Roland GK Serial bus connectors

[alancarl]

I'm getting ready to Connect my 13 pin Godin to the GKC-AD to the GM 800 and of course nobody seems to have this TRS digital audio-data cable from Roland in stock.
So I'm thinking I will roll my own. Ive got the wire requirements-basically like AES/EBU cable.
My question is the Roland cable has fancy 24 karat gold TRS connectors. I looked inside the GKC-AD and those pins do not look like gold to me.
I have been in the practice of not mixing gold and nickel plated as this will cause oxidation and a dielectric between the two dissimilar metals.
Does anybody know if the jacks for the Roland GK serial interface actually have gold plated pins?(i don't feel like opening up one of the boxes to investigate as that might void my warranty or negate my unlikely return of the merchandise)
Thanks
Al

[Wonks]

I really wouldn't worry about it.  You need an ionic liquid, e.g. water, to be present for any reaction to start to occur.  I'm sure you've got electronics full of dissimilar metals touching each other - copper, nickel, tin, lead solder, lead-free solder etc. and you don't worry about those. Again, they only become an issue if you've spilt water on them.

The benefits of gold plating only occur when both sets of contacts are gold plated and they are contacts that are going to sit there for years.  I don't know why Boss have used gold jack plugs, it really is the wrong application for them.

I expect you'll be plugging in your cables just as much as you'd plug in a guitar cable, and the mechanical action will help remove any slight oxidation on the non-gold contacts.

It looks like it uses AES3 cable from this description (110-ohm characteristic impedance twisted pair), so you should be able to make your own cable up with some jack plugs of your choice. 

https://awave.com.au/shop/instruments/guitar/boss-bgk-15-15-4-5m-aes-ebu-trs-digital-audio-cable/



 

[Elantric]

Best to use a double foil shielded 110 ohm twisted pair cable ( AES/EBU, DMX) with TRS plugs on both ends.

(Why?) TO contain and control the GK Serial high speed clock edge EMI/RF radiated noise invading your adjacent unbalanced audio signals. This type Noise manifests as high hiss and clocks on your GK 13 pin signals  if you elect to just use a cheap common TRS to TRS cable

I'm getting ready to Connect my 13 pin Godin to the GKC-AD to the GM 800 and of course nobody seems to have this TRS digital audio-data cable from Roland in stock.
So I'm thinking I will roll my own. Ive got the wire requirements-basically like AES/EBU cable.
My question is the Roland cable has fancy 24 karat gold TRS connectors. I looked inside the GKC-AD and those pins do not look like gold to me.
I have been in the practice of not mixing gold and nickel plated as this will cause oxidation and a dielectric between the two dissimilar metals.
Does anybody know if the jacks for the Roland GK serial interface actually have gold plated pins?(i don't feel like opening up one of the boxes to investigate as that might void my warranty or negate my unlikely return of the merchandise)
Thanks
Al

Official SERIAL GK Cable





Heavy Duty 24K Gold-TRS PLUGS
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088JWF3CD?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details




Monoprice AES/EBU Cable - 6 Meter - Black | 22AWG Twisted Conductors With Copper Braid And Aluminum Foil Shielding- cut to required shorter lengths and solder TRS plugs above
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IACBGO4?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[chalicerok]

AES cables work fine. I just took a couple of my DMX cables, took off the xlrs and put on TRS. Or if you don't want to go that far you can get a TRS adapters for the xlrs and go that route. Just make sure that it actually is a DMX cable and not just mic cable that's being used for DMX. Supposedly has better shielding properties for digital signal.

[pasha811]

Are the connections Tip Tip / ring ring / sleeve sleeve? I am reading many post referring to twisted pairs so better be sure. Thanks 👍

[yberwaffe]

Are the connections Tip Tip / ring ring / sleeve sleeve? I am reading many post referring to twisted pairs so better be sure. Thanks 👍

Yepp, that's the way.

[alancarl]

I really wouldn't worry about it.  You need an ionic liquid, e.g.

I expect you'll be plugging in your cables just as much as you'd plug in a guitar cable, and the mechanical action will help remove any slight oxidation on the non-gold contacts.

Well is beer an ionic liquid:-)
Thanks for the great explanation Wonks!
I don't think I'll be plugging and unplugging the serial cable very much as I currently have the GKC-AD 13 pin to serial converter and will use any of my 13 pin guitars leaving the serial cable connected between the GKC and GM-800.

In a moment of impatience as I really did not want to hack an AES cable and start soldering after 1:00AM I tried the serial data run with a Mogami Gokd connector trs to trs cable I had and it worked ! The Mogami wire has a polymer shielding along with a very tight spun copper shield fwiw ... I really don't know if the insulated electrodes are twisted but it apparently is not super critical here.

In any case I'm digging some of what the GM-800 has going on. For so many years I really have been wanting a guitar synth with a high quality synth that offered the possibility of expansions so the future is bright indeed!
Thanks again everybody.
I will wire up a proper to spec cable after I have really delved into this box!

[jackeb77]

Are the connections Tip Tip / ring ring / sleeve sleeve? I am reading many post referring to twisted pairs so better be sure. Thanks 👍

Yepp, that's the way.

Hi. I'm new to all this.
I'm looking to get a cable made.
Should I be using 1 pair or 2 pair cable.
In the UK I'm looking at this cable. Has foil shielding. Is it suitable?

https://www.van-damme.com/vandamme_product/van-damme-super-green-series-digi-grade-enhanced-aesebu-110-ohm-pre-jacketed-cable/#1537534704632-c472e6a0-7e3824df-956f152f-d9c1

1 pair 268-431-050:   
Conductors   7 x 0.25 mm bare ultra-pure oxygen-free copper
Conductor size   7 x 0.25 mm, 0.34 mm2, AWG 22/7
Insulation   Foam Skin Polyethylene
Screen type   24 µm Aluminium/Polyester Foil >150% coverage
Drain wire   19 x 0.12 mm bare ultra-pure oxygen-free copper
Overall jacket   Flexible PVC composite Leaf Green RAL 6002
Overall diameter   4.80 ± 0.15 mm
Bend Radius   10 x overall diameter

[Elantric]

Hi. I'm new to all this.
I'm looking to get a cable made.
Should I be using 1 pair or 2 pair cable.
In the UK I'm looking at this cable. Has foil shielding. Is it suitable?

https://www.van-damme.com/vandamme_product/van-damme-super-green-series-digi-grade-enhanced-aesebu-110-ohm-pre-jacketed-cable/#1537534704632-c472e6a0-7e3824df-956f152f-d9c1

1 pair 268-431-050:   
Conductors    7 x 0.25 mm bare ultra-pure oxygen-free copper
Conductor size    7 x 0.25 mm, 0.34 mm2, AWG 22/7
Insulation    Foam Skin Polyethylene
Screen type    24 µm Aluminium/Polyester Foil >150% coverage
Drain wire    19 x 0.12 mm bare ultra-pure oxygen-free copper
Overall jacket    Flexible PVC composite Leaf Green RAL 6002
Overall diameter    4.80 ± 0.15 mm
Bend Radius    10 x overall diameter

One TWISTED pair cable , with foil shield drain wire ,  wired 1:1 at both TRS ends


TIP = WHITE = TIP

RING = BLACK = RING

SLEEVE = SHIELD DRAIN =SLEEVE

I just order this 6 meter  twisted pair + foil shield AES/EBU cable  and cut off the XLR plugs and cut into shorter lengths then solder my own TRS plugs



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IACBGO4?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Using these TRS plugs


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088JWF3CD?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[jackeb77]

One TWISTED pair cable , with foil shield drain wire ,  wired 1:1 at both TRS ends


TIP = WHITE = TIP

RING = BLACK = RING

SLEEVE = SHEILD DRAIN =SLEEVE

I just order this twisted pair + foil shield AES/EBU cable  and cut off the XLR plugs and solder my own TRS plugs

 

Thanks.
Is the van damme cable I quoted above twisted pair ? Thanks for your help

Edit
It says.. Van Damme Super Green enhanced AES/EBU cable is a foil screen overall braid multicore and a PVC jacketed one pair cable

[Elantric]

Thanks.
Is the van damme cable I quoted above twisted pair ? Thanks for your help

Edit
It says.. Van Damme Super Green enhanced AES/EBU cable is a foil screen overall braid multicore and a PVC jacketed one pair cable

Should work fine

Just avoid common microphone cable or TRS audio patch cables that do not have the important foil shield - else you may experience high frequency  noise invading adjacent 13pin cables

The SERIAL GK cable could be prone to become   a high frequency  noise source if use TRS cables  without that important foil shield

[jackeb77]

Should work fine

Just avoid common microphone cable or TRS audio patch cables that do not have the important foil shield - else you may experience high frequency  noise invading adjacent 13pin cables

The SERIAL GK cable could be prone to become   a high frequency  noise source if use TRS cables  without that important foil shield

OK that's great to know.

The mogami 3080 cable I've seen mentioned on here.. I can't find anything about it having a foil shield. It has twisted pair and sheilded but can't find anything on net that tells me if it foil sheild.

https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/

[Elantric]

OK that's great to know.

The mogami 3080 cable I've seen mentioned on here.. I can't find anything about it having a foil shield. It has twisted pair and sheilded but can't find anything on net that tells me if it foil sheild.

https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/dig_interface/aes_ebu/

If the twisted pair AES/EBU cable under consideration does not mention Foil Shield and Drain Wire - avoid that type

Twisted pair and braided Shield alone ( no foil shield)  is NOT suitable for SERIAL GK 

I do not recommend Mogami 3080 cable - no foil shield


https://www.markertek.com/product/mg-3080/mogami-w3080-2-cond-110ohm-aes-ebu-digital-audio-cable-black-per-foot

[jackeb77]

If the twisted pair AES/EBU cable under consideration does not mention Foil Shield and Drain Wire - avoid that type

Twisted pair and braided Shield alone ( no foil shield)  is not suitable for SERIAL GK 

Id not recommend Mogami 3080 cable - no foil shield


https://www.markertek.com/product/mg-3080/mogami-w3080-2-cond-110ohm-aes-ebu-digital-audio-cable-black-per-foot

Thanks for clarifying that.
In the UK I haven't been able to find a single cable that is twisted pair with foil screen other than the monoprice but I don't have the means or know how to solder trs Jack's onto it

[Elantric]

https://linkitaly.com/products/aes-dmx-digital-cables/

Eurocable's AES/DMX Digital Cables are engineered for digital AES/EBU audio equipment and for DMX data transmission in lighting control applications. They feature a double copper + foil tape shield, 110 ohm nominal impedance and an extremely low capacitance.

Cod: CVS LKDD02S2

[Elantric]

These seem to be a reasonable pre-made substitute - available in different lengths

6 foot
https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-6-35mm-Stereo-Balanced-Interconnect/dp/B07SQ2LH5Q

16foot
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SQ2KSR3







TISINO 1/4 inch TRS Cable, Heavy Duty 6.35mm Male to Male Stereo Jack Balanced Audio Path Cord Interconnect Cable

Quarter inch TRS Stereo Cable, It designed to interconnect pro audio gear and DJ equipment such as studio monitors, mixers, amplifiers and similar devices with balanced phone jacks. It may also be used as a stereo interconnect.
Heavy Duty Gold-Plated Metal 6.35mm connectors resist corrosion, provide durability and improve the signal transmission, ensures minimal signal loss.
20 AWG 4N OFC Wire, High Density Shielding and Al-foil Shielded to Prevent EMI/RFI Interference ensuring the highest quality audio transfer without static, or popping.
Heavy Duty Flexible Rubber Jacket with 6.0mm(0.24 inch) Outside Diameter (OD) Enable Tangle Free and Super Durable, High quality and made by environment-friendly material, Polyethylene insulation improves high frequency response.


In UK here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TISINO-6-35mm-Stereo-Balanced-Interconnect/dp/B07SQ2KSR3

[Jim Williams]

What about these?
Monoprice TRS cables

[Elantric]

What about these?
Monoprice TRS cables

No foil shield

[jackeb77]

These seem to be a reasonable pre-made substitute - available in different lengths

6 foot
https://www.amazon.com/TISINO-6-35mm-Stereo-Balanced-Interconnect/dp/B07SQ2LH5Q

16foot
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SQ2KSR3







TISINO 1/4 inch TRS Cable, Heavy Duty 6.35mm Male to Male Stereo Jack Balanced Audio Path Cord Interconnect Cable

Quarter inch TRS Stereo Cable, It designed to interconnect pro audio gear and DJ equipment such as studio monitors, mixers, amplifiers and similar devices with balanced phone jacks. It may also be used as a stereo interconnect.
Heavy Duty Gold-Plated Metal 6.35mm connectors resist corrosion, provide durability and improve the signal transmission, ensures minimal signal loss.
20 AWG 4N OFC Wire, High Density Shielding and Al-foil Shielded to Prevent EMI/RFI Interference ensuring the highest quality audio transfer without static, or popping.
Heavy Duty Flexible Rubber Jacket with 6.0mm(0.24 inch) Outside Diameter (OD) Enable Tangle Free and Super Durable, High quality and made by environment-friendly material, Polyethylene insulation improves high frequency response.


In UK here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TISINO-6-35mm-Stereo-Balanced-Interconnect/dp/B07SQ2KSR3

Hey thank you for doing some research appreciated.
Is this one 110 Ohm?

[Elantric]

Hey thank you for doing some research appreciated.
Is this one 110 Ohm?

Should be close enough in shorter lengths - the major need is short SERIAL GK  cable - for GMC-AD> GM-800

[IMH1234]

If the twisted pair AES/EBU cable under consideration does not mention Foil Shield and Drain Wire - avoid that type

Is there any actual basis why it has to be a foil shield rather than a high quality braided shield designed for professional AES/EBU wiring applications. Am aware of the technical differences in shielding capabilities of foil vs wrap although in practice for most studio applications these are interchangeable and as much about the use, environment and stress the cable will be exposed to as anything else

I ask because this all sounds a bit like the 'only use Boss ACA/PSA adaptor' disclaimer that we all observed in the 80s and 90s until we actually realised that our Boss distortion would be just fine with any correct polarity 9v DC pedal power supply. Is the boss serial signal more susceptible to HF interference than other digital signals in the studio requiring the additional shielding of foil or is this more about encouraging us to buy the boss cable vs any high quality alternatives

Would be good to have some user experience of any issues with different cables in different environments and what the actual ill effects are in practice

[Elantric]

The genuine Roland SERIAL GK cable is a Foil/Braid combo shield

Combination of foil and braided shield. One of the most effective and superior shielding options for cable. Provides strength, high coverage, and great flexibility where noise rejection is critical


https://blog.epectec.com/why-shielded-cables-are-used-to-improve-cable-design

https://www.lapptannehill.com/resources/technical-information/shielding-types-comparison-charts


WHY SHIELDED CABLES ARE USED TO IMPROVE CABLE Performance
Understanding the environment which your assembly will be used in may determine whether or not your application will require shielded cables. Applications where cable assemblies are utilized are often electrically noisy, industrial environments, where factories can create interference within cables. If your cables at at risk of electrical noise interference, shielded cables can greatly improve the performance of your equipment.

Electrical Noise In Cable Assemblies
Electrical noise consists of radiated noise and electromagnetic interference (EMI). Cable assemblies even have the potential to be a primary source of EMI transfer, as they can produce noise that passes to other equipment or act as an antenna to radiate noise. A cable assembly can also be a receiver and pickup EMI generated from other sources. Receiving or generating noise can seriously disrupt the function of equipment and electronic components around the assembly, as well as disrupt the transmission of data.


Outer Sheath Or Jacket?
Cables used in an assembly are typically designed with an outer sheath or cable jacket which protects each cable from scrapes and abrasions, as well as environmental risks such as moisture or spills. Outer sheaths, however, are vulnerable to electromagnetic energy, providing no protection from EMI.

The most effective method used to resolve EMI issues in cable assemblies is through the use of cable shielding. A cable shield surrounds the components within the cable and will impact EMI in two ways:

Reflecting the energy or
Upon noise conduction, transmits it to ground.
In both instances, EMI is stopped from reaching the inner components of the cable. Some energy will pass through the shielding, but the energy that does pass through is so highly attenuated it will have zero impact on the finished assembly.

 

Foil Shielding Vs Braided Shielding
The two most common shields used in cable assemblies are foil sheaths and metal braids. In specialty applications, shields can be made of conducting polymers.

Foil Shielding
Foil shields consist of a thin layer of metal, usually aluminum or copper, attached to a carrier such as polyester. The polyester carrier provides toughness and durability that allows the foil to be wrapped around the cable without tearing or fracturing. A foil shield offers complete coverage to it's surrounded components. One drawback of a foil shield is that it is thin, making it harder to terminate to a connector. The termination of a foil shield is made easier through the use of a drain wire, which terminates and grounds the foil shield.

Braided Shielding
A braid shield cable consists of a woven mesh around a cable core. The mesh is made of strands of either bare or tinned copper wires, and less commonly of other materials such as silver plated copper or stainless steel. A metal braid provides a low-resistance path to ground creating a much easier termination point than a foil shield. Terminations can be accomplished by crimping/soldering the braid to the connector or by the assistance of a drain wire. Contrary to the complete coverage provided by a foil shield, braided shields only offer from 70-95% coverage. Copper has a much higher conductivity than aluminum as well as having more bulk, therefore copper is more efficient for conducting noise and/or EMI.

Summary of Differences
Coverage: Foil 100% vs Braided 70%-95%
Thickness: A foil is thinner than a metal braid, therefore it rejects less noise but provides protection over a wider range of frequencies.
Density: Braid shield provides better overall defense against EMI because it is denser than foil.
For these reasons, a combination of a foil and a braid shield are commonly used for the best protection.  Each type of shield supports the other, overcoming any deficiencies of the other type while compensating with each own strengths. A combination of shields provides improved shielding effectiveness superior to either type alone.
In wire and cable design the sole purpose of a shield is to bleed away any noise the cable is picking up. The shield of a cable and the way it is terminated must provide a path to ground.

Summary
A cable assembly needs to have the proper shielding based on the application it will be used in. A shielded cable, however, will not be effective if the equipment it is installed on is not properly grounded. The connector and the cable shielding effectiveness must match. When designing an interconnect, don't over specify requirements and build an assembly with more capability than is needed.

[IMH1234]

Makes some sense why Boss would go with the foil+braided option - they will reasonably expect users will be using this stuff on stage and environments where there is little control over what EMI sources are around and treating it quite roughly so they don't want lots of issues. My expectation though is that say for a fixed install in a studio then other high quality cable may be entirely suitable and entirely consistent with the point on not over specifying requirements.

It will be a while before I actually take the plunge on the new GK/GM800 setup (Whilst I am getting over my reservations on the software/hardware aspects I have some costly audio cabling additions that currently top of the list) but when I do I will probably make up a few different cables and do some tests to see if there are any real world differences

[Elantric]

IMHO principal reason they require the special foil+ braid shield cable is NOT for OUTSIDE EMI / RF noise sources invading and corrupting the SERIAL GK  data.

Instead, its to prevent the known high  EMI / RF noise inherent inside SERIAL GK data cable escaping and lower harmonics invading all your other high impedance unbalanced Instrument signal paths, on adjacent gear,  which often manifests as high frequency noise if not managed.

This is the reason why the GK-5 lacks a Normal Hi-Z guitar input.


GMC-AD
Review the carefully designed internal PCB  of the GMC-AD.

After its entry via the GK13 jack pin #7 , the "Normal Guitar "analog signal makes a swift U-Turn back to the outside world  with a special metal shield surrounding the Normal Guitar Output jack - away from the inherently noisy digital circuitry.
This design strategy lowers and manages the noise floor.  It becomes apparent the challenges Boss Engineering R&D was tasked with, and I understand why they elected to design the Boss GK-5 pickup without the Normal Pickup signal input. The physical size would have been far too big. And a role call of professional touring musicians  90% use a dedicated wireless system for their normal guitar signal.   

[Kitko]

What about https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rcc-3-trtr/ as an alternative?

It's not that I wanna cheap out but a 5 meter cable to connect the convertor box to a GM-800 is kinda overkill (nevermind they're hopelessly sold out). And the 9 meter is downright ridiculous to connect two devices sitting next to each other.

The Tisin cable doesn't ship to where I live, not even from Amazon DE.

OK, calling on experts here... will this work with a pair of neutrik connectors?

https://shop.sommercable.com/en/Cable/Bulk-Cable-Audio/DMX-Binary-234-AES-EBU-MKII-520-0051F.html#tab_attributes

Any advice appreciated. I know exactly ZERO about the cables but after talking to the cable shop folks, this should work.