Author Topic: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?  (Read 19461 times)

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Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2011, 06:17:13 PM »
But hey Jeremy,
Congratulations, looks like you are VGuitarForums member #3000  !!



Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 06:17:40 PM »
Man that is terrible,,, :'(

I guess I am one of the lucky ones never noticed any reaction to it, 

another thing to consider is using wireless mics, some of the electronics in them are tiny and you could easily in theory take 6 of them apart and put all of them in one very small box that would be close to the size of a regular transmitter.

The biggest problem I can see for RackVax is supplying power to 6 transmitters at once....each one generally used 1 9v battery....if you could find some way to get around that maybe find microphones that operate off of 1 AA...6 of those in a box or one 9V equivalent would not be too bad.

keep shinin

jerm  8)

Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 06:18:47 PM »
But hey Jeremy,
Congratulations, looks like you are VGuitarForums member #3000  !!

(Image removed from quote.)
WOOHOO! party on the big boat!

keep shinin

jerm  8)

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 06:22:28 PM »
Jeremy, In honor of your special achievement,

enjoy this episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000



We had planned on awarding VguitarForum member #3000 a special gift,to commemorate our expanding user forum, but we can not locate the walwart for it ;)

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:27:27 PM by Elantric »

Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2011, 06:28:08 PM »
Jeremy, In honor of your special achievement,

enjoy this episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000



We had planned on awarding VguitarForum member #3000 as special gift, but we can not locate the walwart for it

(Image removed from quote.)

Hey thanx!

but I ain't achieved nothin yet,  ;D
we get a wireless prototype going then it will be time to bust out the congratulatory bottle of champagne!  ;)

Gumby....man take me back a ways....

Speaking of wall warts.....I recently eliminated 10 of them from my racks!
Yes, I designed and built a 9v power supply 1U rack that supplies all of them now....working on fitting a 12V one in the same rack to get rid of the rest.....Free my brothers FREE at last!

Gotta go..will pop in later and see if anyone has any other suggestions for this project.

keep shinin

jerm  8)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:34:52 PM by jeremysdemo »

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2011, 06:34:47 PM »
Quote
Yes, I designed and built a 9v power supply 1U rack that supplies all of them now....working on fitting a 12V one in the same rack to get rid of the rest.....Free my brothers FREE at last!


Post a pic!

Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2011, 06:41:07 PM »
Not much to see....just a plain gray face 1U rack I got from a computer wholesaler with a power switch on the front....I don't know what it was used for before scuzzy drives or something.....

OR did you mean a picture of the insides....and back panel...that's were all the action is.  ;D

Standard 9V 35amp power supply inside you can get at any electronic component outlet, some wires that lead to a channel strip on the back a few fuses....in hindsight I should have taken pictures for a DIY tutorial but I was too caught up in the excitement of being rid of those pesky black boxes!
Will document the next one better....(might start building them and selling them on Ebay like the Footar!)

keep shinin

jerm  8)


Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 07:58:49 AM »
3 of these would do it:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc8520.html

That's texas Intruments RF SOC, since they are stereo, we can send two signals per unit.

They only require 3v, many other similar quality and size devices on the market.

manufacturing begins in March, will post a link to finished units.  ;)

price range is going to be $150~200 for complete unit, but will sell DIY kit's with breakout wire adapter for $40.

The DYI kit uses already available manufactured products with your choice of battery packs (AA powered, usb powered like iphone battery chargers ect..) you will be give a list and URLS to the devices and the breakout wires for the GK's to hook them all up.


keep shinin

jerm  8)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 08:05:58 AM by jeremysdemo »

Online gumtown

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2011, 07:27:27 PM »
Forget about having multiple transmitters and receivers, the answer is in high speed multiplexing, and using one wideband transmitter/receiver setup.
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/40/402535_1.pdf
I would go for digital multiplexing, including the 6 analog/digital hexpickup channels, plus the GK volume and S1/2 switches as part of the digital in band signalling.
 For the hexpickups, i would think 12 to 16 bit sampling would be sufficient, which you could possibly squeeze it all into about 128 Kb bandwidth.
I wouldn't bother with the 2.4GHz frequency either, everyone and everything uses it, 5.6GHz band is still relatively free.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:34:10 PM by gumtown »
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Offline jeremysdemo

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2011, 06:10:59 PM »
Some interesting observations, thank you for sharing them.

Multiplexing was talked about before, but if it was that simple companies like rackvax that talked about it 2 years ago would have something to market by now, http://www.rackvax.com/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10.
The bulkiness of a multiplex device's and their power supplies was also mentioned.(we are talking portable wireless prototype)

transmitters in the 5.6GHz band seem to have a greater range, but their expense certainly reflect that:

http://www.appliedwireless.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=2&ParentCat=1

For 1/4 the price of one of these ^^^ systems, you could get 3 of these:

http://www.gtadigital.com/?product_detail&ID=144

Yes they are in the 2.4 range (16 channel selectable) with only 4ms delay at 25ft, but they are smaller than most transmitters so 3 of them together would not weigh much or take up too much space, also they can be powered by thin long lasting USB battery devices (like an portable Ipod charger/power supply) just one idea, would prefer to use the TI stuff and integrate all three stereo transmitters into one board and chassis.

As far as I know the "volume" is for the guitar signal not each individual pick up, most people send their regular guitar pickup signals elsewhere (not through the GK) so that volume nobs does not get used. Midi volume as well as the program changes can all be controlled by other devices so it is not a necessity for those controls to be transmitted, seriously who is changing those program numbers with that goofy knob as they are playing? not me, all my program changes on modules are either done with pedals or control tracks....so my hands are free to PLAY!  ;D

Trying to put together a cost effective practical affordable wireless system for the audio only from this pickup, if this was going to be a marketable product put out by a fortune 500 company yes multiplexing and 5.6 frequency would be the starting ground......and $1000 price tag would be the finish line.
PS*
I read that pdf, 24bit 192k completely unnecessary for wireless live audio transmittance especially when the "audio" is never heard.....

Great ideas! keep them coming.  ;)

keep shinin

jerm  8)



« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 06:19:03 PM by jeremysdemo »

Online gumtown

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 10:02:44 PM »
Here is something interesting, a complete high quality 4 channel transceiver on a chip, using the 2.4GHz ISM band with auto frequency hopping.
Two of these and you have a hex + normal PU and GK Volume using A/D D/A converters, plus each chip has a few digital I/O's spare too for S1/S2 + GK selector.

You can get two different varieties of the this chip, one Analog>digital>analog, and the other analog>digital>USB.
Latency down to 10.7 ms, and up to 16bit 48kHz digital audio.

There may be hope yet for a compact wireless GK system..

http://www.ti.com/ww/en/analog/cc8520/index.shtml?DCMP=hpa_rf_cc8520&HQS=Other+OT+purepathwireless
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 10:05:58 PM by gumtown »
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2012, 12:58:49 AM »
Quote
Latency down to 10.7 ms,

Sounds interesting  - ( I learned about the T.I. Purepath Wireless chipset a few weeks ago.)
They advertise "configurable, <20ms"


However, while that  10.7 ms wireless transmission latency at first appears adequate for live use, for most MIDI guitarists I know, it  translates into very diminishing interest IMHO.

How many are willing to accept an additional 10- 20 milliseconds latency for wireless?

Also those T.I. Purepath Wireless audio chips are the building blocks, but the burden of obtaining the necessary FCC  / CE approval remains with the final system integrator.

I perform this type FCC testing with my "day gig" products , and its typically around $7k to $10K to obtain an FCC Certification for a new wireless product, therefore who ever designs with these chips must factor in those FCC Certification fees into the total design costs.     

It all boils down to nobody is getting rich designing gear for MIDI guitarists.



 

Offline arkieboy

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2012, 03:59:51 AM »

What you are asking is - to a first approximation - a bus powered wireless 24 bit, 8 channel USB2 audio interface with midi.  7 channels for the audio, send S1, S2 and the controller according to midi protocol.  Wireless USB is good for 110Mbit/s at 10m: 24bit * 96k * 8 = 18Mbit/s so no bandwidth or sound quality issues.  A decent laptop battery should be able to power one of these for 3hrs.

Discuss

Of course, I'm not questioning that bringing one to market and making some money out of it would be a problem ...

Steve


https://www.facebook.com/stephen.john.harris
http://www.agnieszkaswita.com
www.arkmusic.co.uk

Brian Moore and Patrick Eggle controllers
Roland VG99/Axon AX100 MkII
Marshall JMP1
TC Electronic G Major
Marshall EL84/20-20
Marshall 1912 (x2)
Roland FC300/Behringer FCB2020

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2012, 07:53:45 AM »
Nobody wants to carry the weight of a laptop battery.

(There are other lighter energy sources BTW )
But more importantly  - the potential market for a "wireless 13 pin" system is becoming exceedingly diminished with the imminent release of the wireless Fishman TriplePlay, which I predict will capture bulk of the market for Guitar to MIDI users, leaving the main market for a wireless 13 pin device with the COSM Guitar Users (VG-99, VB-99)   

which we already know reflects 0.01% of the Guitar market.

Do the math and it becomes an exercise in burning money, with diminishing paths for economic return.

As my Dad used to say - "Its like designing and building a Rudder for a Duck Then blame the marketing department for lack of sales."




But certainly there are other guitarists who would want wireless multichannel audio - the Ricky Graham PD folks
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4222.msg28621#msg28621
I look forward to the T.I. Purepath Audio chips on pre- FCC approved  modules from a third party integrator, who absorbs the FCC certification costs.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:45:22 AM by admsustainiac »

Online gumtown

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2012, 04:16:30 PM »
I think the best way around latency issues is to go the old fashioned analog R.F. way,
and yes, a commercial venture would certainly be unprofitable and unsustainable.
The only way around 'legal issues' is to supply D.I.Y preassembled short-form boards or kitsets.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2012, 04:24:05 PM »
Quote
I look forward to the T.I. Purepath Audio chips on pre- FCC approved  modules from a third party integrator, who absorbs the FCC certification costs.

Found some
http://www.anaren.com/products/wireless-audio-air-solutions

http://www.anaren.com/sites/default/files/Part-Datasheets/A8520E24A91_0.pdf

http://www.anaren.com/sites/default/files/user-manuals/A8520E24A91_Users_Manual.pdf

The A8520E24A91 is a high-performance, FCC & IC certified and ETSI compliant audio module based on the Texas Instruments CC8520 transceiver and CC2591 range extender in the industry’s smallest package (11 x 19 x 2.5 mm).
The module incorporates the required RF matching & filtering, crystal, integral antenna, and digital line filtering for good noise reduction and sensitivity. The result is quick low power wireless connectivity without having to deal with extensive protocol, RF, antenna design and regulatory compliance; thereby providing quick time to market. The modules are 100% tested in production to ensure consistent performance. The A8520E24A91 has an RoHS-compliant ENIG finish and is packaged on tape & reel or in matrix



$37 per module

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Anaren/A8520E24A91-EM2/?qs=dFaqhILVACGrvw7iXMxVzOAJAgAljsq%252b
http://www.anaren.com/sites/default/files/Part-Datasheets/A8520E24A91-EM2_0.pdf
Well now - let me think about this.

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/645/5.pdf
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 04:32:09 PM by Elantric »

Offline arkieboy

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2012, 04:44:57 PM »
Nobody wants to carry the weight of a laptop battery


But they'll tote a Les Paul around all evening ...


Just saying ;)


steve
https://www.facebook.com/stephen.john.harris
http://www.agnieszkaswita.com
www.arkmusic.co.uk

Brian Moore and Patrick Eggle controllers
Roland VG99/Axon AX100 MkII
Marshall JMP1
TC Electronic G Major
Marshall EL84/20-20
Marshall 1912 (x2)
Roland FC300/Behringer FCB2020

Offline Spawn-X

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Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 10:04:59 AM »
P'tit lu all...
Just my 2 cents to talk about the Rackvax guy who planned to create a wireless for GK systems.
Can't find the topic, but sure of it.
Sorry for my bad English. I'm just a poor lonesome froguitarist...

So, feel free to correct me if I make a mistake...

Gears: V-Guitar: VG-99+FC-300; GP-10; AX100MKII; Nord Modular G2 Engine.
DAW: Cubase Pro 8.5 + BabyFace + RC-50

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2012, 05:20:37 PM »
I talk to Corey at RackVax all the time. Per my most recent communication he got a new gig at Intel

FWIW - I assisted by designing the main internal CPU PC board for the RackVax

Regarding wireless GK-3 pickups - todays ballpark would still be in the + $700 MSRP range, and of course ANY wireless system WILL add latency and a battery weight and a finite run time  - therefore interest in a wireless GK-3 at those prices remains low.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:46:36 AM by admsustainiac »

Offline jbgm

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2013, 02:10:51 PM »
Guys, even though this is an old thread, I just found something interesting that answers the initial question: Harald Milz has published detailed schematics and a set of instructions to build a wireless device for a 13-pin GK cable.  Available under GNU license at:
http://www.muc.de/~hm/music/Wireless-GK/

Offline GraemeJ

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2013, 02:53:53 PM »
Guys, even though this is an old thread, I just found something interesting that answers the initial question: Harald Milz has published detailed schematics and a set of instructions to build a wireless device for a 13-pin GK cable.  Available under GNU license at:
http://www.muc.de/~hm/music/Wireless-GK/

That document was last updated in 2003 - I think we can reasonably assume the idea went nowhere.

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2013, 02:57:51 PM »
http://www.muc.de/~hm/music/Wireless-GK/

Its from 2001. - Looks like he is stuck in a 12 year R&D Cycle

Electronics is changing every 2 years now - so there are better technologies today.

Remember the Guitar to  MIDI (and the entire 13 pin)  market and is very small - and the profit  vs R&D loss makes this a labor of love.

Nobody is getting rich off guitar to MIDI

But contact him for current  status
http://www.muc.de/~hm/music/Guitars/gibson-lp-artisan-00230976/
last known email
 Harald Milz <hm <at> seneca.muc.de>
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:03:05 PM by Elantric »

Offline jbgm

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2013, 03:53:38 PM »
That document was last updated in 2003 - I think we can reasonably assume the idea went nowhere.
It is true that it seems like it went nowhere. This does not mean that the idea had no merit. It simply means that it had no takers. Harald's posts starts with: "... the basic concept should be all right, and there is nothing in it which makes it physically or economically impossible. I am still looking for serious fellow developers... :-)". As an engineer with basic knowledge of electronics, I think that Harald's design is sound and doable now. As other posts have already mentioned, developing a wireless GK might be economically unfeasible for a large company. As a community project, it might be overambitious... unless we have in this community enough people willing and able to do some serious (pro bono) work in electronics.   

Offline Elantric

Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2013, 04:46:08 PM »

Online CodeSmart

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Re: Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2013, 02:00:55 AM »
Is a 7.1 stereo wireless headphone using a "true" 8 channel fully separate sound channel transmission?
Got more gear than I need...and I like it!