Boss GM-800 FAQ

[keitht]

I made my own two foot TRS cable using Neutrik connectors with good microphone wire, spiral shield and twisted pair. It works flawlessly.

As a retired EE, I am quite familiar with digital signal transmission. There are two important cable performance criteria, bit errors and electromagnetic interference. Neither of these is ever perfectly achieved. Getting the best possible bit error performance requires that the cable has the correct characteristic impedance, affected by conductor spacing and insulation material, so that interfering reflections can be controlled by matching source and termination impedances. If there is a significant mismatch, there will be bit errors which could have drastic effects like loud noises and control signal errors. Interference is reduced by twisted pairs which cancel magnetic radiation, and by a shield that reduces electric fields. These work in both directions, reducing possible interference to other devices, and reducing possible errors due to pickup from other nearby components.

Bottom line is that these considerations are increasingly critical for long cables and nearly negligible for short distances. However, using the wrong wire could definitely be trouble. For example, TRS connectors are used for headphones and those cables are often unshielded and not twisted. So making your own cable from a broken pair of headphones is a bad idea. But for fun I cobbled the worst I could find in my cable collection and tried it. It worked just fine. Would it interfere with a nearby radio? Probably.

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[Nobulusprime]

I made my own two foot TRS cable using Neutrik connectors with good microphone wire, spiral shield and twisted pair. It works flawlessly.

As a retired EE, I am quite familiar with digital signal transmission. There are two important cable performance criteria, bit errors and electromagnetic interference. Neither of these is ever perfectly achieved. Getting the best possible bit error performance requires that the cable has the correct characteristic impedance, affected by conductor spacing and insulation material, so that interfering reflections can be controlled by matching source and termination impedances. If there is a significant mismatch, there will be bit errors which could have drastic effects like loud noises and control signal errors. Interference is reduced by twisted pairs which cancel magnetic radiation, and by a shield that reduces electric fields. These work in both directions, reducing possible interference to other devices, and reducing possible errors due to pickup from other nearby components.

Bottom line is that these considerations are increasingly critical for long cables and nearly negligible for short distances. However, using the wrong wire could definitely be trouble. For example, TRS connectors are used for headphones and those cables are often unshielded and not twisted. So making your own cable from a broken pair of headphones is a bad idea. But for fun I cobbled the worst I could find in my cable collection and tried it. It worked just fine. Would it interfere with a nearby radio? Probably.

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Wow! Thanks. Well if that one that you cobbled together worked I'm sure I'll be fine! As I'm using the AD converter box I only need a very short cable and I've got a decent one. It makes me wonder about my GK13 cable going in though. I'll make sure I use my best one. Thanks again

[arkieboy]

So I've taken the plunge and I'm trialing the GM800 with GKAD box.... I've seen a lot of talk about the very pricey Roland TRS cable. I've got a couple of questions for users of the GM800 who have attempted using alternatives. One of the main thing I want for a start is a short patch cable (below 1 metre) and Roland just don't do that (as far as I can see). So my 2 questions are:
1. How mission critical is AES shielded cable? I've ordered a high quality (but standard) Roland TRS (Rcc-3-Trtr) cable. Has anyone tried and compared alternative cables for this job that aren't AES?
2. I assume the Roland cable follows the standard Stereo/balanced TRS wiring configuration?

Thanks in advance

I used a 30cm EBS TRS cable for a couple of days until the guy who built my hexacaster soldered one up for me (thanks, Wonks!).  I didn't have any problems, but I was having some minor issues reliably connecting to the GM-800 via USB which I attribute to proximity to the poorly shielded GK serial connection.

[jackeb77]

The Boss cable is very well made and spec'd. I liased with a few cable makers in UK and we hit on van damme cable but most of the shielded twisted pair cables from many manufacturers are not flexible like a guitar cable they are quite rigid and don't lay down flat. In the end we agreed the boss cable is actually very well made and has a great specification for the task at hand and boss they managed to make it feel and lay flat more like a guitar cable. I purchased the 30 foot boss length and we used it to cut up for shorter patch cables and couple longer cables as well.
Neutrik gold trs Jacks used.
I really wanted to believe I could do it cheaper but in the end we realised the boss cable whilst pricey it is actually very good.

[admin_shawnb]

I thought part of the concern was signal bleed *TO* other gear.  E.g., if a regular TRS was used, and it laid on top of a guitar or mic or usb cable, or laid on top of some effect housing, faint digital noise might be introduced into the other signal.

(The Gibson Dark Fire used a similar serial xmission of divided pu + mag pu over 1/4" TRS.  It allowed any TRS cable.  But noise was an issue - everywhere...)

[Nobulusprime]

Thanks everyone. I'll see how I go and I'll update

[Nobulusprime]

2 quick questions

1. firmware update - I've now tried to format 2 x USB flashdrives and neither of them is recognised by the GM800. I've seen that a flash drive that is too big can be problematic neither of mine are particularly big the biggest is 64gb. Any suggestions or recommendations?

2. Zenology Pro does that allow access to all of the sample packs like such as World Instruments etc? And on that front how do you find out the complete tonelist in each pack before you buy?

 

[kenact]

2 quick questions

1. firmware update - I've now tried to format 2 x USB flashdrives and neither of them is recognised by the GM800. I've seen that a flash drive that is too big can be problematic neither of mine are particularly big the biggest is 64gb. Any suggestions or recommendations?

2. Zenology Pro does that allow access to all of the sample packs like such as World Instruments etc? And on that front how do you find out the complete tonelist in each pack before you buy?

 

If the GM-800 is like the GR-55, it will only use a drive formatted as ExFat, which I believe is limited to 32gb.

[xogmusic]

2 quick questions

1. firmware update - I've now tried to format 2 x USB flashdrives and neither of them is recognised by the GM800. I've seen that a flash drive that is too big can be problematic neither of mine are particularly big the biggest is 64gb. Any suggestions or recommendations?

2. Zenology Pro does that allow access to all of the sample packs like such as World Instruments etc? And on that front how do you find out the complete tonelist in each pack before you buy?

1. I used a 4Gb USB2 Transcend flash drive and formatted it on the GM-800
2. Tones from the EXZ packs can be uploaded into the GM-800 but are only sounding when you buy a lifetime key which actives the tones. You can store 4 EXZ packs in total on the GM-800.

[Nobulusprime]

1. I used a 4Gb USB2 Transcend flash drive and formatted it on the GM-800
2. Tones from the EXZ packs can be uploaded into the GM-800 but are only sounding when you buy a lifetime key which actives the tones. You can store 4 EXZ packs in total on the GM-800.

I'll see if I can find a smaller flashdrive in that case!

So there's no advantage to having a Zenology Pro subscription with regards to EXZ packs? I assume Zenology Pro only gives you access to digital synthesis based tones and deeper editing?
 

[arkieboy]

2 quick questions

1. firmware update - I've now tried to format 2 x USB flashdrives and neither of them is recognised by the GM800. I've seen that a flash drive that is too big can be problematic neither of mine are particularly big the biggest is 64gb. Any suggestions or recommendations?

2. Zenology Pro does that allow access to all of the sample packs like such as World Instruments etc? And on that front how do you find out the complete tonelist in each pack before you buy?

I used an old freebie USB stick from an EU Framework 7 project I was part of over a decade ago!  It needs to be formatted by the GM-800 first though.

With a basic subscription or better you can use and audition any of the wave expansions in Zenology.  Each expansion comes with a set of presets - these presets are available in your GM-800 when you purchase a lifetime license for a wave expansion and install it in the GM-800.

With a pro subscription or better, you can see the underlying waveform list, and create your own presets out of them.  Presets you make in Zenology Pro that use a wave expansion's waveforms will work in your GM-800 if you have that wave expansion installed.  Just export your preset from Zenology Pro in the normal way.

[admin_shawnb]

For an explanation of what you can do in Zenology Pro vs the GM-800, the architecture thread might help:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=36322.0

[arkieboy]

I assume Zenology Pro only gives you access to digital synthesis based tones and deeper editing?

Zenology Pro has five oscillator kinds you can use for a partial (four partials make a zenology preset, which equals a part in GM-800 scene): a well apportioned, virtual analogue oscillator; a dual waveform PCM-based oscillator from the JV-1080/XV5080 line with all of the waveforms that were shipped as standard in that line of synths; a PCM Sync oscillator (I have yet to play with this); a super-saw based oscillator (two parameters, gain and detune); and a noise-based oscillator (gain only).

As you could purchase SR/JV and SRX cards for the JV/XV hardware synths, you can augment the underlying waveform set for the PCM synth with wave expansions.  Which are essentially the waveforms and presets that shipped with those hardware cards.

(ed - I got my synths and oscillators confused)

[xogmusic]

With a pro subscription or better, you can see the underlying waveform list, and create your own presets out of them.  Presets you make in Zenology Pro that use a wave expansion's waveforms will work in your GM-800 if you have that wave expansion installed.  Just export your preset from Zenology Pro in the normal way.

The tones from an EXZ wave expansion will not sound unless you get a lifetime key. I noticed this for instance with the Benedetto B67 collections in which he used one of the tones from the EXZ008. After buying a lifetime key for the EXZ008 his preset did sound on the GM-800. All the tones from the default libraries, SDZ sound packs from Core will work on the GM-800. AEZ packs free tones can be used, any others must be bought.

[arkieboy]

The tones from an EXZ wave expansion will not sound unless you get a lifetime key.

You have to buy a lifetime key to even install the wave expansion on your GM-800, surely?

[Nobulusprime]

The tones from an EXZ wave expansion will not sound unless you get a lifetime key. I noticed this for instance with the Benedetto B67 collections in which he used one of the tones from the EXZ008. After buying a lifetime key for the EXZ008 his preset did sound on the GM-800. All the tones from the default libraries, SDZ sound packs from Core will work on the GM-800. AEZ packs free tones can be used, any others must be bought.

When you say a lifetime key, you mean for the specific pack i.e. £19.99 or whatever. Also how do you know what's in the pack and whether it's worth it without being able to audition it in Zenology before buying it?

[arkieboy]

When you say a lifetime key, you mean for the specific pack i.e. £19.99 or whatever. Also how do you know what's in the pack and whether it's worth it without being able to audition it in Zenology before buying it?

Yes.  In Roland Cloud Manager, in the 'hardware' tab you click on 'Guitar and Bass' and it takes you to downloads for products of that kind and are that are compatible with your unit (i.e. the GM-800).

You pay your £20, and it allows you to download a zip file that unpacks into a folder containing a .exz file.  You save that file to the root directory of the memory stick that you formatted in your GM-800, plug the memory stick into the GM-800 and load the wave expansion.  This also imports your Roland Cloud ID - a GM-800 will only allow purchased content from a single user.

I couldn't see any other way to download an .exz file - maybe that is available if you have a full Ultimate membership, but the manual for the Jupiter Xm didn't talk about phoning home to periodically check for license, it just specifies that lifetime licences are required to install things on hardware.

As to knowing what is in the expansion if you don't have access to any Zenology subscription, Roland have Soundcloud demos, and since the wave expansions are just software versions of the old JV/XV cards, you can go on YouTube and no doubt find someone going through the old presets on the original hardware.

[xogmusic]

When you say a lifetime key, you mean for the specific pack i.e. £19.99 or whatever. Also how do you know what's in the pack and whether it's worth it without being able to audition it in Zenology before buying it?

@arkieboy already explained it. In Zenology Pro you can audition the presets and tones/wave forms inside of them after downloading them. You can load the Zenology plug-in in your DAW and route the midi from a keyboard, the GM-800 etc. I prefer editing inside Zenology Pro and assigning CCs etc., instead of using the assigns of the GM-800. I've modified a lot of presets using a TEControl breath control and mapping CC2 to cut and level among others. That's more visual than using the assigns of the GM-800.

[Nobulusprime]

@arkieboy already explained it. In Zenology Pro you can audition the presets and tones/wave forms inside of them after downloading them. You can load the Zenology plug-in in your DAW and route the midi from a keyboard, the GM-800 etc. I prefer editing inside Zenology Pro and assigning CCs etc., instead of using the assigns of the GM-800. I've modified a lot of presets using a TEControl breath control and mapping CC2 to cut and level among others. That's more visual than using the assigns of the GM-800.

That's great, makes sense now. I'm guessing the CC assigns are maintained when you bring the modified tone over to the GM800?
One final question (for now at least ) I'm guessing you have to use Zenology as a plug-in in a DAW, i.e. there's no standalone version like you have with Native Instruments etc.?

[arkieboy]

I'm hosting mine in MainStage - I didn't notice a stand-alone version ...

[xogmusic]

The CCs you assign in Zenology Pro are indeed contained within the preset. There's no standalone version of the plug-in.

[xogmusic]

BGK-15 cable: $49.99
BGK-30 cable: $69.99

Anyone try to use a wireless solution with TRS instead of these cables?

[Elantric]

Anyone try to use a wireless solution with TRS instead of these cables?

Not possible
Heres why
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=35980.0#msg263611

[keitht]

I'm going control all of the functions with midi by building a simple DIY box with an Arduino Nano. Add an opto coupler for midi input, diodes to prevent sourcing current to the external GM-800 inputs, steal 5V power from the USB port and anything becomes possible. I will have CTL3 CTL4 CTL5 CTL6 EXP1 EXP2 at my midi fingertips.

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Yes, it really works. Full control of all the foot things done with my fingers with a wireless midi controller. Software isn't quite ready to publish, there's an occasional bug in switching modes from expression to switches, but it really works! Having customizable software in between midi and hardware opens up some amazing possibilities. I can switch the CTL signals with adjustable pulse times. A LFO expression modulator is easy, for example.

The design is all solid state, no relays. LED indicators are outboard so they can be located away from the connections. Parts are cheap. Here are the main ones:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G99NNXL
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/579-MCP42010-I-P
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/onsemi-Fairchild/HCPL2731SDM

I will open source this for anyone who wants the design. But I can't wait to show it off!!
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/595-SN74HC05NE4

[arkieboy]

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Yes, it really works. Full control of all the foot things done with my fingers with a wireless midi controller. Software isn't quite ready to publish, there's an occasional bug in switching modes from expression to switches, but it really works! Having customizable software in between midi and hardware opens up some amazing possibilities. I can switch the CTL signals with adjustable pulse times. A LFO expression modulator is easy, for example.

The design is all solid state, no relays. LED indicators are outboard so they can be located away from the connections. Parts are cheap. Here are the main ones:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07G99NNXL
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/579-MCP42010-I-P
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/onsemi-Fairchild/HCPL2731SDM

I will open source this for anyone who wants the design. But I can't wait to show it off!!
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/595-SN74HC05NE4

This deserves its own thread.  

Anyone volunteering to make a circuit board can count on an order from me