[SOLVED] Tracking Comparison: GR-33 vs. GM-800

[stephenseifert]

I repeatedly picked the D-string at the 12th fret. From a Graphtech Ghost Hexpander, the signals ran out a 13-pin into a V-Guitar GKP-2 Breakout Box. This allowed me to simultaneously send to a GR-33 and a GKC-AD GK Converter. The GKC-AD went into the GM-800.  I did my best to choose tones on both devices that started with really sharp attacks. I also recorded the audio from my instrument through an AKG 414.

The GR-33 showed about a 12 millisecond delay behind the microphone. The GM-800 showed about a 16 millisecond delay behind the microphone. While there were some variations, these numbers came up the most. So, it looks like the GM-800 is about 4 milliseconds slower than the GR-33?

I realize I may need to re-do this. Any suggestions? My initial impression of the GM-800 is it handles what I'm playing more gracefully than the GR-33. The GM-800 has more useful settings. So many good things about it, but am I right about the GM-800 being a little slower? I wish I could do the same test with the Fishman TP.

I'm trying to figure out if I should keep the GM-800 or send it back. I get a lot of use out of the GR-33.

[BROCKSTAR]

My initial impression of the GM-800 is it handles what I'm playing more gracefully than the GR-33. The GM-800 has more useful settings. So many good things about it

That right there is all you need to know You'll regret sending it back I think, especially when it's too early and you need to play it more.

[jassy]

Would be interesting if you can test also other notes.

[stephenseifert]

I've gone through many tests now, and I realize I could be wrong, but I truly believe the Roland GR-33 is better for me. I went back and forth, and the GR-33 keeps responding better and actually sounding more musical for what I do. I REALLY want to like the GM-800, but I just can't. The guy who sold it to me, someone I trust a lot, is disappointed I'm giving up so quickly. He says there's no way I know every inch of that device in such a short time, and he's probably right. I've gone through all the settings using both a Graphtech Ghost pickup and the GK-3. I've been through the manuals. I've tweaked everything. Man, after everything I've been through, including comparing to the GR-55, I have to say, this GR-33 is pretty good. I want something that beats it, but I haven't found it yet. I recommend everyone try the GM-800. Put it through its paces. Prove me wrong. I would LOVE that. I'm shipping this back tomorrow. Back to making music. 

[BROCKSTAR]

I've gone through many tests now, and I realize I could be wrong, but I truly believe the Roland GR-33 is better for me. I went back and forth, and the GR-33 keeps responding better and actually sounding more musical for what I do. I REALLY want to like the GM-800, but I just can't. The guy who sold it to me, someone I trust a lot, is disappointed I'm giving up so quickly. He says there's no way I know every inch of that device in such a short time, and he's probably right. I've gone through all the settings using both a Graphtech Ghost pickup and the GK-3. I've been through the manuals. I've tweaked everything. Man, after everything I've been through, including comparing to the GR-55, I have to say, this GR-33 is pretty good. I want something that beats it, but I haven't found it yet. I recommend everyone try the GM-800. Put it through its paces. Prove me wrong. I would LOVE that. I'm shipping this back tomorrow. Back to making music. 

I don't have gr-33 right now but I used to have it like 3 or 4 times and to me the gm-800 is miles ahead in sound and dynamics and all the options it has and stuff compared to the gr-33. GR-33 is nice, but dated.

[germanicus]

16 milliseconds for d4 is slow.

Don't feel bad returning it, especially if you have done your due diligence, read the manuals, and done your time attempting to tweak the unit.

At the end of the day, its either a useful tool for you or not.

The fishman connect in another thread was getting 6msec at d4.

[chalicerok]

I don't have gr-33 right now but I used to have it like 3 or 4 times and to me the gm-800 is miles ahead in sound and dynamics and all the options it has and stuff compared to the gr-33. GR-33 is nice, but dated.

Have to agree.... Just takes a little more time to set up sensitivity, feel, low velocity, etc.on the gm800. But once it is dialed in right, works great and soundwise, it's miles above GR33. I have one of those for sale on Reverb right now. Already sold GI-20. Next will be my GR30 and GR50.

[stephenseifert]

I enjoy programming a DX7 WITHOUT an editor. I've been using Reaktor and Rack on a deep level for years. I've dabbled with PD and Max DSP. I have an audio engineering degree. (For whatever that's worth. lol) I LOVE reading manuals. I know the menus and settings quite well on the GR-33 and the VG-99. I spent hours going through the menus and settings on the GM-800. I have a Graphtech Ghost and a Roland GK-3. I believe they are set up well. On the GM-800, I tried the pickup setting Boss recommends, and I also tried the other settings. I did the same with the GK-3. I tried different kinds of sounds. I'm aware of how a slow attack can make it feel like the unit is responding slow even when it isn't. I'm familiar with the sensitivity/feel settings. I tried everything you're supposed to try. YES, I could be wrong about something, here. Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't my first rodeo.

I realize you need to play differently, and I believe I'm doing that well. I wasn't getting ghost notes or glitches. I perform regularly, and I believe I have pretty good technique. When I flatpick or strum really fast, the GM-800 is ALMOST as good as the GR-33 at tracking. I mean it's darn close, but there's a difference, and I can't understand why they can't at least make a new device function as well as a 20-year-old device. I measured the latency, and the GM-800 is almost always 4ms slower. I thought the 800 was handling things more gracefully, but after a lot more playing, the GR-33 was just reacting better to me.

Yes, the GM-800 has more complex sounds and better effects, but to say it's miles above the GR-33 is quite a stretch. Besides, I learned long ago that the more complex synth sounds aren't as usable. I prefer the simple ones. And then there's the matter of adjusting these sounds inside the box. You can't do that much. If you want to do proper sound design, you have to use your computer. I don't mind that so much, but when I'm playing with folks, I'd really like to be able to do more WITHOUT connecting to a computer.

From https://www.boss.info/us/products/gm-800/:

"...delivers tracking stability and expressive scope never before possible."

Really? Make me a believer. Please! I want this.

So, I still have this thing. It's boxed up, but if anyone has suggestions, I'll unbox it and try again. Let's just presume there's something I'm not getting right. I'm okay with that. So, what can I try?

And why am I writing this? Because I REALLY WANT TO LOVE AND USE THIS THING. I'm not a hater. I've been using Roland and Boss for years, and I'm a huge fan. I would love to find out I'm wrong about this thing. You know, when you buy something, you want it to be right, and you're willing to believe all kinds of things that might not be quite true. It's like the first couple weeks with a new girlfriend; You kind of can't see clearly. You want to believe she's perfect. I feel that with this device. So, please help? Anyone?   

[Jim Williams]

Look it does not matter what you use, you will like what you like. That is the only thing that matters, I can't make an informed decision yet because I haven't received my GK 5 yet. That will be the real test to use it as intended. I tested it with the FTP and got some good results with tracking, but I could not get it to work in mono mode and get most of the features of a GK pickup. Then I tried the guitar to midi from the SY 1000 getting the same issues with much reduced tracking. I then used a GKC-AD with my Godin LGXT, and I was kind of impressed with the tracking. Now I don't geek out over how many milliseconds of latency I just use my ears and I know what sounds good. I got some cool results, but I am still waiting for my GK 5 to really decide just how cool this thing is. I have a GI-20, a GR-30, GR-55 and I used to own a GR-33. I have enjoyed all of those devices and got mostly usable results. All of this led me to getting a Roland XV 5080 controlled by a FTP with FC1. I felt the GM 800 had many of the sounds from the XV that I have come to love, and I can't wait to be free of the 13-pin cable. so, my needs might be differnt from yours and the jury is still out and there might be bug fixes that could help this product perform better, but I doubt you will see them any time soon.

My point I was trying to make was do what is good for you and don't let anyone talk you out of it.

[stephenseifert]

Thank you. I don't need to geek out over milliseconds of latency either. I use the synth sounds to augment and fill out my main sound which is usually magnetic + microphone. For this, either synth does the job. The thing for me is the money. If I had plenty of it, I'd just keep the GM-800 and make the best of it. It's pretty awesome. I'm just trying to justify the synth plus the converter compared to just going with what I have. I don't like using an almost 25-year-old device as I suspect it could fail on me at any time. I also have students and customers asking what synth to buy. I'm just trying to give this my best. Thanks for your perspective. For that matter, thanks to all who have responded.

Using my GK splitter, I also spent time comparing the GR-55 with the GR-33. The 55 was messier. And I'm using both Graphtech Ghost and Roland GK-3. I do have the GK-5, but I didn't open it, yet. I wonder how different the GK-5 is to my GK-3.

Out of the GR-20, GR-30, GR-33, and GR-55, which was your favorite? What are the pros and cons of the FTP? I've read about this stuff online for a year now. I'm just wondering what your take is?

Thanks.

[BROCKSTAR]

I enjoy programming a DX7 WITHOUT an editor. I've been using Reaktor and Rack on a deep level for years. I've dabbled with PD and Max DSP. I have an audio engineering degree. (For whatever that's worth. lol) I LOVE reading manuals. I know the menus and settings quite well on the GR-33 and the VG-99. I spent hours going through the menus and settings on the GM-800. I have a Graphtech Ghost and a Roland GK-3. I believe they are set up well. On the GM-800, I tried the pickup setting Boss recommends, and I also tried the other settings. I did the same with the GK-3. I tried different kinds of sounds. I'm aware of how a slow attack can make it feel like the unit is responding slow even when it isn't. I'm familiar with the sensitivity/feel settings. I tried everything you're supposed to try. YES, I could be wrong about something, here. Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't my first rodeo.

I realize you need to play differently, and I believe I'm doing that well. I wasn't getting ghost notes or glitches. I perform regularly, and I believe I have pretty good technique. When I flatpick or strum really fast, the GM-800 is ALMOST as good as the GR-33 at tracking. I mean it's darn close, but there's a difference, and I can't understand why they can't at least make a new device function as well as a 20-year-old device. I measured the latency, and the GM-800 is almost always 4ms slower. I thought the 800 was handling things more gracefully, but after a lot more playing, the GR-33 was just reacting better to me.

Yes, the GM-800 has more complex sounds and better effects, but to say it's miles above the GR-33 is quite a stretch. Besides, I learned long ago that the more complex synth sounds aren't as usable. I prefer the simple ones. And then there's the matter of adjusting these sounds inside the box. You can't do that much. If you want to do proper sound design, you have to use your computer. I don't mind that so much, but when I'm playing with folks, I'd really like to be able to do more WITHOUT connecting to a computer.

From https://www.boss.info/us/products/gm-800/:

"...delivers tracking stability and expressive scope never before possible."

Really? Make me a believer. Please! I want this.

So, I still have this thing. It's boxed up, but if anyone has suggestions, I'll unbox it and try again. Let's just presume there's something I'm not getting right. I'm okay with that. So, what can I try?

And why am I writing this? Because I REALLY WANT TO LOVE AND USE THIS THING. I'm not a hater. I've been using Roland and Boss for years, and I'm a huge fan. I would love to find out I'm wrong about this thing. You know, when you buy something, you want it to be right, and you're willing to believe all kinds of things that might not be quite true. It's like the first couple weeks with a new girlfriend; You kind of can't see clearly. You want to believe she's perfect. I feel that with this device. So, please help? Anyone?   

Each part and each scene is going to be different. One thing I would suggest in trying for each part / sound depending on what it is, tap a part button and under "OTHER" mess with the chromatic option. Also mess with the legato switch. That will make a huge difference in how a sound plays!

[stephenseifert]

I'll do it. Thanks!

[chalicerok]

I enjoy programming a DX7 WITHOUT an editor. I've been using Reaktor and Rack on a deep level for years. I've dabbled with PD and Max DSP. I have an audio engineering degree. (For whatever that's worth. lol) I LOVE reading manuals. I know the menus and settings quite well on the GR-33 and the VG-99. I spent hours going through the menus and settings on the GM-800. I have a Graphtech Ghost and a Roland GK-3. I believe they are set up well. On the GM-800, I tried the pickup setting Boss recommends, and I also tried the other settings. I did the same with the GK-3. I tried different kinds of sounds. I'm aware of how a slow attack can make it feel like the unit is responding slow even when it isn't. I'm familiar with the sensitivity/feel settings. I tried everything you're supposed to try. YES, I could be wrong about something, here. Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't my first rodeo.

I realize you need to play differently, and I believe I'm doing that well. I wasn't getting ghost notes or glitches. I perform regularly, and I believe I have pretty good technique. When I flatpick or strum really fast, the GM-800 is ALMOST as good as the GR-33 at tracking. I mean it's darn close, but there's a difference, and I can't understand why they can't at least make a new device function as well as a 20-year-old device. I measured the latency, and the GM-800 is almost always 4ms slower. I thought the 800 was handling things more gracefully, but after a lot more playing, the GR-33 was just reacting better to me.

Yes, the GM-800 has more complex sounds and better effects, but to say it's miles above the GR-33 is quite a stretch. Besides, I learned long ago that the more complex synth sounds aren't as usable. I prefer the simple ones. And then there's the matter of adjusting these sounds inside the box. You can't do that much. If you want to do proper sound design, you have to use your computer. I don't mind that so much, but when I'm playing with folks, I'd really like to be able to do more WITHOUT connecting to a computer.

From https://www.boss.info/us/products/gm-800/:

"...delivers tracking stability and expressive scope never before possible."

Really? Make me a believer. Please! I want this.

So, I still have this thing. It's boxed up, but if anyone has suggestions, I'll unbox it and try again. Let's just presume there's something I'm not getting right. I'm okay with that. So, what can I try?

And why am I writing this? Because I REALLY WANT TO LOVE AND USE THIS THING. I'm not a hater. I've been using Roland and Boss for years, and I'm a huge fan. I would love to find out I'm wrong about this thing. You know, when you buy something, you want it to be right, and you're willing to believe all kinds of things that might not be quite true. It's like the first couple weeks with a new girlfriend; You kind of can't see clearly. You want to believe she's perfect. I feel that with this device. So, please help? Anyone?   

I enjoy programming a DX7 WITHOUT an editor. I've been using Reaktor and Rack on a deep level for years. I've dabbled with PD and Max DSP. I have an audio engineering degree. (For whatever that's worth. lol) I LOVE reading manuals. I know the menus and settings quite well on the GR-33 and the VG-99. I spent hours going through the menus and settings on the GM-800. I have a Graphtech Ghost and a Roland GK-3. I believe they are set up well. On the GM-800, I tried the pickup setting Boss recommends, and I also tried the other settings. I did the same with the GK-3. I tried different kinds of sounds. I'm aware of how a slow attack can make it feel like the unit is responding slow even when it isn't. I'm familiar with the sensitivity/feel settings. I tried everything you're supposed to try. YES, I could be wrong about something, here. Maybe I'm missing something, but this isn't my first rodeo.

I realize you need to play differently, and I believe I'm doing that well. I wasn't getting ghost notes or glitches. I perform regularly, and I believe I have pretty good technique. When I flatpick or strum really fast, the GM-800 is ALMOST as good as the GR-33 at tracking. I mean it's darn close, but there's a difference, and I can't understand why they can't at least make a new device function as well as a 20-year-old device. I measured the latency, and the GM-800 is almost always 4ms slower. I thought the 800 was handling things more gracefully, but after a lot more playing, the GR-33 was just reacting better to me.

Yes, the GM-800 has more complex sounds and better effects, but to say it's miles above the GR-33 is quite a stretch. Besides, I learned long ago that the more complex synth sounds aren't as usable. I prefer the simple ones. And then there's the matter of adjusting these sounds inside the box. You can't do that much. If you want to do proper sound design, you have to use your computer. I don't mind that so much, but when I'm playing with folks, I'd really like to be able to do more WITHOUT connecting to a computer.

From https://www.boss.info/us/products/gm-800/:

"...delivers tracking stability and expressive scope never before possible."

Really? Make me a believer. Please! I want this.

So, I still have this thing. It's boxed up, but if anyone has suggestions, I'll unbox it and try again. Let's just presume there's something I'm not getting right. I'm okay with that. So, what can I try?

And why am I writing this? Because I REALLY WANT TO LOVE AND USE THIS THING. I'm not a hater. I've been using Roland and Boss for years, and I'm a huge fan. I would love to find out I'm wrong about this thing. You know, when you buy something, you want it to be right, and you're willing to believe all kinds of things that might not be quite true. It's like the first couple weeks with a new girlfriend; You kind of can't see clearly. You want to believe she's perfect. I feel that with this device. So, please help? Anyone?   

Well, I have to say if you've tried everything with it and it still doesn't feel right to you, sometimes you just have to let it go. Doesn't matter what my experiences with it or anybody else's. It's how it feels and sounds to you. I've had multiple processors over the years that people just loved and yet I just couldn't connect with.
When I was talking about it being miles above the gr33, I was referring to the availability of sounds and expansion of them. There's just a huge library of stuff available for it and for me that really works in the classic rock group that I play in. But if you have some basic sounds you like and don't need all that it's Overkill.
More importantly, is if you can't get it to feel right when you play it then you've got to let it go.
Like I said, over the years I had fractal multiple times and different versions, just sold an AxefxIII last year, had Helix twice, I'm trying to give it a chance again now because of the new software update. Also had a Head Rush prime which is a great concept but has lots of issues at this early point in it's development and the thing is humongous. Believe it or not, most of the time when we're playing out, I just use a little gx100 even though I've got a Kemper sitting at the house. Does the Kemper sound better? Yes it does a little bit, but for being compact and all the assigns that are available in it, the  gx100 is actually pretty surprising once you get in there and do some tweaking.
I hope there's some kind of a tracking issue that you can figure out and make it work for you cuz the 800 is a nice piece, but I certainly get where you're coming from. Up until now I've used the gr50 with a couple other roland sound modules to get all the sounds I needed.👍👍

[stephenseifert]

I have to now say, after taking the time to not be an idiot, the BOSS GM-800 is pretty amazing. It's the most expressive guitar synth I've used. And like I once suspected, it's much more elegant at handling me and my playing than any unit I've tried in the past. I was too quick to judge, and I was stupid to say so much on here without building up some experience with it. I apologize. I'm especially embarrassed that I ran everything through Logic with bad settings. This is part of the latency I experienced. Some of the latency comes when you change patches. As the 800 finishes the sounds from the previous patch, it seems to catch up to my playing, and the latency decreases noticeably. Make sure you spend adequate time with a single patch before you judge it.   

I used it live all last week on stage, and it was a pleasure. I'm especially enjoying hold type 4:

"The notes that are playing are held (sustained) when you use a controller to turn the hold function on. Any notes you play while the hold function is on are also held. This works like the damper pedal on a piano."

It really stacks voices nicely. The extra polyphony really shines here.

Zenology Pro is really nice to have as an option, but especially if you're mainly wanting the GM-800 to augment your guitar's electric output, there's plenty of very usable tones already inside the unit. MORE than enough.

Make sure your pickup is installed properly. Make sure the input levels for each string are set to match your playing. This takes time. Get familiar with Play Feel, Dynamics, and Low-Velocity Cut settings. Make sure you work on how to play clean in the way this machine expects. You do have to meet it in the middle on a few points, but it's worth it.

The tracking issues on the GR-55 and the SY-1000 I believe came from both units needing full audio spectrum to do proper modeling. I'm actually glad they left modeling OFF the 800.

We're lucky to have this new guitar synth. If you're interested in the GM-800, I highly recommend it.

Finally, thank you for all the help I received. I appreciate it.