you might get decent results plugging the GX-100 mono out into the return of your existing amp.  The real benefit of having a FRFR cab is that the extended high end allows the frequency responses of different speakers to be emulated.  IMO Boss gear is much more oriented to sounding =good= than sounding accurate so you might find it less important to have that extended high end than you would if you had a Helix or an Axe FX.

Thanks !!

All the patches now have the default IR sim, which IMHO is good. If I go to FRFR I will keep the patches as they are. But if I go to an real cab? How could I disable all IR sims for all patches at once ?  Is this doable ? Should I maintain a different set of patches ? which is highly non-practical ...

arkieboy

If you go to page 5 of your reference manual in the 'getting ready' section, it shows you how to select the output setting for the GX-100.  You'll need to set it to something that has 'return' in the description - I don't know enough about your Crate to be more specific.  If it sounds good, it is good!

That ought to work, but as you get to know the unit you might decide you like something better.

If you have a proper FRFR cab, you should select 'line phones'  
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

panixgr

Quote from: arkieboy on January 16, 2024, 08:10:00 AMIf you go to page 5 of your reference manual in the 'getting ready' section, it shows you how to select the output setting for the GX-100.  You'll need to set it to something that has 'return' in the description - I don't know enough about your Crate to be more specific.  If it sounds good, it is good!

That ought to work, but as you get to know the unit you might decide you like something better.

If you have a proper FRFR cab, you should select 'line phones' 

Yes, thanks, I know how to select output. But the question is, how easy is it to switch from amp/return (IR enabled) to FRFR (IR disabled). My crate has no return, this is almost so broken I cannot remember when it last operated normally.

Crate G40XL, in the back it looks like this :

<iframe src="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KkX9luUe2vqnbXy5zXk039cMTtsdft_R/preview" width="640" height="480" allow="autoplay"></iframe>

It has an "output" and an "input" socket. (RCA, so I need an adapter)
I guess the "return" must be the "output"?

arkieboy

That's the send and return of a spring reverb tank I think.  IIRC there's a good deal of EQ and amplification on that circuit.  I don't think that's suitable.  But I'm not sure.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

Elantric

Quote from: arkieboy on January 16, 2024, 10:49:10 AMThat's the send and return of a spring reverb tank I think.  IIRC there's a good deal of EQ and amplification on that circuit.  I don't think that's suitable.  But I'm not sure.
Correct - Reverb Tank Send/return is not suitable

panixgr

Thank you! This amp is long gone out of order, it plays 1 in 10 attempts.

arkieboy

Quote from: panixgr on January 16, 2024, 09:33:19 AMYes, thanks, I know how to select output. But the question is, how easy is it to switch from amp/return (IR enabled) to FRFR (IR disabled). My crate has no return, this is almost so broken I cannot remember when it last operated normally.
What I was trying to say is that output select has default EQ profiles that =should= account for the differing characteristics of amplification systems and mean you can just simply design your sounds on headphones or studio monitors and they will transfer to your rehearsal room.

As you get more familiar with the unit, you have the gear that you want, and you get settled into a pattern of working, you might find that you want more control.  On the other hand, this approach has been used by Roland since before the VG99 so it probably does a reasonable job.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

Boisdelac

I would use Stereo only on stage. For the FOH application real Stereo is impossible, because the audience never stands exactly between the left and the right FOH speakers.

Therefore use a pair of FRFR monitors (e.g. Headrush FRFR 108 or Yamaha DBR 10) on stage and combine the line outputs of these with a line signal combiner (e.g. Millenium SML 21) to a mono signal an send this to the FOH.

arkieboy

Quote from: Boisdelac on January 17, 2024, 03:00:35 AMFOH application real Stereo is impossible
You definitely wouldn't want to have your stereo guitar panned completely left and right - it would sound terrible to anyone not stood in the centre of the venue.

But you can use it to subtly spread the sound of the instrument across the stage, and separate any delay component from the core signal for clarity.  That's what my engineers say they're doing - apparently my guitar is normally panned something like 40L-10R.

Of course, what your FoH engineer does with your signal once the gig starts has nothing to do with you!! :-)
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

Boisdelac

40L/10R means that the people on the right side of your stage won't hear you not as good as the people on left side.

arkieboy

Quote from: Boisdelac on January 17, 2024, 04:37:44 AM40L/10R means that the people on the right side of your stage won't hear you not as good as the people on left side.
Managing that kind of compromise is why we employ a sound engineer.

It's going to depend on the complexity of your music - if you're a three piece band where everyone has their own bit of the sonic spectrum, then it's not necessary.  Some slight stereo spread I'd argue is important if you have bigger bands, or bands with keyboards/synthesisers.

But each to their own
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

panixgr

We used to be a 7-member band, 2 guitars, 1 bass, 1 drummer, 1 keyboard player, and two singers one of whom playing guitar occasionally. So it is really hard for me to cut in the mix. Now (since yesterday) we are 6. One singer quit.

IMH1234

Quote from: arkieboy on January 17, 2024, 05:26:21 AMManaging that kind of compromise is why we employ a sound engineer.

Stereo is a real pain from a sound engineering perspective, both live and in the studio. Firstly most stereo is not actually stereo in the true sense - i.e. a signal captured in such a way as to enable its reproduction to realistically preserving its spacial elements. Outside of classical performances this is rarely an objective for live sound and to a great extent not a priority in most modern recorded music. More common is use of mono sources receiving stereo effects which can really mess up the sound where the listener is not ideally positioned.

From a practical perspective I would expect almost any live sound engineer will just fold a stereo source down to mono and then balance/pan it in the mix to meet the room conditions - quietly not mentioning this to the guitarist for fear of an irrational argument about why the sound of their overly complex wet/dry setup and meticulously programmed strymon/eventide infinite reverb has been violated :)  Even stuff like sampled pianos make little sense to keep as stereo live as different parts of the room will often experience issues with relative balance that can be addressed in mono.

Phase correlation issues can create headaches when summing to mono but the only real use cases for LR stereo for most live situations is to create ping pong special effects or for creating a really intimate feel in a small space

Even in the studio most stuff is easier to deal with when sources are treated as mono and panned - although there is a case for true stereo reproduction of certain instruments, most stuff that sounds great in isolation with big modern stereo effects benefits from width reduction in the mix.

panixgr

Quote from: IMH1234 on January 17, 2024, 03:43:35 PMStereo is a real pain from a sound engineering perspective, both live and in the studio. Firstly most stereo is not actually stereo in the true sense - i.e. a signal captured in such a way as to enable its reproduction to realistically preserving its spacial elements. Outside of classical performances this is rarely an objective for live sound and to a great extent not a priority in most modern recorded music. More common is use of mono sources receiving stereo effects which can really mess up the sound where the listener is not ideally positioned.

From a practical perspective I would expect almost any live sound engineer will just fold a stereo source down to mono and then balance/pan it in the mix to meet the room conditions - quietly not mentioning this to the guitarist for fear of an irrational argument about why the sound of their overly complex wet/dry setup and meticulously programmed strymon/eventide infinite reverb has been violated :)  Even stuff like sampled pianos make little sense to keep as stereo live as different parts of the room will often experience issues with relative balance that can be addressed in mono.

Phase correlation issues can create headaches when summing to mono but the only real use cases for LR stereo for most live situations is to create ping pong special effects or for creating a really intimate feel in a small space

Even in the studio most stuff is easier to deal with when sources are treated as mono and panned - although there is a case for true stereo reproduction of certain instruments, most stuff that sounds great in isolation with big modern stereo effects benefits from width reduction in the mix.

But I notice that the best sounds in gx-100 are the stereo ones. Mono are meh.