The Bumping road to VG99 Editor on Apple Silicon (UTM vs Crossover vs Old Mac)

[pasha811]

In my never ending search for optimizing my VG99 with Apple Silicon setup I tried UTM. (I know about excellent Gumtown's editor but I was not able to make it work in a cascaded MIDI devices setup, it works great with direct connection to Roland UM-One MKII MIDI to USB cable)
For those not acquainted with UTM it's QEmu packaged for humans. https://mac.getutm.app/. Qemu it's an emulator: it can emulate X86 on ARM. Installing Win7 (freeware now from Internet Archive) was a breeze and all worked fine.
However, I had to wait MacOs Ventura 13.5.2 because it supports shared directories between host and guest but only on paper as I found out. Sharing is supported via WebDAV with Spice Tools... but... it didn't work as expected. GitHub is your friend and a lot of knowledge is there! So I was able to fix it by creating an ISO image file with VG99 driver and Editor plus the latest spice tools. After mounting the ISO on the guest OS (Win7) all installed perfectly.
Once VG99 drivers were installed I tried VG99 connection with VG99 Editor and the familiar screen appeared! (a little on the slow slide as expected). I was able to read from VG99.
However connection with VG99 was unstable and unreliable so even this test didn't work for me.  :-( I will investigate further but as a second priority.
Just wanted to share my findings and tries. I can test with Windows XP as a last try because Win8 and 10 and 11 are not freeware. I will also investigate settings to find a more stable one. The Editor freezes at times and also the Win7 VM freezes. More to go...       

[Vaultnaemsae]

I'm on Sonoma now and the VG-99 Editor/Librarian are still working under the latest version of CrossOver. It might save you some headaches.

[pasha811]

Hi Vaultnaemsae,

I am your follower about Crossover. It is my last resort Item. However.. it's 79 Euros.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NYDL99HtxiYffROF6uzJ3N_0SJZa3N_T/view?usp=sharing

I have an old Macbook 2012 spiced up with SSD and 16GB RAM running Mojave.
By using the share screen feature I can have it on my main desk when working for free 
So far that is my best try and it works very well. I had to set aside my BCF2000 from behringer as it occupied the same space where the Macbook is now. During music creation I need access to VG99 more than to a Mackie Emulation control for Ableton Live. I'll try with that, if I get bored Crossover might be the next stop.

Ciao
Paolo

[Vaultnaemsae]

It's not cheap but I use it often so I consider it to have value. It would have more utility for me if I also used it for other applications, but I don't. I had hoped it would enable me to use the Liquid Foot editor also but that wouldn't work.

I suppose, if you were motivated, you could acquire it at zero cost...not that I'm endorsing that by any means.

Another option: I've experimented with running the VG-99 on my old MacBook (with an older OS) and transmitting network audio back to the M1 Mac via Dante or Blue Cat Connector. Both work fine but it's all a bit finicky.

[pasha811]

It's not cheap but I use it often so I consider it to have value

Thanks for your reply.
I will gave it a try anyway, it's on my list. All in all Codeweavers recommends the try and buy approach. I was kind of pushed away by the happenings you shared here about updates breaking the setup and I want to avoid any disruption. When I am in front of Ableton Live I want to compose, enjoy, explore not fixing things.
That's why at the moment the setup I am trying is the best so far even if it's finicky as I have to turn on two computers and share screen. I am trying to automate that so that it's faster. If working 100% of the times CrossOver would be even faster and less troublesome. Is your VG99 connected via USB to Crossover?

Thanks
Paolo

[Vaultnaemsae]

VG-99 DIN I/O is connected to my MIDI interface via a UM-One Mk2. Could be connected directly to the computer though with the same result.

Give the trial a go and see how you like it

[pasha811]

Well, I am in try & buy mode now :-)
After first installation it works fine. I have created a Bottle Win7 64.
I have tried to install the VG99 USB driver but it raised an error then after installing Librarian and Editor I noticed that in MIDI Setup my MacOS devices were shown... so I gave it a go and it worked.
At times it's jerky (delays and little freezes) but it does what it needs to do I can edit and write patches in my VG99.
Compared to my method is faster (it lives inside my Mac, no need to turn on another computer) but the user experience is stained by lags. I will use it, the trial is 14 days.

Thanks for suggestions,
Cheers
Paolo

[aliensporebomb]

Well, I am in try & buy mode now :-)
After first installation it works fine. I have created a Bottle Win7 64.
I have tried to install the VG99 USB driver but it raised an error then after installing Librarian and Editor I noticed that in MIDI Setup my MacOS devices were shown... so I gave it a go and it worked.
At times it's jerky (delays and little freezes) but it does what it needs to do I can edit and write patches in my VG99.
Compared to my method is faster (it lives inside my Mac, no need to turn on another computer) but the user experience is stained by lags. I will use it, the trial is 14 days.

Thanks for suggestions,
Cheers
Paolo

What Apple Silicon Mac model do you have?

[pasha811]

What Apple Silicon Mac model do you have?

Mac Studio 2022 the base model, 32GB RAM 512 GB SSD and a ton of ports 
It has been a magic retail Rebate of 31 Dec 2022.. irresistible. What retailers do to empty their inventory is awesome at times   

[pasha811]

I report progress with Cross Over!
There was a magic parameter in the Cross over system to enhance sync. MIDI is a realtime thing.
Since then I was able to edit VG99 patches without major showstoppers.
At startup it takes time but after that the maximum wait (mainly save and open patch) is 5/8 seconds. I had only one abrupt crash but it was my fault.
My setup is a cascaded MIDI Setup so it cannot use Roland UM-ONE MKII USB to MIDI Interface.
VG99 MIDI OUT into JV1010 MIDI IN then JV1010 MIDI THRU into UMC404HD MIDI IN (Audio MIDI USB Interface) then UMC404HD MIDI OUT (acts also as MIDI THRU) into VG99 MIDI IN. JV1010 has DEVICE ID = 1 while VG99 17.With this setup I can control VG99 and JV1010 from my DAW (Program Change and CC) and use VG99 Editor. (I have not a software to change JV1010 Device ID). JV1010 must be turned on for VG99 editor to work.
One thing I have noticed is that when Ableton Live starts, VG99 Editor crashes I think because they concur to the same USB Audio MIDI interface.
Cross Over works fine with AKAI LPD8 USB controller. Soundiver JV/XP does not work... it might be that it wants JV1010 connected via MIDI OUT not MIDI THRU.

All in all my method (screenshare via an old 2012 Macbook with Mojave) works a tad better as no lags (despite the screenshare) and ability to change VG99 Patches while DAW is running (because VG99 in that configuration is attached to Macbook via USB). If I will be able to make JV1010 editor work via Codeweaver's Crossover that will be a major yes to buy it. I still have an handful of days for my try and buy. Let's see.

Hope this helps
Ciao
Pasha

[Vaultnaemsae]

There was a magic parameter in the Cross over system to enhance sync. MIDI is a realtime thing.

Good to hear that you are making progress. I'm wondering what the "magic setting" is? I didn't have to do any configuration, though our MIDi configurations are somewhat different.

Also, you mentioned the failed VG-99 driver in another post. I'm a little unclear about this.

I am not using the VG-99 driver in either macOS 14 (for obvious reasons) or the virtualized Windows bottle under CrossOver. In fact, I don't even connect the VG via USB these days (though at last check it worked for audio only in the standard driver mode).

Just for comparison, I've never had any problem with Live 11 crashing CrossOver. CrossOver has never crashed, as far as I recall.

[pasha811]

Also, you mentioned the failed VG-99 driver in another post. I'm a little unclear about this.

Let me try to explain.
That was my fault. I have used the VG99 driver when testing UTM and tried to do the same with Crossover. I was mistaken.
Crossover is Wine and Wine is not meant to act as a fully fledged Windows installation (not like UTM). So it makes sense that VG99 USB Driver cannot install there. What Crossover does is that it leverages the guest OS (MacOS) configuration and devices. Wine is no virtualization. It is a real time translator and provides in the Bottle the necessary environment to make a Wintel binary to run. Interestingly enough my UMCHD404 Audio Midi Interface is Core Audio and Core Midi compliant when running under MacOS but needs a driver when running in Windows...
Thanks to Crossover intelligent internal architecture UMC404HD does not need a driver because it lives attached to MacOS (Coreaudio and Coremidi compliant) and it is shared with the Bottle.
About the magic setting : Run Crossover, click on the Bottle name on the left panel and in the right panel you will see a list of settings. Esync is now on (default is off) it is used for games mainly but it improved my experience a lot. However it might be the cause of the crash when using Ableton Live at the same time. By googling Esync you'll find that sometimes it causes problems. In any case it is perfect for me as it makes VG99 editor works fine.
My setup is complex compared to yours. The path to VG99 for you is clean, USB to MIDI straight in the box. In my case I have to take care about Device ID, MIDI paths on three devices. It is sure this is also the cause why the same setup works here and in my old Macbook 2012 compared to excellent Gumtown VG99 Floorboard Editor that works only if I hook Roland UM-ONE MKII and connect to VG99 directly.... but that's another story.

Hope this clarifies and sorry for any misunderstanding. I am sharing my journey because I love VG99 after so many years and it still surprises me as I progress in getting new sounds from it.

Have a nice Weekend!
Pasha 
 

[pasha811]

UPDATE : This is out of context but it might be useful. By connecting MIDI OUT of JV1010 into MIDI IN of UMC404HD in the previous post example... Soundiver JV/XP works under Cross Over. It's complicated as hell and the worst GUI I have ever seen.. but I can manipulate JV1010 patches. So when using VG99 EDITOR I have to restore JV1010 MIDI THRU to UMC404HD MIDI IN.
JV1010 is a very old machine I should have the manual somewhere in the house. I was thinking (wrongly) that MIDI OUT could have also worked as MIDI THRU while is not. MIDI THRU as we know echoes MIDI IN but does not add any data from MIDI OUT. I have to check in the specs.

So Cross Over makes the following abandoned software work :

1. VG99 EDITOR
2. VG99 LIBRARIAN (still to test in depth)
3. LPD8 (Akai controller V1)
4. JV1010 Editor (Emagic Sounddiver JV/XP)

Well... I am positively surprised.
Now go on testing UTM :-)

[Vaultnaemsae]

So, I turned on the Esync setting to see what would happen, let the Win 7 bottle reboot and lost all connection with my VG! Messed around for ages getting it back online ultimately had to disengage Esync and reboot my computer. I guess that it doesn't work across the board but I can't explain why. Anyway, back in action again.

[pasha811]

So, I turned on the Esync setting to see what would happen, let the Win 7 bottle reboot and lost all connection with my VG! Messed around for ages getting it back online ultimately had to disengage Esync and reboot my computer. I guess that it doesn't work across the board but I can't explain why. Anyway, back in action again.

That's incredibile. I am on latest Codeweaver and latest Ventura.Good you make it back working!

[pasha811]

I report consistent failure and crashes using UTM.
The same happen with VG99 Editor and JV1010 Editor.
Although launching as soon as MIDI communication begins the UTM Win7 VM becomes unstable and freezes or crashes.
So, UTM although promising seems not to be a viable solution to run Legacy Hardware editor software. I report success with AKAI LPD8 controller. The amount of data transferred is so small compared to the other two that maybe I have found a possible reason why it works. It's only placing 1 CC or 1 Note or 1 Program Change into a location.
So far the only two methods that work are CrossOver Windows by Codeweavers, based on Wine and .. an old 2012 Macbook with 10.14 accessed via screen sharing from the main machine. The Macbook solution compared to CrossOver is snappier and faster. I observe that transferring Patches from VG99 to can Librarian takes a lot more, as much as three times more. Tested with 1,5,10 patches and it's consistent. I avoided testing with full VG99 patches as that is long anyway. I haven't a final verdict yet. I have a couple of try & buy days left with CrossOver and I have some little tests to carry on. 

[pasha811]

I have recorded two videos to highlight the differences in terms of performance and reliability comparing CrossOver to Macbook via screenshare to main Mac machine.

Macbook 2012, macos 10.14 via screenshare (USB connection) Screenshare

Crossover : Crossover

During video recording Crossover VG99 had problems. That happens at random so I was lucky to capture it on screen. That is not your usual experience. It works slowly without nag screens most of the times.

Pls notice the difference in speed and loading the patch list. Moreover, when using Crossover, I have noticed  (also happens at random) that after saving patches , while VG99 is ok, the editor mix up the previous patch with the new (images of instruments and patch number doe snot correspond to what is shown in VG99 display).

So if you do not own old hardware you have only two paths: Gumtown's excellent editor (better with a straight connection to VG99 via Roland UM-ONE MKII ) or Crossover. Pls keep in mind that my MIDI setup is 'complex' so YMMV.

Tick tock... 2 days left... 

[Vaultnaemsae]

Man, that's terribly slow and choppy performance in your CrossOver video. The performance I get from the VG-99 Editor on CrossOver (M1 MacBook Air) is comparable to the VG-99 connected directly to my old MacBook running the macOS version of the VG-99 Editor on Mojave with the Roland USB driver installed.

My VG-99 is still connected to a DIN-to-USB adaptor --> Audio Interface's USB MIDI host port --> Virtual MIDI port on macOS. I guess it's still simpler than your setup. Anyway, I'm really happy with it.

[pasha811]

Vaultnaemsae, thanks so much for your post.

Retested Crossover:
I have connected the VG99 with Roland UM ONE MKII - directly - no MIDI device cascaded. I observe that speed is comparable to native VG99 editor Macbook with Mojave.
I have connected the VG99 to MIDI IN/OUT (DIN) of my Audio Card.  I observe that speed is comparable to the choppy one shown in the video.

So I have a MIDI latency problem. The UMC404HD from BEHRINGER is an USB Audio card with MIDI IN and OUT. It works great with Program Changes and CC but not so much with Sysex.
It's not the cascaded MIDI devices but the implementation of MIDI in my audio card.

However, I'd like more info on  "My VG-99 is still connected to a DIN-to-USB adaptor --> Audio Interface's USB MIDI host port --> Virtual MIDI port on macOS" as I have never used Virtual MIDI in macOS.

Tick - Tock - One day left! ;-)

Pls detail all components:

MIDI DIN-to-USB adaptor : Which one? 
Audio Interface's USB MIDI host port : Which Audio Interface ?
Virtual MIDI port on macOS : is this for internal Routing of MIDI data?

Thanks in advance,
Pasha


EDIT as I think have identified the bottleneck.

[Vaultnaemsae]

VG-99 DIN ports <-> Um-one Mk 2 <-> iConnectAUDIO4+ (USB MIDI host port) <-> Mac

The virtual MIDI thing isn't very interesting -- and maybe it's not even the right word. I just don't like the way the iCA4+ ports get registered by software on macOS so I make a virtual device in the audio MIDI setup and route the iCA4+'s VG-99 MIDI port in and out of that virtual device so I can simply name it "VG-99" -- When I open the VG-99 software I can select VG-99 as the device. Some applications (like Live 11) still see the original name of the iCA4+'s port though.

The reason I use this interface is to enable direct control of my hardware with multiple class-compliant MIDI controllers all connected to the USB hub -- even if I'm not using a computer. Also the VG-99 is connected to the iCA4+ so I can record at 48kHz/24-bit (rather than at 44.1kHz/16-bit over USB).

[pasha811]

Well, I am looking to this MIDI Thru device :

CME PRO THRU

Theoretically I can connect VG99 to the CME BOX so that the signal is splitted to JV1010 and UM-ONE.
That will give me direct connection to JV1010 while using UM ONE for VG99 at the same time. Moreover, if I need to play JV1010 from the DAW (via a proper master keyboard) I could.
VG99 is configured so that MIDI OUT mirrors MIDI IN, acting as a MIDI THRU.

I need to investigate but it looks promising, what do you think?

Thanks
Pasha

[Vaultnaemsae]

CME stuff is pretty good. I have a few of their products and use them all on a regular basis. Worth looking into.

[pasha811]

CME stuff is pretty good. I have a few of their products and use them all on a regular basis. Worth looking into.

Thanks man!

[pasha811]

Update : I have tested UTM with UM ONE MKII ... I wasn't able to install the Windows Driver provided by Roland. A Conflict exists between the UN ONE hooked to macos Ventura and UTM. Experiment finished. UTM is not suitable for what I need.

Thinking about MIDI connections, then I had an idea : VG99 MIDI OUT to JV1010 MIDI IN -> JV1010 MIDI THRU to UM ONE MIDI IN -> UM ONE MIDI OUT to VG99 MIDI IN. this way I could have had :

1. VG99 triggering JV1010 directly and recording MIDI into DAW
2. VG99 able to drive Plugins (Live 11) and Recording MIDI into DAW
3. Keyboard able to drive JV1010 via Live 11 MIDI Routing (VG99 has to be switched on)
4. Only drawback I cannot edit JV1010 (working on it but lower priority)

The good news is that now Gumtown's editor works! So Gumtown's editor works in a cascaded MIDI Setup unless you have a very slow MIDI port in between (in my case the Audio Card with MIDI - good for notes and cc not so for SYSEX).

Then... all of a sudden, 1h ago I found a message from codewavers 'BADASS NIGHT' promo. a 70% discount!
Now I am a Crossover regular customer.

Thanks Vaultnaemsae for helping!

Cheers
Pasha