SY-1000 Owners Poll - DSP Alt Tuning results.

Started by admin, October 13, 2021, 01:33:59 PM

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admin

SY-1000 Owners Poll - DSP Alt Tuning results Poll.
Vote as many times as you require for all instruments you have used with SY-1000.

One has to be careful you're not listening to the acoustic sound of your guitar which can disturb your ears when using alt-tune. 
Use closed back headphones,  or  turn up the Amplifier to drown out conflicting natural pitch of vibrating strings .

I don't have severe warbles with my SY-1000 setup - using Tyler JTV-69 ( without engaging the Variax DSP) , with a GK-3 mounted to it driving the SY-1000

Same guitar has only a few warbles with Boss GP-10 as well- only apparent on complex chords, or if picking strings too hard creating adjacent string pickup crosstalk

While I well understand numerous folks do experience  warble Alt tuning issues on both those GK Processors



Here is what Alex Hutchings can accomplish with SY-1000 using a GC-1 Strat with internal mag GK pickup



I would never use it to record , -its simply a tool to get through a gig - step on a switch & enable open G tuning so band can play Led Zeppelin "Dancing Days" -the drums hide any flutter  anomalies at live gig

mgregg

In open E, I can literally hear two notes on my G string when tuned down a half step. Which is really, really bad since that's a minor and major third at the same time. Totally unusable in any situation.

Brak(E)man

There's no GK 1 or GK 2 to vote on.
Quite a few of my guitars have gk2 and
I have two of the considered more "stable" guitars when it's about guitar to midi.
ROlanD G707 and Ibanez IMG 2010 , they warble and they had the SY gnarles before 1.06.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

admin

#3
Quote from: mgregg on October 13, 2021, 01:46:05 PM
In open E, I can literally hear two notes on my G string when tuned down a half step. Which is really, really bad since that's a minor and major third at the same time. Totally unusable in any situation.

Common response is use closed back headphones,  or  turn up the Amplifier to drown out conflicting natural pitch of vibrating strings .

And check guitars intonation at bridge,  as this does impact the DSP ability to deliver proper pitch

gumtown

#4
My SY-1000 gets used mostly in Bass (gig) mode, and I use 5 & 6 string basses fitted with a GK-3B or GK-Kit-BG3 (internal kit),
and one hybrid GK3 pickup into a GK-3B body (due to narrow string spacing on a Squier Bass VI).
Also a few guitars with GK-3 and GK-2A fitted too.

Only use alternate tuning on a couple of songs, no warble issues in bass mode, even when playing dyads and triads, but just the sound is a little off in harmonic content, but I have just put that down to the nature of pitch shifting, where string harmonics (relative to gauge/length/intonation) will be off when pitch shifted from its natural state.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Nobulusprime

I have minor and major warbles from different guitars with GK3 internals. The guitar definitely plays a part but it's not frets (open strings do it), how I play, tried hard soft finger style and pick.

For example, I've got a beautiful Godin LGXSA (fixed bridge) from the mid 90s. The SY1000 warbling on 12 string and alt tune was terrible with the stock LR Baggs (under saddle pick up), so much so I took it out and installed a GK3 internal kit. That did improve things a little bit but it still did it. However the warbling did not happen on the VG99 for either the LR Baggs or the GK3, nor did it on the VG8EX.

All this suggest to me that the problem is multifactorial. Definitely guitars play a part (not players of guitars - different guitars, different results - same player) probably not so much set ups of the guitars (I've tried lots of different things here to no avail) but the general tone of the guitar overtones and resonances play a part I'm sure.

The main thing for me is the string detection algorithm which is at fault and the way it interprets different harmonic ratios on certain guitars and strings. It's pretty clear that earlier algorithms on the VG range don't have such a pronounced issue in this area. The VG99, 88 and 8 aren't perfect but they are more stable. I hope Boss Roland could review what worked before and apply to newer tech

kimyo

Quote from: admin on October 13, 2021, 01:33:59 PM
I don't have severe warbles with my SY-1000 setup....

another way of wording this might be 'i do have warbles with my sy-1000', which is what you appear to be saying when you state:

Quote from: admin on October 13, 2021, 01:33:59 PMI would never use it to record

would you use the sy-1000 to record non-alt-tuned tracks? 

admin

#7
Quote from: kimyo on October 13, 2021, 05:06:14 PM


would you use the sy-1000 to record non-alt-tuned tracks?

Yes, for its Synth tones/sound track audio design of course.

But main purpose of ST-1000  ownership is eliminate  bringing 6 guitars in different tunings to play 3 hour gigs with new band-instead I just use SY-1000 to Alt tune my guitars for open tunings for my increased live gig schedule

kimyo

please correct any of these statements:

1) admin does experience warbles with the sy-1000.
2) admin's guitar has been selected/setup by one of the top three v-guitar luthiers in the world, based on his vast experience and extensive know-how, to be as close to perfect as possible for v-guitar operation.
3) admin's technique is very advanced, and superbly adapted to the use of vg processors.  among the guitarists who use vg alt-tuning he has only a handful of peers.
4) the warbles (and the warbles only?) are the reason admin won't record alt-tuned material.

i think we're really mostly in the same place here.  what we're fine-tuning is not IF there are warbles but if they are 'SEVERE'.

perhaps the only open question is if you have a similar experience as brakeman, in terms of seeing near-zero warbles on older gr units with your variax.

i'm ready to conclude that it's (mostly) the algorithms.  aside from the above, this is supported by 1) antares delivering the goods (re: alt-tuning) and 2) fishman delivering the goods (re: guitar to midi). 

aliensporebomb

#9
INST1 -> Compressor, EQ1, Chorus, FX2 = Harmonist (set to UNISON to roughen the sound a little) FX1 = Delay 342ms + 66% regen
Poly FX set Alt tune -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5
Then Delay 1 467 ms + 69% regen
Then mod reverb 3.9s time 74ms predelay etc

https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/we-r-testing-roland-sy-1000-patch-pitch-shift-test

Stays pretty rock solid.  I've got more if you want it.
Two GK equipped guitars:   Roland Ready Strat with GK2A and Jackson Soloist with GK3.

Running v1.06 pre-release software on the SY-1000.   I've got several other patches that have big pitch shifts.  -5, -12, +12, etc.  You can do a lot even doing alt tune 0 for a thickening/doubling effect.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

Quote from:  Bluesbird on October 13, 2021, 07:25:16 PM
As far as the Pitch to MIDI, the Fishman algorithms are patented and proprietary. Unless Boss is able to license them, Boss pitch to midi will always be lacking.
Roland GR50 midi out to external synth tracks extremely well using an Atlantis hex fx guitar, with the caveat being not all external synths track the same.

aliensporebomb

#11
Good call.   Some synths (hardware) and indeed some synth patches have slower attack vectors so aren't suited for fast playing.  We could discuss ones with known fast response like the original GR-300, that was a fast box.

Getting back to the topic of alt-tune - one has to be careful you're not listening to the acoustic sound of your guitar which can disturb your ears when using alt-tune.  But I am aware of people who do have warbles.

So how about this: do you have a patch you want to share that does warbling?   Share it among us and we can ALL test it in a methodical way, lets see if we can "force the issue" by all testing the same patch playing the same song.    It might be something as weird as using a GK pickup versus piezo hex or the like.   I'm game if anyone wants to share a patch that seems to always have the issue.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

admin

QuoteGood call.   Some synths (hardware) and indeed some synth patches have slower attack vectors so aren't suited for fast playing.  We could discuss ones with known fast response like the original GR-300, that was a fast box.

Back 1990s , Keyboard mag did a shoot out of which Synth  responded fastest to external MIDI, -the results varied and back then an Alexis Q8 /(QSR rack)responded the fastest-lowest latency
https://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/qsrack.php

admin

The Poll results so far align with my prediction
SY-1000 DSP Alt tuning is close enough for rock & roll.
Encourage others to keep voting

szilard

I'll vote later today, I want to check a few things. The only warbling I've noticed is on the 12 string setting. Godin LGXT and Fender Am Strat with GK-2.

admin

Quote from: szilard on October 14, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
I'll vote later today, I want to check a few things. The only warbling I've noticed is on the 12 string setting. Godin LGXT and Fender Am Strat with GK-2.

Others report issues with 12 string Alt tuning as well  (Aure)

chrish

Kind of a mixed bag of results and needed to use headphones and careful listening to hear the warbles.

Tested Roland G505 with GK3
Wilcox Atlantis Hex Fx
Godin Nylon string SA with RMC piezo

On patch 09-3  with the Atlantis hex fx guitar playing an open G string after 2 seconds the pitch would  fluctuate.  But that completely went away when the headstock was held against a firm surface. So stable when the neck was stabilised.

Same patch with the GK3 and RMC piezo did not produce that same pitch fluctuation.

Playing a double 12 string patch and patch 09-3 I could hear some noise artifacts on only the high E &B strings on all those guitars

The order of best to worse noise artifacts was Atlantis, Godin, GK3

I would not hesitate to use the alt tuning of SY 1000 in a live performance if I was still doing that.

aliensporebomb

I'll be working on some tests this evening.  Stay tuned (no pun intended).
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

szilard

Quote from: admin on October 14, 2021, 10:16:58 AM
Others report issues with 12 string Alt tuning as well  (Aure)
Just checked and didn't get the warbles with 12 string Alt tuning on either guitar. All seems to be well.

aliensporebomb

#19
I didn't get any warbles. 
And I tried nutty things like:
-three 12-string acoustic guitars pitched at +12 and +24
-and/or +12 +12 +12 or
- tuning down 12 -12 -12 or
- +7 -7 +7
But all it did is work normally.

But I started pitching things WAY out of their normal range and did get some of the weirdest GK sound I've ever gotten - I find as you start to pitch strings really high or really low you sometimes start getting a weirdly distant analog tape type effect - it was actually really cool. 

It was similar to my Crazy Warm patch on the VG-99 but as you hear it, imagine many undulations of the pitch and some of the chordal bits sound like voices - in one small section it sounds like analog tape degredation.   Really strange in many ways.  I have a recording of it!

https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/reallylow-boss-sy-1000-programming-test-of-extreme-pitch-shifting



My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Kevin M

Has this poll been referenced on Facebook? Only 25 votes so far.

admin

#21
Quote from: Kevin M on October 15, 2021, 05:48:10 AM
Has this poll been referenced on Facebook? Only 25 votes so far.

Yes -both SY-1000 group, and VGUITARFORUMS  group.

And many Facebook members will not join VGUITARFORUMS. Vice versa, many VGUITARFORUMS.com members will never join Facebook

And we know for every SY-1000 sold,
Boss sells one hundred GT-1000's
and one thousand Katana amps.

And I figure only 20% of SY-1000 owners are aware of VGUITARFORUMS

Despite that. So far the poll voting reflects the same distribution results I suspected a week ago, no surprises

kimyo

#22
Quote from:  Bluesbird on October 13, 2021, 07:25:16 PMAs far as the Pitch to MIDI, the Fishman algorithms are patented and proprietary. Unless Boss is able to license them, Boss pitch to midi will always be lacking.

boss could still optimize their existing code and look for inefficiencies.

Quote from: chrish on October 14, 2021, 11:50:31 AMThe order of best to worse noise artifacts was Atlantis, Godin, GK3

I would not hesitate to use the alt tuning of SY 1000 in a live performance if I was still doing that.

i also wouldn't hesitate to use alt-tuned acoustic models in live performance, odds are only 1 out of 100 audience members would ever hear a warble.  i probably won't even hear half of them. 

the problem for me is the next day when i'm mixing the audio down to post online.  as a lot of the music is vocals/guitar/bass only, i believe the warbles will be quite evident, based on my studio time with the sy-1000.  a typical song might have 3 or 4, maybe i can edit them out, if it's 5 or 6 maybe i'll discard the take. 

this is never an issue if i manually tune the guitar, so if time allows, i'll retune.  if i have a 20 minute set for the local battle of the bands, then i'll alt-tune. 

also i don't have warbles on the dynamic synths.  it's the acoustic models which present issues for me.

Dunny Daw

I saw a video by Nobulusprime some time ago, where he picked a note and sustained it, and it changed after a period of time.  Is this the issue (the warbles) we are talking about?

Or is it the issue Brak(e)man described in some of his posts about 12 months ago, where he described (from memory) two different concerns he noticed?

Brak(E)man

#24
Quote from: Dunny Daw on October 17, 2021, 12:29:59 AM
I saw a video by Nobulusprime some time ago, where he picked a note and sustained it, and it changed after a period of time.  Is this the issue (the warbles) we are talking about?

Or is it the issue Brak(e)man described in some of his posts about 12 months ago, where he described (from memory) two different concerns he noticed?

What Nobulusprime showcased where the gnarles (if I'm not mistaken) , they're gone with firmware 1.06
but the GP-10 alt tune warbles can be heard here. ( the first part of the example )
they're still present in the SY and boss didn't address them in this firmware.
(And I'm hoping they'll not jump ship after this imho silly "discussion".)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18614.0



I recorded my example 2014 (not many back then thought it to be
the GP but something else. Guitars, setting up the GK etc etc.)
It's still the same assumption....

The same warbles are present on the SY-1000.

The same sort of "mistrust" and trying to discredit the warbling issue and the person posting, was taking place after I pointed to the problem. I don't know why I'd try to deliberately lie about a issue?....

Ive never said anything about whether others had warbling issues with VGs fi.
Never claimed as people are doing now , since I don't have a warbling issue
It doesn't exist or it's not very noticeable or it's down to some flaw on either your guitar or how you play it.

My guitars and playing has worked and are still working with the alt tune etc on all the VGs
but not on the GP-10 nor the SY-1000

These discussions has become a mystery to me.

It's obvious that the problem are there. Trying to downplay the warbles or blame the guitars or playing technique doesn't make any sense.

Up until these discussions popped up , the vguitarforum has been a helpful and friendly place.
And the discussion started out friendly and helpful
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13752.0
But I feel that it reached another phase somewhere along line when this warbling thing
could not be explained......
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch