Author Topic: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection  (Read 11559 times)

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Offline Vade

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2016, 09:58:04 PM »
Well, thank you for your kind words etc. which are very much appreciated Autana. I love what you did with that GP-10 loop and the GR-55’s strings. OK, so 20 years probably makes me a glass half empty pessimist and 3 days probably makes you a glass half full optimist. But with two glasses half full all I can say is… Cheers!
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2016, 10:05:44 PM »
Maybe might by mid-2017?  ;D   Your welcome Vade. Cheers!   
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Spider

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2016, 04:06:24 PM »
Autana do you have xtSA with new electronics or old? Could you share your settings for GK input? Something special?

Offline joaobraga

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2016, 05:29:48 PM »

Really great patches and playing.
I love it!

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2016, 06:25:06 AM »
Autana do you have xtSA with new electronics or old? Could you share your settings for GK input? Something special?

Hi Spider,  sorry for late reply, I overlook it unintentionally.

- Autana do you have xtSA with new electronics or old?
- My xtSA have the old electronic 2003 PolyDrive X

- Could you share your settings for GK input?   
Of course.




- Something special?
I use a Primova GKFX21 Subsonic Filter in my GP-10 . Although there has said it is not quite necessary in GP-10, at least not as much as with GR-55, I perceive a improvement in the response of my old electronic Godin XTSA , I use it during all the NyRAC production process.



-String gauge: .010 ~ .046, Cleartone
-Pick: BigStuby 3.00 mm, most for fast soloing (angle attack for slow expresive passages)
- Fingerstyle for chords, classic arpeggios and tremolo, some soloing.
Please read http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17683.msg126185#msg126185
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Spider

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2016, 03:32:00 PM »
Thanks a lot.
I noticed that some patches, like Latin, are (sound) distorted esp. when sound is fading out (think: last milliseconds of working noise gate for example).
First suspect was "too high level on piezzo" or/and new RMC in your xtSA but I tested with GK3 on start and still was the same. After on/off switching blocks in FX chain I discoverd that problem is in EQ.
Mostly in second EQ and very high level settings on it.

Online carlb

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2016, 04:09:13 PM »
Can someone please give me the high-level overview of what steps are needed to download these onto my GP-10? I use a Macbook, I hope that won't be an issue ...

These are superb sounding nylon tones, by the way!

My first attempt at using the GP-10 for nylon was beset by a hardware bug in my guitar. Now gone since I sent my Carvins to iGuitar's workshop for an RMC transplant. (Very impressed with RMC 13-pin electronics, by-the-way.)

Thanks for any and all help.
SH-575 and SH-475 Carvins w/ Roland hex pickups
Boss GP-10 (latest rig), Roland VG-99 (older rig), EHX Key 9 looped-in.
Gemini GX-150 FRFR powered speakers (drivers swapped to Carvin NE8-8 for weight and sound)
MIDX-20 and Morningstar MC6 for foot control, BBE Sonic Stomp after GP-10

Offline Elantric

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2016, 04:30:50 PM »



Boss Tone Studio user interface is common across several Boss products - the most detailed BTS Instructions to learn how to load and save *.tsl (Tone Studio Library)  patches is here:

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/BTS_GP-10_e03_W.pdf

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11880.0
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 04:39:04 PM by Elantric »

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2016, 04:32:18 PM »
Can someone please give me the high-level overview of what steps are needed to download these onto my GP-10? I use a Macbook, I hope that won't be an issue ...

These are superb sounding nylon tones, by the way!

My first attempt at using the GP-10 for nylon was beset by a hardware bug in my guitar. Now gone since I sent my Carvins to iGuitar's workshop for an RMC transplant. (Very impressed with RMC 13-pin electronics, by-the-way.)

Thanks for any and all help.

Thank you, I am glad you like it and hope enjoy NyRAC at fully. 

Download last version for  BOSS TONE STUDIO for GP-10 Ver.1.1.0 for MAC from  here:

http://www.boss.info/support/by_product/gp-10/updates_drivers/7030



Read here for more information:
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11879.0

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17630.0
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2016, 08:01:08 PM »
Thanks a lot.
I noticed that some patches, like Latin, are (sound) distorted esp. when sound is fading out (think: last milliseconds of working noise gate for example).
First suspect was "too high level on piezzo" or/and new RMC in your xtSA but I tested with GK3 on start and still was the same. After on/off switching blocks in FX chain I discoverd that problem is in EQ.
Mostly in second EQ and very high level settings on it.

Thank you Spider by mentioning it.

Before start working NyRAC on the GP-10, I did a preliminary investigation, and use my DAW, there was where initially I created the frequency curves and values, which then were transcribed to GP-10. For this purpose I recorded audio samples of COSM nylon model with all GP-10 effect modules off, just crude "nude" audio via USB to DAW. I noticed the dynamic range of nylon instrument was directly related to sensitivity (SENS) in the GK setting,in a very narrow and involved way. When the GK sensitivity is reduced, for example to 10, and you play softly, some notes lose high frequencies content and turn dark, and at certain threshold very soft attack result in muted notes. Maybe it has to do in some way with the issue of VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar, and here I quote Elantric:

The VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug" does exist, There is a threshold (more like a brick wall) that exists while fingerpicking softly on the upper strings where the natural expected smooth linear lowered output volume is not experienced, instead you will have what appears to be drop outs, no sound,  "dead unresponsive strings"  - its very much like falling off a cliff, or suspect you have an intermittent failure of your hex PU. Only a heavy  picking attack will resurrect the temporarily "dead" Nylon COSM model's upper strings.

Its worth exploring the relationship of the GK PU Noise Suppressor settings  during the VG-99 Nylon COSM guitar "bug".

It might be "fixed" if you turn OFF the VG-99 GK PU Noise Suppressor (See VG-99 Owners manual Page 105)


"NS (Noise Suppressor)
This effect reduces the noise and hum picked up by guitar pickups.
Since it suppresses the noise in synchronization with the envelope of
the guitar sound (the way in which the guitar sound decays over
time), it has very little effect on the guitar sound, and does not harm
the natural character of the sound.
"


In the case of VG-99, GK PU Noise Suppressor settings are mentioned. Roland probably has improved and corrected the Nylon COSM model, but the unpleasant issue still at soft playing is in the GP-10, maybe in a  lesser extent, but there is.
In the other side, with hard playing and higher GK SENS, there is an harsh noise not perceived until HIGH FREQUENCIES EQ is raised.  The EQ only reveals the distortion, does not produce it, when the extreme values ​​of high frequency are used as the way to achieve the rich bright sound of a real acoustic guitar. In the case of NyRAC the phenomena is more notorious in some patches that need more high EQ or brilliance as part of its style nature. like Nylon Latin or NylonRockPop. Also High EQ output level can be a help factor, lower it can reduce clipping distortion.

To achieve a dynamic response performance with nylon model, is necessary to determine the personal way of playing. In my case I use a broad range, I go from something intense or hard to soft suddenly.

When high frequency values in the second EQ is reduced, we will note  the distortion start to be hidden, but some styles lose their authenticity. We can not alter only the second EQ, we also have to compensate the first EQ to maintain the aural image resulting of the interaction of the two EQ, which is mentioned by Bill Rupert.

In the following examples of audio, I record crude nylon in the DAW and there configured the EQ similar way that the GP-10. The recordings are made with different GK sensitivities with two intensities of playing, soft and hard. In the graphs you can see the EQ values used for NyRAC, and how when high frequencies are lowered, less distortion is heard under high GK sensitivity values.

SENS 75__High_EQ_REDUCED_by_15-20_DB

SENS_75

SENS_10

SENS_45-50


SENS_60














For the next revision of NyRAC, I will create some patches to implement the alternative use of EXP / ON with high EQ, in a variable range to suit user preferences.  But is strongly recommend adjust the GK  sensitivity values the more accurate according to personal playing style.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 01:22:19 AM by Autana »
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Spider

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2016, 04:41:06 AM »
I tried on xtSA (old RMC) with SEN settings similar to yours and then set to ca. 20-30. Lower settings helped but it looks like to much boost on Out Level setting in second EQ. Reduction o Hights boost helped too but problem is for me in global EQ. I lowerd output level on both EQ and add more volume using main Vol knob.

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2016, 06:21:51 AM »
Great! I think a balance between SENS, EQ Out level and frequency adjustment is the key. It could recommend an average setting, but I think it would be a little different for each user. In my demo recordings of video and audio, I used the same patches you got, and there is no distortion with GK-3 nor with RMC piezo, but by increasing the EQ level, some clipping appeared. Situations are different.
I would like to know the users NyRAC conditions. There affect RMC versions with different output levels or GK-3 hex's PU string height action, distance to bridge, may be important factors in how a specific patch reacts. Things like what kind of playing technique use, alt. pickng, chicken picking, classical finger style. each produces different output levels and emphasis on different frequencies. With that info I could to compile individual user information into a PDF booklet and help to improve the experience and enjoyment of NyRAC.
Thanks.
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Spider

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2016, 06:51:31 AM »
I'm, talking not about distortion like in el. guitar. It is some part of the nylon guitar sound. Base is like should be "classical guitar" but I hear some distortion in highest register. The same with GK and RMC but not on all patches. Only where you set EQ +19 dB or similar. It is sound like "digital clipping".

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2016, 07:16:01 AM »
I'm, talking not about distortion like in el. guitar. It is some part of the nylon guitar sound. Base is like should be "classical guitar" but I hear some distortion in highest register. The same with GK and RMC but not on all patches. Only where you set EQ +19 dB or similar. It is sound like "digital clipping".

Yes, of course, I think we are talking about the same thing.  It is like there is a "zone" in the COSM Nylon model prone to produce digital clipping when the EQ out level is raised, and just is the zone where I worked, found and figured out the REAL tone concept behind NyRAC. However I dont think the essence of the style will be seriously affected by lowered EQ, and even less if clipping is reduced or eliminated.  In most "Nylon" patches before NyRAC, factory or users from, that zone is not explored, so it was snugly hidden, exempting us of enjoy the "real spirit" underlying nylon model. This is exciting! Roland engineers do not know what they have created, maybe they are just numbers and calculations (most of corny GR-55 factory patches says much of that hehe). In the meantime we will continue educating the creature..
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 04:37:45 PM by Autana »
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Online admsustainiac

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2016, 08:44:05 AM »
We do know that the output level of the RMC Polydrive Board inside Godin xtSA/ LGXA was lowered back in Mid 2011, but did not end up in production Godin's until 2012

The suggested GK Sensitivity Pre 2012 = "0"  - because the pre 2012 RMC Polydrive board was a bit too hot and will "clip (distort) the Roland/Boss GK processor, or lack dynamic range when GK Sensitivity is set too high

Compare to 2012 and newer  RMC Polydrive board with lower output signal - the latest  GK Sensitivity I recommend a GK Sensitivity of "45-55"

So when comparing GK settings , its important to "what year is your Godin?

This is fully detailed in the Godin xtSA thread here
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.msg52671#msg52671
Quote

I understand Richard at RMC has made subtle changes to the internal "Polydrive X" preamp board -

Mine has a recent 2011 version below:


http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.50
Quote
During the Christmas break I finally had some time to play with the GR-55 and my new Godin xTSA RMC pickup guitar.

I'm using these settings below with much success using my 2012 Godin xTSA (RMC) and stock GR-55 (rev 1.50 firmware ) and Boss GP-10

Thanks Jim Williams!



On both my xTSA'a - the COSM Modleling sounds most excellent .

This is AFTER I follow Jim Williams Piezo Setup.

--
In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
NORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   +3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .
(Note: Godin's older than 2012, might work better with Sensitivity set to "0")

"VEL"
Velocity Dynamics :  2
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA"
Nuance Dynamics   :  4
Nuance Trim       :  4

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============

 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:00:44 AM by Elantric »

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2016, 09:56:01 AM »
The suggested GK Sensitivity Pre 2012 = "0"  - because the pre 2012 RMC Polydrive board was a bit too hot and will "clip (distort) the Roland/Boss GK processor, or lack dynamic range when picking is set too high

Compare to 2012 and newer  RMC Polydrive board with lower output signal - the latest  GK Sensitivity I recommend a GK Sensitivity of "45-55"

Absolutely.  RMC PolyDrive year is so important and crucial factor in settings you do. 

Quote
The suggested GK Sensitivity Pre 2012 = "0"  - because the pre 2012 RMC Polydrive board was a bit too hot and will "clip (distort) the Roland/Boss GK processor, or lack dynamic range when GK Sensitivity is set too high

My 2008 xtSA have a pre 2012 "2003" PolyDrive RMC, and I use to set SENS to 05-15 to 25-30 depending of the patch and playing style for the purpose. But with NyRAC when settings under 15, the COSM nylon model present the already commented hysteresis or bug with soft playing, mainly fingerstyle, not so notorious as with VG-99, but there is.

Worth to listen this, recorded with xtSA, SENS: 10  and NyRAC nylon patch, in the first part the sound is dark at soft playing and even some notes are muted. In the second half of demo, I play louder, and sound better overall, without mute notes or darkness.

SENS_10

Here another samples with different SENS


SENS 75__High_EQ_REDUCED_by_15-20_DB

SENS_75

SENS_10

SENS_45-50

SENS_60


http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17683.msg127332#msg127332

« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:18:31 AM by Autana »
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Elantric

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2016, 10:02:33 AM »
As we know getting the GK Sensitivity in the ideal range for YOUR actual instrument is crucial - and this will vary per individual instrument / year / revision / etc.
Quote
My 2008 xtSA have a pre 2012 "2003" PolyDrive RMC, and I use to set SENS to 05-15 to 25-30 depending of the patch and playing style for the purpose.
And in the VG-99 discussions, we mentioned the "trick" of using separate GK Sensitivity ranges - depending on the task ( GTR-MIDI vs Hi Gain Rock Solo vs Triggering Nylon samples

Same paradigm applies to GR-55 and GP-10 as well.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:49:00 AM by Elantric »

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2016, 10:20:15 AM »
Same paradigm applies to GR-55 and GP-10 as well.

Indeed.
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline Spider

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2016, 04:29:48 PM »
Steve, Autana: Good pointed!
Any way problem with nylon patches isn't a problem with old xtSA. It exist with GK too. But know I know what's going on :)

Offline jassy

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2016, 06:31:46 PM »
Hombre Carlos cuanto tiempo sin verte, casi desde los tiempos de mirc.  ;)
Te veo tocando mejor que nunca, que ya es decir.
Muy bueno tu trabajo con los sonidos de nylon, pena que no tengo GP10, hay una versión GR55?

Sorry for the spanish talk.

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2016, 07:02:41 PM »
Hombre Carlos cuanto tiempo sin verte, casi desde los tiempos de mirc.  ;)
Te veo tocando mejor que nunca, que ya es decir.
Muy bueno tu trabajo con los sonidos de nylon, pena que no tengo GP10, hay una versión GR55?

Sorry for the spanish talk.

Gracias!  "tiempos de mIRC" santa madre de Dios! por favor ¿quien eres? veo que ya tienes tiempo aquí. Y acerca de la version de los parches de nylon para GR-55 por favor lee esto aqui mismo en este tópico: http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17683.msg126141#msg126141
¡Un abrazo hermano!

Quote

Carlos man long time no see you, almost since mIRC times ;)
I see you playing better than ever, and that's saying something.
Very good your work with the nylon sounds, shame I do not have GP10, there is a GR55 version?



Thank you!  mIRC times ! Holy Mother of God! :D, please who are you?  I see you have some time here.
About GR-55 nylon version, please read this just here in this same topic:
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17683.msg126141#msg126141
hugs bro!

GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline sbjkd@internode.on.net

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2016, 05:06:28 PM »
Saludos, Carlos.

Los patches son fantástico.

Gracias, amigo.
S

Offline Autana

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Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2016, 05:21:48 PM »
Saludos, Carlos.

Los patches son fantástico.

Gracias, amigo.
S

¡A la orden siempre! :)

Thanks, welcome to VGForum, I hope enjoy this collection and forum experience.

GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Offline sbjkd@internode.on.net

Re: GP-10 - Nylon Real Acoustic Collection
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2016, 04:39:47 AM »
Thanks Carlos.

So far, I think that all of this is great! I'm brand new to it. I just got my GP-10 and haven't even install the pickup yet.  I'm looking forward to seeing what happens once I connect it and start recording.

What are you using to amplify your GP-10?

I really like your classical/nylon stringed sounds. I can't wait to get a good classical tone.

Cheers,
S

Online admsustainiac

« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 01:05:03 PM by Elantric »

 

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