SY1000 now or XX-800 future?

[pasha811]

SY1000 prices had gone up due to Euro / USD convertion rate and inflaction in EU.
Now a new SY1000 costs 1099 - 1150 euros. I have found a B-Stock that's 1000.
However the new revolution has started with GK5 and the 800 series.
For now I might not need GM-800 so looking for SY1000 but soon a XX-800 member (GP-800? VG-800?) might arrive..
What our collective wisdom suggests?

I am Curious
Thanks
Pasha

[arkieboy]

I'm not yet convinced by the GK-5: there is no ecosystem; no internal kit; no controllers on the guitar (although I could get away without this); early reports are it doesn't sound good with the existing waveshaping tech in the SY and VG systems.  But the cabling is better.

On the other hand the SY is a great unit, works now, works with GK serial gear (it's a fantastic partner for the GM-800), has amps and effects approaching if not equal to the GT-1000.  But I bought my unit pre-pandemic and I paid a lot less for it. If I didn't have it at the moment, but I had a GM-800 I'd be looking at a used GP10 to use alongside my Helix.  Or maybe a Variax.

I think the combined cost of the new GK Serial SY (which is of course speculation ware) and a GT-1000 core will probably exceed that of the SY currently.  So if you don't have your amp modelling covered, you would get from now until the next release at the cutting edge, and you would probably have spent less money overall.  And I doubt the next unit will supersede the SY-1000 by that much, and it might split the functionality still further into multiple units.

I think you have to judge these things right now and not bother too much about ifs and buts.  And concentrate on making the best music with the gear you have.

(Feel free to remind me of that the next time I have GAS   )

[Brak(E)man]

My 2 cents
If I where to buy something today it would be gk3 ( or preferably gk2 ) internal +
SY-1000 (and maybe a GR33) , not many meters behind the 800 sound and playing wise)
The GK 5 misses out on so many levels imho, so it's a big no for me.
The 800 seems too complicated with all the buying of sounds etc etc and the serial cable follow up , well that remains to be seen.
The sounds I've heard are ok but personally I'm not looking to play something on the guitar that I can play (or have someone play ) on a keyboard.

The SY is a guitarsynth in my view, not the gm800 which is a rack unit playable with a guitar to MIDI controller. I had that setup in the late 80ths early 90ths.
D-550 , Waldorf microwave etc etc , not going down that route again.
It hasn't really progressed much since the 80ths to be truthful.

[pasha811]

I think you have to judge these things right now and not bother too much about ifs and buts.  And concentrate on making the best music with the gear you have.

The last statement is pure gold. Thank you!

[arkieboy]

The 800 seems too complicated with all the buying of sounds etc etc

It is, but it's also very, very similar to the GR-33.  The difference is you can populate the GM-800 with your own basic tones, which we could only dream about with the 33.  This, and the footprint, are the big differentiators.  If the sounds in the 33 are fine and you're happy with the amount of stage it takes up, then there is no point upgrading.

If you want that flexibility, you have the discipline to spend a month programming furiously, or you don't mind the cost of the pro subscription, its all well worth it.

The SY is a guitarsynth in my view, not the gm800 which is a rack unit playable with a guitar to MIDI controller.

Completely agree.  The SY-1000 is my main unit and source of inspiration, the GM-800 is more of a production tool

I had that setup in the late 80ths early 90ths.  D-550 , Waldorf microwave etc etc , not going down that route again.

:-D

I almost bought a Microwave, but decided to stick with my Oberheim.  I did have a D-550 though, loved it to bits!

[pasha811]

My 2 cents
If I where to buy something today it would be gk3 ( or preferably gk2 ) internal +
SY-1000 (and maybe a GR33) , not many meters behind the 800 sound and playing wise)
The GK 5 misses out on so many levels imho, so it's a big no for me.
The 800 seems too complicated with all the buying of sounds etc etc and the serial cable follow up , well that remains to be seen.
The sounds I've heard are ok but personally I'm not looking to play something on the guitar that I can play (or have someone play ) on a keyboard.

The SY is a guitarsynth in my view, not the gm800 which is a rack unit playable with a guitar to MIDI controller. I had that setup in the late 80ths early 90ths.
D-550 , Waldorf microwave etc etc , not going down that route again.
It hasn't really progressed much since the 80ths to be truthful.

Thanks for reply!
One of the reasons why I am not interested for the moment into getting GM-800 is that I have no intention to use Guitar To MIDI in a Live situation. I have a DAW based setup and with all I got (VG99+JV1010) plus several plugins (Zebra, Triple Cheese, Podolsky, Ableton Suite) I am full of options in the Guitar to MIDI area and tracking is very good. What has changed since the 80's is the computing power. I had the luck to get an Hard Discounted Mac Studio last year and latency it's so low that is ridiculous. Running at 128 I have 6ms audio latency. Moreover I have Midi Guitar 2 and it's working very good for solos. Guitars are not the best 'controllers' for MIDI but I think Boss has nailed it with the known limitations.

Your reply confirms my feelings after hours of posts reading and youtube watching about GM-800.
A guitar with GM-800 and GK5 it's now better than we had back in the day but not very much better...
Hence why SY- make it a 300 or 1000 or even a 200 if I am shallow on money, just to add some Synth Solo sounds to my VG99 or GP10 (which I use live) might be the direction.   

[pasha811]

This video is very promising about the future of MIDI Guitar.

[Jim Williams]

I think Boss will be moving forward with the development of the GK5 and serial cable. Boss and Roland have always had an eye on the future, and they openly said upon the release of the GM 800 that was the direction of new products to come. It is likely we will see an internal GK 5 or even a GK 5-2. All the users have been very open about the need for knobs and switches and maybe an internal kit may include them. The other product I can see is a new SY floorboard in a smaller form factor. I can see them working at getting smaller and mor powerful. Winter NAMN is right around the corner, and they might show a product that won't be available for like 3 months and the demos will look great and we will all complain about what is not included. The one thing I want from them is an upgradeable product with frequent updates.

[pasha811]

I think Roland and Boss have developed a future winner here.
The new GK5 and Serial cable architecture is an expandable one. Things like the UM-20 might become things of the past. Smaller units with more power that can be driven by a single Pickup. GM-800 can be cascaded with the next XX-800 in the series. Whatever will be. I imagine a future hexa-guitar ecosystem with different parts that one can compose to obtain the 'dream' pedalboard. The move to the Cloud is happening in IT and Roland could leverage the cloud and subscription model to let Musician download and use what they need. We can experience things like 'Subscribe Nylon Guitar Model' - 'Subscribe Super Strat Model' and so on. Unfortunately, at present, we're living as the transition is happening but the end of the journey can be very interesting!

[arkieboy]

We can experience things like 'Subscribe Nylon Guitar Model' - 'Subscribe Super Strat Model' and so on.

(Cryptography infrastructure is not my expertise, but I think I know enough to comment.  Happy to be corrected)

I don't think we'll have subscribe on hardware.  I think what they are doing with lifetime license purchase and only allow purchases from one account on an instrument is the way they will go.

The software requirements for lifetime license purchase are easy - you have a digital signature on the download with simple public/private key infrastructure validated on installation.  Roland installs their public key on the hardware, and keeps the secret private key on their server so it's really difficult for someone to crack the digital rights management.  If it goes wrong, the sounds simply fail to install - you fix that with a support call in downtime.

Subscriptions expire, and expiry means you need some kind of timer/clock in the hardware.  There are all sorts of cryptographic exploits around spoofing the clock.  Most of the solutions require you to connect to a timer server to validate that the timer is correct - the box phones home.  Imagine your GM-800 having to phone home when you're onstage with a few thousand people in the audience swamping the mobile connection.  (there is probably more, but that's a really simple one that's easy to grasp)

Content could be installed on the hardware that works one day in the rehearsal room and doesn't work the next when you're on stage.  A couple of horror stories about that would certainly dampen sales.

[Elantric]

I think Boss will be moving forward with the development of the GK5 and serial cable. Boss and Roland have always had an eye on the future, and they openly said upon the release of the GM 800 that was the direction of new products to come. It is likely we will see an internal GK 5 or even a GK 5-2. All the users have been very open about the need for knobs and switches and maybe an internal kit may include them. The other product I can see is a new SY floorboard in a smaller form factor. I can see them working at getting smaller and mor powerful. Winter NAMN is right around the corner, and they might show a product that won't be available for like 3 months and the demos will look great and we will all complain about what is not included. The one thing I want from them is an upgradeable product with frequent updates.

Apparently Roland/ Boss is not attending 2024 Winter NAMM
https://www.namm.org/thenammshow/directory

My last NAMM was Winter 2020, and many manufacturers today skip NAMM , and employ online social media to accomplish their marketing and expanding dealer network goals

[pasha811]

(Cryptography infrastructure is not my expertise, but I think I know enough to comment.  Happy to be corrected)

I don't think we'll have subscribe on hardware.  I think what they are doing with lifetime license purchase and only allow purchases from one account on an instrument is the way they will go.

Sorry for being too futuristic. It's my IT background and the Job I have.
In any case the Automotive industry to reduce costs is thinking to have a model that enables some features of your car via App as explained here : Future of cars
The cable of GK5 is derived from Automotive... hence why I was overthinking about future alike delivery models. Cloud is subscription and you can subscribe (enable) features that are common in all hardware boxes. Software is the soul of Hardware and Soul can be made a pay on the go item. (This is pure evil...)

[Elantric]

In any case the Automotive industry to reduce costs is thinking to have a model that enables some features of your car via App as explained here

Its already arrived , and was the main reason Samsung purchased Harmon Karden ( JBL, Infinity, dBx, ) as those brands have existing Automotive manufacturer Contracts for integrating in smart cars

More
https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/auto-giants-like-bmw-gm-and-toyota-make-drivers-subscribe-for-basic-features/

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/07/car-subscription-fees-unlock-features-new-cars

 

[pasha811]

Its already arrived , and was the main reason Samsung purchased Harmon Karden ( JBL, Infinity, dBx, ) as those brands have existing Automotive manufacturer Contracts for integrating in smart cars

More
https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/auto-giants-like-bmw-gm-and-toyota-make-drivers-subscribe-for-basic-features/

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/07/car-subscription-fees-unlock-features-new-cars

 

Thanks. It's a spooky move isn't it?

[arkieboy]

Its already arrived , and was the main reason Samsung purchased Harmon Karden ( JBL, Infinity, dBx, ) as those brands have existing Automotive manufacturer Contracts for integrating in smart cars

More
https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/auto-giants-like-bmw-gm-and-toyota-make-drivers-subscribe-for-basic-features/

https://www.axios.com/2023/09/07/car-subscription-fees-unlock-features-new-cars

I know this isn't exactly how you're both arguing this point, but ...

I'm quite happy to pay a day's rental on a car (that maybe drove itself and) parked in my street.  Or a fare for it to drive me somewhere, and wait until I'm done and drive me home.

I'm happy to subscribe to a music app within =my= car that I own.  Doesn't stop me from getting to my location, which is what I =bought the car for=.  I have the option of setting my AirPods to transparent and using my phone.

I'm not going to =buy= a car that one day decides it won't let me use a motorway/freeway/autobahn.

And this is the case with something like the GM-800.  I'm happy to rent Zenology Pro (or Galaxias) in preproduction and tracking for a studio project.  In lots of respects that makes huge amounts of sense, because operating systems are improved, the software that runs on it needs to be maintained, and I don't need the software I'd like to use to produce an album week-in-week-out.

Moreover if I buy a computer from a third party, then I have a choice to go to Arturia or Cherry Audio if I don't want to go to Roland/Boss.

But if I download a sound to my =propriety= hardware, then it better be mine in perpetuity.

And in this, I think Roland have got that bit of Zen-CORE exactly right.