strange problem with alternate tunings

[bhorstkotte]

I'm suddenly having a problem with alternate tunings where I can hear a bit of the top 3 strings in standard tuning as well as alternate tuning.  This is with the system patches like DADGAD, OpenG&P90) I have the same problem with 2 different cables and two different guitars (one is a Godin LGX-SA with piezo, the other a guitar with a GK-2A).  I've checked every setting I can think of (patch mix, mix switch, pickup string sensitivity settings), and can't seem to find what's going on.  Thought I would check to see if anyone else has run into something like this before I try backing up patches and doing a factory reset.  Oh and I'm listening with closed back headphones, and it's only on the top 3 (plain) strings.

Thanks - Brad

[Elantric]

I'm suddenly having a problem with alternate tunings where I can hear a bit of the top 3 strings in standard tuning as well as alternate tuning.  This is with the system patches like DADGAD, OpenG&P90) I have the same problem with 2 different cables and two different guitars (one is a Godin LGX-SA with piezo, the other a guitar with a GK-2A).  I've checked every setting I can think of (patch mix, mix switch, pickup string sensitivity settings), and can't seem to find what's going on.  Thought I would check to see if anyone else has run into something like this before I try backing up patches and doing a factory reset.  Oh and I'm listening with closed back headphones, and it's only on the top 3 (plain) strings.

Thanks - Brad

If any portion of your headphone cable is touching the guitar, this can yeild a physical vibration path for the natural pitch of the vibrating strings ( which conflict with the DSP created Alternate Tuning pitch) to be heard on closed back headphones 

[bhorstkotte]

Hmm, nope, double checked that, cord is over my shoulder to make sure it doesn't make contact, and still have the problem.  Actually noticed the issue is with any detuned string, not just the top 3 - but easier to hear on the higher strings.

[bhorstkotte]

Did a full factory reset (after ensuring I had all my settings backed up), didn't help. 

[Elantric]

Hmm, nope, double checked that, cord is over my shoulder to make sure it doesn't make contact, and still have the problem.  Actually noticed the issue is with any detuned string, not just the top 3 - but easier to hear on the higher strings.

Post a recording from VG-99 output

[bhorstkotte]

Here (finally) is a recording of what I'm hearing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D7m_zn37CG65CJfvbf7gTcPQy2DaPX0N/view?usp=sharing

[bhorstkotte]

(sorry about the clipping, but hopefully still demonstrates the problem)

[Elantric]

Here (finally) is a recording of what I'm hearing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D7m_zn37CG65CJfvbf7gTcPQy2DaPX0N/view?usp=sharing

Be sure its a direct VG-99 output recording (and NOT from a microphone in the room - which is what this sounds like.

The physics of "DSP ALTERNATE TUNING" mean you must avoid hearing the pitch of the unamplified guitar strings, which can be  surprisingly loud decibel level . This means using  "DSP ALTERNATE TUNING" at live gigs in very small venue with seating close to the stage will result in a dissapointing experience for both the player and the listener.   

 "DSP ALTERNATE TUNING" works better with a full band with acoustic drumset - with amplification for the  "DSP ALTERNATE TUNING" processor to shadow  hearing the pitch of the unamplified guitar strings.

[bhorstkotte]

No, it's a direct recording - Vg-99 phone outputs to external sound card to laptop to Ableton

[bhorstkotte]

....and I verified that the guitar's mix switch was set to not output the pickup sounds (and pickup volume all the way down for good measure)

[Elantric]

....and I verified that the guitar's mix switch was set to not output the pickup sounds (and pickup volume all the way down for good measure)

Backup all user patches

Perform a VG-99 Factory FULL Reset -all patches
https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/roland-vg-99-factory-reset-initialization/
Then audition factory Presets in the Category: ALT TUNING
like
Preset 0035 - OpenG & P90



If warble  continues

Try a different GK13 cable

[gumbo]

Hmmm...

The difference between the Mix Switch wiring in a GK2A vs a GK3, and what the VG-99 might be set to expect as input on Pin #9 ?  ....or just some other sinister thing happening on that circuit?

...just a thought before lunch (so therefore probably not thought through enough...) 

[bhorstkotte]

Backup all user patches

Perform a VG-99 Factory FULL Reset

If it continues

Try a different GK13 cable

Is there a difference between a Reset and a "Full" Reset?  I did do a Factory Reset, and tried different cables, and even different guitars (one a Godin with piezo, and another with with a GK-2A).

[bhorstkotte]

Hmmm...

The difference between the Mix Switch wiring in a GK2A vs a GK3, and what the VG-99 might be set to expect as input on Pin #9 ?  ....or just some other sinister thing happening on that circuit?

...just a thought before lunch (so therefore probably not thought through enough...) 

Hey I'm desperate, I'll take whatever 

The problem occurs with two different guitars, one with a piezo (Godin) and the other with a GK-2A.

[Elantric]

Hey I'm desperate, I'll take whatever 

The problem occurs with two different guitars, one with a piezo (Godin) and the other with a GK-2A.

Test with headphones directly connected to VG-99 Headphone Output - and no other output connections

And only GK-13 cable as VG-99 Input
On VG-99, there are two COSM Voices (COSM Guitar  A, COSM Guitar B) as well as Normal PU signal  - try muting All three voices , ( you should hear nothing)  then only enable one COSM voice at a time  and see if warble problems cease, or remain using factory presets in the ALT TUNING Category

[bhorstkotte]

Thanks, tried all that, and same problem.  Tried replacing the Godin 9V battery just in case, no change.  The only other thing I can think of is perhaps the 13 pin input on the VG-99 itself is messed up?  I only hear the "bleed" on the top 3 strings (even though the factory preset I'm testing with drops the low E to D as well).

[Elantric]

Thanks, tried all that, and same problem.  Tried replacing the Godin 9V battery just in case, no change.  The only other thing I can think of is perhaps the 13 pin input on the VG-99 itself is messed up?  I only hear the "bleed" on the top 3 strings (even though the factory preset I'm testing with drops the low E to D as well).

Try a new GK13 cable

[bhorstkotte]

I have three, all the same issue

[gumbo]

All guitars, all cables, all produce the same results/symptoms...can't help feeling this points to the VG-99.

Can you go back in time to isolate any change(s) that could have intentionally - or - unintentionally occurred within the unit before the symptoms became noticeable?

Have/were any system settings altered in any way ?

Do you have the opportunity to temporarily access another VG-99 to see what happens when you connect your guitar(s) and cable(s) ?

Peter

[bhorstkotte]

I don't recall anything that was changed.

No, I don't have access to another VG-99 - I do have a VG-88, perhaps I should try on that as well, I don't recall what its pitch shift capabilities are.  Or maybe a local Guitar Center or Sam Ash may have one I can try with.

In any case, thanks for the help thus far!  I'll be away from my gear for a while, surgery and recovery, will check back in in a couple weeks.

[Elantric]

I don't recall anything that was changed.

No, I don't have access to another VG-99 - I do have a VG-88, perhaps I should try on that as well, I don't recall what its pitch shift capabilities are.  Or maybe a local Guitar Center or Sam Ash may have one I can try with.

In any case, thanks for the help thus far!  I'll be away from my gear for a while, surgery and recovery, will check back in in a couple weeks.

In 2023  they may have a GP-10 or SY-1000, either provides DSP Alt tuning and be used to test your guitars or GK13 cable

[gumtown]

Not sure if this will be of help, maybe,
try using VG-99FxFloorBoard editor.
It is less visually confusing than the Roland VG-99 editor, and shows your signal routing very simply in a logical flow.
Download link here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sy1000floorboard/files/VG99FloorBoard/

[IMH1234]

I would disconnect the VG99 from all computers, editors, footswitches and the like and create a minimal init patch in the hardware - just any guitar model on the A channel, default model settings, turn off the all the various alt tunings, poly FX, amp, FX, or master settings. Just modelled signal to the A output. The B channel should be completely off. This will hopefully be a vanilla sound without any pitch or tuning changes and should sound as expected. Then go into the alt tuning section and turn on the Alt tuning mode - what happens? If you are now hearing the other strings as well as the expected tuning change check every other alt tuning type is off - most likely culprit I can think for what you are describing of is 12 string mode is also enabled. If that doesn't work, systematically go through every menu checking everything is off until you hit something that stops this happening - pay particular attention to any controller assign settings - these can easily create weirdness and be hard to track down. You will eventually isolate this at which point it should be straightforward to fix in every patch impacted

[IMH1234]

Also, make sure nothing is plugged into the external input to ensure this cannot be the source of the problem