SY1K or Not? What Hamlet would have done? (Long Post - avoid if in a hurry)

[pasha811]

I am still doubtful about getting an SY1000. In the past 18 months, thanks to members contributions I have listened to good music, outstanding examples of the capabilities and at the same time read about the reported flaws: Warbles, OSC Synth, GTR 2 MIDI, some overtones heard and some minor glitches here and there.
I followed the firmware saga and saw that SY1000 still needs some love from the OEM and some fixing in the editor. That's confusing for me but it seems that people are enjoying it anyway. Many have sold the legacy devices, while others are keeping those.

Today I have the following setup:


- VG99 Hooked via MIDI to JV1010 (hardware connection)
- GP10 + HOF2 from TC Electronics + RC-1 Looper
- Jam Origin G2M
- DAW : Ableton Live 
... a 2013 iMac melting down slowly.

VG99 is my main machine and it is very satisfactory, including the G2M with JV1010 where I can find nice sounding pads, some solo sounds (sax-trumpet), strings and orchestral sounds which are playable and useful (solos need to pay attention to be played correctly)

GP10 is mainly used as a complement to VG99 because of its special character, Built-in Exp Pedal and recently with FS7 more Patch control. It was supposed to be used with the band but Covid stopped it all. I have uploaded Autana's patches for outstanding Nylons and adjusted Ainsoph's collection to my needs and taste and in the process I have created something new using OSC, GR300 and WAVE Synths. All my attempts to have Pads / solos with OSC have failed except a some patches that I have posted here or used in my last album. By adding HOF2 I have now some better and longer Reverbs as well as Shimmer. The RC-1 complements when I do want to compose / practice without a computer and a DAW.

Jam Origin is mainly used with my old 2012 Macbook Pro when I do not have access to main setup. Sometimes I use it on the main setup for occasional solo and pads, triggering Zebra2 Synth. In that case GP10 is used at all times (without HOF2 and RC1).
I am a basic Keyboard player and sometimes I use Ableton Live tools to go beyond my limitations with finger chords / walled harmony to avoid wrong notes when playing complex jazz chords... shameful. Isn't it?

I have checked my usage and patches and:
I tend to use the GR300 in the VG99 a lot for pads, especially with a perfect 5th added. The same I can do with VG99 and GP10 by having a +7 semitones ALT Tuning applied on top of main guitar (usually Normal PU). The addition of 12 strings guitar makes this even better and like a pad even if the resulting chords are not what I am playing. One of my beloved sound is a solo made with Bowed Synth in VG99 that can't be recreated on GP10. With both I use the normal PU a lot, mixed with V-Guitar when useful. My music tends to allow very few of Synth sounds because I can't play on keyboard all the same chords I know on guitar, hence G2M and Zebra2 when needed.

So why SY1000? First, I will move to Apple Silicon this year and SY1000 has to be compatible! Second, I have developed some expectations about SY1000: Dynamic Synth ability to make my own pads hopefully without the 'drunken guitarist' effect the OSC in GP10 produces sometimes... plus, some experiments with 4 sound sources and good mix of synth plus guitars, Alt Tunings. I also think that SY1000 will be a monster machine for synth solos also with a non GK equipped Guitar.

The new audio quality of the engine to me it's not a priority because the quality I got as a bedroom guitarist is enough today with VG and GP. I compose my music or practice with backing tracks, and I feel fine.
The SY1000 price is still high (979 Euros on average) and I haven't found one used in my normal channels, many shops have it on the shelves for more than one year and discounts are minimal. I might have access to a demo unit soon, used in Roland Show Room but I do not know the price and the wear.

Another idea I got is that I can have some synth sounds via SY200 to complement GP10 (using a normal cable from Guitar to SY100 to GP10).   

If you have read up to here you are an hero and you deserve all of my appreciation and respect!
So what's the common sense ?

Thanks
Paolo

[Kevin M]

If you are considering an SY200, I'd opt for the 300 instead.  It has far more capabilities. You should be able to find a gently used one pretty easily.

The SY1k still has some 'glitchiness', even at the latest firmware.  However, with a bit of effort, it can be tamed. I'm hopeful, but not overly confident that this will be truly fixed with a future update. Glitches aside it's a remarkable unit, and you can easily get lost for days exploring what it's capable of.

[pasha811]

If you are considering an SY200, I'd opt for the 300 instead.  It has far more capabilities. You should be able to find a gently used one pretty easily.

The SY1k still has some 'glitchiness', even at the latest firmware.  However, with a bit of effort, it can be tamed. I'm hopeful, but not overly confident that this will be truly fixed with a future update. Glitches aside it's a remarkable unit, and you can easily get lost for days exploring what it's capable of.

Thanks Kevin, so you do see fit SY1000 for my use case?

[fokof]

Can't answer your question but I'say : if you go for the SY1000 , keep the VG99 for a while

[pasha811]

Can't answer your question but I'say : if you go for the SY1000 , keep the VG99 for a while

Ideally I'd keep GP10 and VG99 for some time.
Thanks for suggestion that reinforces my personal judgment.

[BROCKSTAR]

I say why not have it all if you can! I'm enjoying that each unit has it's own limits and beauty.

However regarding sy-200... I wouldn't go for it or sy-1 as they are limited when it comes to controls and parameters.

Sy-300 is much better, but if you do go with sy-1000 (although I like the effects a bit more in sy-300 compared to sy-1000 but the sy-1000 effects is fine enough), you pretty much already have a sy-300 / sy-200 / sy-1 built into the guitar input side of the sy-1000 as the dynamic synth oscillators (the only synth you can control with guitar input) sound exactly the same in sy-1000 as they do in sy-300 / sy-200 / sy-1 and I got a video on the sy-300 vs sy-1000 guitar input showcasing that if you haven't seen it.

The sy-1000 shines much brighter when used with a 13-pin device of course, making the dynamic synth much warmer among other things the box is capable of doing with the 13-pin device.

To me the sy-1000 is like they took parts of vg-99, gp-10, sy-300 and put it all in a box, but still even with them all in one box, the individual units still sound different enough alone as well if that makes sense, which is kind of cool having them all lol

[pasha811]

I say why not have it all if you can! I'm enjoying that each unit has it's own limits and beauty.

However regarding sy-200... I wouldn't go for it or sy-1 as they are limited when it comes to controls and parameters.

Sy-300 is much better, but if you do go with sy-1000 (although I like the effects a bit more in sy-300 compared to sy-1000 but the sy-1000 effects is fine enough), you pretty much already have a sy-300 / sy-200 / sy-1 built into the guitar input side of the sy-1000 as the dynamic synth oscillators (the only synth you can control with guitar input) sound exactly the same in sy-1000 as they do in sy-300 / sy-200 / sy-1 and I got a video on the sy-300 vs sy-1000 guitar input showcasing that if you haven't seen it.

The sy-1000 shines much brighter when used with a 13-pin device of course, making the dynamic synth much warmer among other things the box is capable of doing with the 13-pin device.

To me the sy-1000 is like they took parts of vg-99, gp-10, sy-300 and put it all in a box, but still even with them all in one box, the individual units still sound different enough alone as well if that makes sense, which is kind of cool having them all lol

Great Brock! Thank you.
Now it's up to me to decide where to put the money depending on my use case lol.:-)
Thing is that I bought Gp10 and I use it 25% of the time and I do not want SY1K to go down that route.
There's chance that the meltin' pot that SY1K is makes it catchy for some time... lol.

[Gsnorgathon]

... VG99 is my main machine and it is very satisfactory ...

Seems to me you may have answered your question right there. No reason not to experiment with new gear, but "very satisfactory" sounds pretty good to me.

[Brak(E)man]

Keep everything you can.
Get the SY-1000, even with its shortcomings it's the best guitar synth in many ways yet.
And the ability to combine three instruments into a new ( see https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27811.0 )
makes it very unique and useful

[Tosh]

You didn't specify any recording needs, but it's worth noting that the SY1000 works as a superb interface. For me, the 8 track output on USB is fantastic (as my instrument is a 4 string bass, 2 of the tracks don't get used).

My opinion is that if your instrument has a polyphonic output (either 4, 5, or 6 strings) then the SY1000 is the pedal to get

[pasha811]

You didn't specify any recording needs, but it's worth noting that the SY1000 works as a superb interface. For me, the 8 track output on USB is fantastic (as my instrument is a 4 string bass, 2 of the tracks don't get used).

My opinion is that if your instrument has a polyphonic output (either 4, 5, or 6 strings) then the SY1000 is the pedal to get

Two guitars with GK(3 and 2A)
I have 4in / 4 out Audio interface, hooked to a Mixer, I record guitar plus JV1010 usually on separate tracks (mono or stereo) or as a stereo mix.
This in only for the pads. The solo stuff is recorded mono and usually comes from VG99 or GP10. As an exception it might come from JV1010 or resolved directly in the DAW via JAM Origin. I have never used re.guitar on my GP10, I'm pretty traditional here, layering instruments until I got the desired result because I always want to mimic a band : Drums, Bass, max two guitars (Solo + rhythm) , two keyboards, if any, two vocals. The number of recorded tracks varies depending on the part recorded but the instruments usually remain the same or in case of keyboards some patch change might happen. Hope this answers your question.

[gumtown]

If this:
"The soliloquy is essentially all about life and death: "To SY1K or not to SY1K" means "To live or not to live" (or "To live or to die"). Hamlet discusses how painful and miserable human life is, and how death (specifically suicide) would be preferable, would it not be for the fearful uncertainty of what comes after death."

is your options, then I say go for the SY-1000 and live life fully to the edge.

The SY complaints are more like first world issues, compared to the whole package, and given that the GT-1000 has recently been updated, I am placing my bets that the SY-1000 is going to see a similar update. (at least new cabinets and the BTS slowness issue fixed).

Your current setup combined does have similarities to the SY-1000, but there is something about the SY-1000 that is a bit more magical, can't quite put my finger on it, but it is very likable. 

[Nobulusprime]

The pros outway the cons on the SY1000. The SY1k would make your GP10 largely redundant as you don't get a lot of extra with that unit -barring the wavesynth and a built in expression pedal. You also get a better (IMO) wavesynth with the VG99.

I have crabbed about the issues with the SY1000 because some of them are super frustrating especially the OSC synth and pitch to midi, but on balance the SY1000 is massive +. Hopefully the fixes for the SY1000 are on the cards and that would make a great unit a lot better. Add some better reverbs and some new cabs or better still a users IR option it would unbeatable. Not getting rid of mine anytime soon and if it went down I'd buy another in a flash.

[pasha811]

Thanks a lot for input, Food for thoughts!

[sixeight]

The SY-1000 has become my main rig. Some of the amps are amazing. I recently added an HX-stomp. This combo is more powerful IMHO than the VG99 into the Helix.

Just make a rig of two les Paul's into two x-mod amps. Pan left right and add some reverb and delay. Fun for months. I love that sound. Never could get that out of the Helix.

[aliensporebomb]

Lets see.   Pads?   Pads on the SY-1000?   

Well here's one of mine:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/colorwash-sy-1000-patch-demo

But, that's not using any of the onboard synths.  That's just processed guitar so there's no delay or mistracking.
I'll be uploading some variations of this patch soon.  I find switching up the frequency range the patch is located changes the timbre nicely.

Here's another live jam SY-1000 track but I borrowed Nobulusprime's wonderful "Eternal Wheel" Ozric Tentacles sequence (and added some delay to it to mess with the rhythmic feel) to jam with my string patch here:

https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/several-minutes-of-entertainment-sy-1000-test

I added a little guitar solo at the end of that one.   

All sounds SY-1000- and nothing else.

I keep meaning to make a recording of my 3-way splitter box to allow me to drive the VG-99, SY-1000 and GP-10 at the same time but that's a lotta cabling to the mixer.

[gumtown]

In addition to the above, the SY-1000 USB also does 8-in 8-out audio,
so you could use the next forthcoming version of "Midi Guitar 3" which is rumored to work with multi channel per string inputs.

Just think of us as little voices on your shoulders

[BROCKSTAR]

Lets see.   Pads?   Pads on the SY-1000?   

Well here's one of mine:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/colorwash-sy-1000-patch-demo

But, that's not using any of the onboard synths.  That's just processed guitar so there's no delay or mistracking.
I'll be uploading some variations of this patch soon.  I find switching up the frequency range the patch is located changes the timbre nicely.

I love that!! Good idea, can pitch up or down or alt-tune the modelled instruments into anything you want and run them through a boss slowgear type effect and wash it all in reverbs and other effects

[kimyo]

....I have developed some expectations about SY1000: Dynamic Synth ability to make my own pads.........plus, some experiments with 4 sound sources and good mix of synth plus guitars, Alt Tunings.

to me, in trying to view things thru your eyes, the enjoyment you might derive from programming patches is the key criteria.  if, as with the gp-10, you find that creating sounds is a primary and ongoing source of creative stimulation, then the sy-1000 will be 900 euros well spent. 

however, if recording/looping gives you more pleasure i believe you'll get more bang for the buck by adding more synths like zebra or a hardware/rackmount unit and methods to manipulate them (modulation, pitchbend, breath control, patch blend). 

the subject wasn't raised, but to me a key secondary criteria would be if you have an amp modelling solution you prefer to the gt-1000. 

at the bottom would be guitar modeling quality (as you're already driving a pair of porsches, sure, that baby blue maserati does have a nice throaty rumble, but will it really get you there that much faster?).

ps: i use ableton chord adg's religiously.  lots of fun to put one on one string only, with or without an arpeggiator.  the guilty feeling is temporary, in my case.

[pasha811]

to me, in trying to view things thru your eyes, the enjoyment you might derive from programming patches is the key criteria.  if, as with the gp-10, you find that creating sounds is a primary and ongoing source of creative stimulation, then the sy-1000 will be 900 euros well spent. 

however, if recording/looping gives you more pleasure i believe you'll get more bang for the buck by adding more synths like zebra or a hardware/rackmount unit and methods to manipulate them (modulation, pitchbend, breath control, patch blend). 

the subject wasn't raised, but to me a key secondary criteria would be if you have an amp modelling solution you prefer to the gt-1000. 

at the bottom would be guitar modeling quality (as you're already driving a pair of porsches, sure, that baby blue maserati does have a nice throaty rumble, but will it really get you there that much faster?).

ps: i use ableton chord adg's religiously.  lots of fun to put one on one string only, with or without an arpeggiator.  the guilty feeling is temporary, in my case.

Thanks for trying to look at things from my perspective.
My aim is to record my compositions. I use to record the first layer, a chord progression with a sound that has some pad characteristics so I have abused VG99 GR300 in many ways or I used in conjunction with reverb and alt tunings my guitar to have that feeling. After that Zebra comes in played with a keyboard. I appreciate your comment on using Ableron without feeling 'guilty'. I used to be a Bass Player in a band so when it's time I add the bass guitar. My Ibanez is a great instrument with fantastic sound. When all the layers are ready it's time to record a solo. All over the years .i have created 5 sounds on VG99 that I use a lot, to the point that I could bore the listeners. That's why in the last years I have created some solo sounds on the GP10 using OSC, playable but frustrating at times. So my expectations on the SY1000 are not those to experiment with ambient music but having a box of tones to record the pad layer I need and have better solo sounds than the ones I got from GP10 OSC. That's why Dynamic Synth is the great opportunity to me. However SY1000 might turn out to be redundant (as I wrote VG99 does a lot as main gear), or not deliver what I have in mind, kind of prophet 5 pads, strings, some articulations via the two sequences and arpeggios, played with no expression pedal, as I do with the keyboard. A sustain pedal is all I need to change chords. VG99 and JV1010 give me a sort of GR55 ability and the result is lush pads and good playability. When it comes to solo I am not overall satisfied as some patch on jv1010 exhibits odd behavior in response to bending. So I was asking myself what ?I can do with 979 euros to renew my gear? Will it be a box of playable solo tones or it will behave as GP10 OSC (I like GP10 a lot but OSC sometimes is frustrating)? Will it help me with pads played as a chord progression layer without messing up with midi and zebra? I could invest that money in other hardware of software. That's my chain of thoughts ...I have all the guitar sounds I need, all the JV1010 I need for pads and the solo department needs improvement (as my skills lol). That's why I was thinking to SY200 / used SY300 but the whole package one gets from SY1000 is tempting.

Thanks again for help!
Paolo

[kimyo]

When it comes to solo I am not overall satisfied as some patch on jv1010 exhibits odd behavior in response to bending.

does it happen in both mono and poly mode? 

is the jv-1010 one of those multi-layered devices?  sometimes each voice has a separate pitchbend setting.

seems like this should be solvable. 

[pasha811]

does it happen in both mono and poly mode? 

is the jv-1010 one of those multi-layered devices?  sometimes each voice has a separate pitchbend setting.

seems like this should be solvable.

Happens in both modes. Jv1010 is a multitimbral module.
16 channels, 16 sounds at the same time. Unfortunately you cannot save performance presets from the unit. So I use patch (1 channel, 1 sound) and poly mode on vg99. Restoring the editor needs a virtual machine. Too old...but it can be done. However the same happens with zebra in both modes.

[pasha811]

Lets see.   Pads?   Pads on the SY-1000?   

Well here's one of mine:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/colorwash-sy-1000-patch-demo

But, that's not using any of the onboard synths.  That's just processed guitar so there's no delay or mistracking.
I'll be uploading some variations of this patch soon.  I find switching up the frequency range the patch is located changes the timbre nicely.

Here's another live jam SY-1000 track but I borrowed Nobulusprime's wonderful "Eternal Wheel" Ozric Tentacles sequence (and added some delay to it to mess with the rhythmic feel) to jam with my string patch here:

https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/several-minutes-of-entertainment-sy-1000-test

I added a little guitar solo at the end of that one.   

All sounds SY-1000- and nothing else.

I keep meaning to make a recording of my 3-way splitter box to allow me to drive the VG-99, SY-1000 and GP-10 at the same time but that's a lotta cabling to the mixer.

Great patches - the ASB signature! 
I have tried to compose some ambient piece but I have to admit I am not into it.
Sure the SY1000 it's a beast! However can it be a Keyboard Synth substitution? Or can I play it and record it in lieu of Synth as layers of 80's 90's music? so fast changing pads and chord progression. What's your experience with it? 

[kimyo]

A sustain pedal is all I need to change chords.

when you do get your hands on an sy-1000, test out the sustain options, their behavior may not suit keyboardists who moonlight as synth-guitarists.

[chrish]

when you do get your hands on an sy-1000, test out the sustain options, their behavior may not suit keyboardists who moonlight as synth-guitarists.

agree, not a big fan of the hold features in SY1000 or the SY300.

The VG99 does that better imo. However I use sustain on my midi controlled analog and digital external synths, sampler and GR50 guitar synth in lue of holding anything on the SY1000.

BTW, the SY1000 does great GR300 pads, and dynamic synth pads such as strings.