Center Point Stereo Space Station V3 / XL

Started by carlb, October 10, 2008, 08:30:49 PM

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Smash

Quote from:  Headless68 on September 06, 2016, 12:37:18 PM
interesting idea & Im with you that lugging less is a good thing, however Im really happy sound and volume wise running a pair of cube 60's (been using them for the last 7 years), not too heavy, very loud, just set them on 'JC120' and let the modelling do the rest.

That said ......our Bass player just bought a new GK head which is 400watt and weighs about the same as a big mac !  it is sooooooo loud ( through an ashdown 4x10 ) - guess that technology will be heading to guitar amps

Well I don't think I'll be lugging less gear as I've just ordered a Behringer B1200D sub to go with it (just sold my Alto TS112As) To be fair that's only because I use a lot of virtual bass in patches and I DO like a good teeth rattling bass.

I've locked into a "complete" tone that is chorused modeled strat with verb and delay, Mag humbucker pups feeding Zoom CDR70 particle reverb for ambient wash, modeled bass with a dropped an octave and midi'd octaved synth warm pad sound. It sound ludicrously lush and huge - I can lose hours with it.

I'm trying to recreate the particle reverb effect in Tonestack (Bias FX reverbs are too thin and twee) - once I've got that nailed I can happily par down to VG99 and iTrack only using Roland UME for MIDI on the soft synths which works great and build yet another flight case!

Incidentally the Tonestack Lester Rotary Amp sounds bloody amazing through the CPS

Smash

The altos have gone and I now have a nice shiny Denon Axis 12 sub.

Not a name usually associated with PA but the Axis range is equivalent to Mackie DLM in terms of design and quality. It's hard to find reviews online but I did find a couple on German sites and they get excellent ratings. I can confirm that the output of the Axis sub is quite ridiculous - in fact you only have to turn the volume control a few degrees and the bass reinforcement is substantial and physical. I think they have discontinued teh Axis range so you may get some close out bargains - if you;re looking for a PA rig I'd urge you to check these out.

I'm running my mixer into the sub and then the crossovered (high) outs to the CPS.

I'll be honest  - this set up is not really for someone looking to use traditional guitar tones 90% of the time -  but if you used combined bass, guitar and synth patches or heavily processed guitar/ambient stuff it really excels.

My go to patch at the moment is a precision bass on 5 & 6 with the A dropped an octave (so 6 string sounding), chorused/delayed/verb'd Strat, Ambient particle reverb via CDR70 and warm synth pads from SC88 - it's absolutely incredible sounding on this rig. That low A - wow.

I've created a patch in Tonestack that is very close sounding to the particle reverb - close enough for me - but it doesn't look like Tonestack has any patch sharing cloud though.

I'll take the whole thing into local rehearsal space in the next couple of weeks and see what sort of SPL it can create - the sub has added a major volume boost.

Smash

Cranked it home the other day with iPad Sampletank synth pads, Tonestack doing ambient reverbs and VG99 doing 5 string bass and pedal steel. Started playing Comfortably Numb and simply couldn't stop. It sounds frigging amazing!

The wash of sound as you stand back and appreciate the stereo "bloom" as Aspen calls it - it's like VR Gear for your ears! Loving this setup.

imerkat

really itching to get this. My problem is that i also need one for guitar tones.

Smash

I run guitar tones through it - no problem with volume with the sub in tow

Shingles

#30
I just got one of these from Thomann. Took about a week to get to me in the UK.

Haven't had much time with it yet, but my first impression is, as above, that it reminds me of the old, old days of using just a 1x10" combo - in a good way!

...but it's stereo, so ideal for ambient/synth and heavily effected stuff.
Also seems capable of reproducing the GT-Pro and VG99 Matchless sims quite convincingly. Time will tell.




Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Elantric

Saw and heard the new larger Centerpoint XL speaker

Very interesting option for VGuitar DSP modeler users


http://aspenpittmandesigns.com

Elantric

#32


http://aspenandassoc.com/cps-spacestation-xl/

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SpacestnXL




Aspen Pittman Designs Spacestation XL (700watts)
An update of the acclaimed Spacestation V.3 powered speaker, Aspen Pittman Designs' Spacestation XL delivers a 300-degree sound field from single cabinet featuring 700 watts of venue-filling power. Typically, speakers produce an unpredictable stereo image that fluctuates, depending on the listener's position. Conversely, the Spacestation XL creates a stereo sound field that emanates from a stable central point, so your audience will hear the same mix, regardless of where they're sitting. Ideal for amplifying stereo sources such as keyboards or full mixes, the Spacestation XL kicks out enough power for live performances in medium to large-sized venues. Sweetwater has always been impressed by these powered speakers and we're thrilled that the Center Point Stereo Spacestation XL has arrived!
Center Point Stereo (CPS) "magic" provides stereo sound from a single cabinet

By electronically encoding the stereo left and right signals to be mid (L+R) and side (L-R) signals, then decoding them acoustically by means of a front and side dipole-powered speaker array, the Spacestation XL is able to create an expansive, three-dimensional sound field. In fact, the Spacestation XL's sound field is so vast, its "sweet spot" is everywhere — even around corners and in adjacent rooms! CPS technology was actually awarded a utility patent by the US Patent and Trademark Office, meaning that it is truly a unique, innovative, one-of-a-kind feature. This groundbreaking technology is only available from Center Point Stereo!
Width control lets you tailor your sound for the room

Center Point Stereo understands that every room is different. It's not reasonable to expect that an effect that works well in one venue will work equally as well in another. That's why the Spacestation XL features a width control for optimizing the stereo effect to compensate for differences in room acoustics. If you're performing outdoors or in a dead space, you need more width to create a believable three-dimensional sound field. If you're performing in a live or highly-reflective space, you need less width to prevent a washed-out sound. The Spacestation XL also features a subwoofer output in case you need more low-end for very large or bass-deficient venues.
Aspen Pittman Designs' Spacestation XL Features:

Frequency response extends down to 50Hz
Stereo sound from one cabinet provides big sound in a convenient package
Stereo Width control lets you tailor your sound for the venue
3-way 700-watt tri-amp design for power and efficiency
Speaker Contour controls for fine-tuning your sound
Subwoofer output for maximum performance in large or bass-deficient venues
Compact and lightweight for easy transport and setup
Additional Media

Keyboard Amp Buying Guide
Tech Specs

Speaker Size
1 x 12" Eminence coaxial woofer, 1 x 1" titanium mid driver, 2 x 6.5" Eminence side speakers
Total Power
700W Class D
Frequency Range
50Hz-20kHz
Maximum Peak SPL
116dB SPL
Inputs
2 x 1/4" (Hi -10dB), 2 x 1/4" (Lo +4dB)
Outputs
3 x XLR (left, right, sub), 3 x 1/4" (left, right, sub)
Height
29"
Width
17"
Depth
16"
Weight
65 lbs.
Manufacturer Part Number
SXL

thebrushwithin

It's a shame it weighs 65 lbs. That's heavy for an old guitarist.

Elantric

#34


QuoteIt's a shame it weighs 65 lbs. That's heavy for an old guitarist.

Smash

#35
So, gigged the space station v3 last night without the sub - playing as duo the V3 was right on the ragged edge. Had it placed behind me which was a mistake but going from the vol setting on the V3 and level on the V3 (both 2/3rds) I was definitely in clipping territory.Gig was in rowdy pub in long thin room so far from ideal. I was using Variax acoustic and synths from Fishman.

I'm going to book into local rehearsal space and run it up again same settings where I can sit back and hear exactly what it's doing but bottom line, great monitor, practice amp and coffee house amp but hasn't quite got the guts for full live - Steves right, no way it could go up against a drummer. The problem is that the main part of the sound - my acoustic - is mono hence it doesn't get any help from the 100w sides, purely comes out the front 8"

The XL would be tempting apart from weight heavier than KP500s and cost.

I'm reconsidering options for live. Haven't decided whether to out it yet because I love the effect but still need sub for the bass off the FTP

Shingles

Quote from:  Smash on February 04, 2017, 03:12:16 AM
The problem is that the main part of the sound - my acoustic - is mono hence it doesn't get any help from the 100w sides, purely comes out the front 8"


So pan it hard left.
Not kidding - try it. Anything panned hard left comes out of the front and the left side, in phase.
This isn't perfect, but it does give a bigger spread to a mono sound.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Majiken

What I hate about this site is the way it keeps pointing me to gear I don't really need but desire  ::) :P

The V3 could perhaps cover a good 50% of my solo gigs, assuming the low end response is -3 dB. Just guitars banjo & vocals... have been thinking about trying a pair of QSC K8s yoked onto a single stand behind me and angled down, this would be smaller & less expensive. Don't like the 19 kg, but would be okay if it worked for me soundwise.  The big version is just too much weight-wise.

This would replace my RCF Art 710 on a stand, which sounds great but is both mono and has the sweet spot issue in some of the rooms I play in.  Thomann has them in stock-crud......   ???
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Smash

#38
Quote from:  Shingles on February 05, 2017, 09:13:34 AM
So pan it hard left.
Not kidding - try it. Anything panned hard left comes out of the front and the left side, in phase.
This isn't perfect, but it does give a bigger spread to a mono sound.

That shouldn't work - the V3 is basically mid side. Panned hard left should only come out of the sides surely? I will try it however and report back.

Majiken - I think if you're not looking for low end - remember the cabinet size for the 8" main driver is literally half the size of the total cabinet because of the side drivers, so it's really small 15 litres tops? - then it'll be good for you as a solo acoustic artist providing you run some sort of compression otherwise you max out the headroom. I'm running bass samples and it simply can't cope without a sub attached. Don't Thomann have to abide by 14 day online purchase return policy?

If you came to the UK meet in April you could try it!

Shingles

Quote from:  Smash on February 06, 2017, 04:00:00 AM
That shouldn't work - the V3 is basically mid side. Panned hard left should only come out of the sides surely? I will try it however and report back

As with M+S mic matrices, the front sound is L+R, so if there is signal only in L, it comes out of the front.
The side speaker is L-R, so if there is signal in L only, it comes out of the left side in phase with the front, and out of the right side out of phase with the front.
So position it right and you can get a useful boost of volume and spread by panning mono signals hard left, or hard right.
Not a perfect solution, but it can help. Try it.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

kenact

Quote from:  Shingles on February 06, 2017, 09:30:11 AM
As with M+S mic matrices, the front sound is L+R, so if there is signal only in L, it comes out of the front.
The side speaker is L-R, so if there is signal in L only, it comes out of the left side in phase with the front, and out of the right side out of phase with the front.
So position it right and you can get a useful boost of volume and spread by panning mono signals hard left, or hard right.
Not a perfect solution, but it can help. Try it.

I just listened to the Aspen Pittman description again. According to him, what comes out of the front speaker, is only the Left and Right information that is the same. So, if you have something that's set Left only, you shouldn't hear that in the front speaker at all.
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Shingles

#41
Quote from:  kenact on February 08, 2017, 01:40:14 AM
I just listened to the Aspen Pittman description again. According to him, what comes out of the front speaker, is only the Left and Right information that is the same. So, if you have something that's set Left only, you shouldn't hear that in the front speaker at all.

Just try it.

It works the reverse of an MS microphone array.

Front speakers get L+R, which is a normal, every day mono summon of the inputs.
Side speaker(s) get L-R. That's like a mono sum after the R channel is phase reversed. So what comes out of the front of the side speaker is L-R, but what comes out of the back of the side speaker is -(L-R) which is the same as R-L.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Smash

hey Shingles (feel bad using that name lol!) - I'd be really interested in the rig you use with the Space Station and the type of musical ground you're covering - I don't think there's many of us in the UK using one with guitar!

I'm thinking the Denon Axis sub I bought is probably overkill and am wondering about an LD Sub 88A which is more compact and luggable plus more likely to get used as a result. Only PITA I can see is that it'd probably be best using a separate cross over with it to lighten the bottom end load of the Space Station.

I'll try teh left pan tonight - not unpack everything since Friday yet

Elantric

#43
QuoteIt works the reverse of an M+S microphone array.

True - confirmed in my conversation with Aspen Pittman at 2017 Winter NAMM
https://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/ms-stereo-basics
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6065



MS Stereo Basics

27 August 2007
Sound Devices 442 and 302 mixers along with the 7-Series Digital Recorders have the ability to accept, monitor, and decode MS stereo signals. MS (mid-side) stereo is a popular stereo microphone technique because of its good spatial imaging, mono compatibility, surround-sound compatibility, and ability to adjust the stereo field in post production. MS stereo is a two microphone capsule technique using a primary microphone as the mid-signal and a bi-directional microphone for the side-signal. A stereo signal is generated combining these two microphones, with different polar responses, in an electrical matrix. Whether decoded during recording or in post production, the amount of stereo spread can be adjusted, a great benefit of M/S stereo over other stereo microphone techniques. Polar Pattern of Typical M/S Microphones
M = Mid (Middle, Main)

The choice of mid signal microphone is arguably more critical than the selection of side microphone. The mid-signal microphone is often a flat-frequency-response cardioid {ρ = a(1 + cos θ)}, but can be nearly any polar pattern, including hyper-cardioid, super-cardioid, line-gradient (shotgun) or omni-directional. Because of the inherent mono compatibility of MS stereo, when an MS stereo signal is folded to mono, only the Mid microphone signal remains.
S = Side

In very close proximity (coincident) to the mid microphones element, a bi-directional microphone element is placed at a right angle to the Mid microphone. The side microphone signal is added to the mid microphone to construct the stereo image.
M + S = Left Channel M - S = Right Channel

To construct a stereo (left/right) signal the Mid and Side signals are combined in an electrical matrix which sums the following signals:
Mid signal sent to both left and right equally,
Side signal sent to the left channel,
Side signal with polarity reversed sent to right channel.
The on-board MS matrix in the MP-2 and 442 can decode MS stereo for monitoring in headphones or to the outputs. The microphone gain controls adjust the ratio between mid signal and side signal - varying the stereo field. There are several single point MS stereo microphones on the market from several vendors including Audio-Technica, Neumann, Pearl, Shure, Sony. Whether using an MS microphone or a cardioid and a bi-directional mic, MS is a useful stereo recording technique.

Smash

#44
Not sure how it works but I CAN confirm categorically that panning hard left REDUCES the centre speaker to virtually nil (certainly very low level) as it goes to the side speaker. Confirming what Aspen said in his video.

So no volume boost.

I have the v3 Space Station and checked several times - the hard pan stays (90%) to the side speaker.

#mythbusters lol!


OK see post further down..  :)


Majiken

Quote from:  Smash on February 06, 2017, 04:00:00 AM
Majiken - I think if you're not looking for low end - remember the cabinet size for the 8" main driver is literally half the size of the total cabinet because of the side drivers, so it's really small 15 litres tops? - then it'll be good for you as a solo acoustic artist providing you run some sort of compression otherwise you max out the headroom. I'm running bass samples and it simply can't cope without a sub attached. Don't Thomann have to abide by 14 day online purchase return policy?

If you came to the UK meet in April you could try it!
Hey Smash, if I didn't have a gig on April 4 (how often do you get a good Tuesday gig?) I would definitely be there!  Hope you guys have a great night.... I may try to get some gigs in Scotland and maybe England if I take the Dover ferry later on in the year- if that happens, maybe we could arrange another get-together.

It seems like the XL will be covering a lot of things that the V3 is missing, like bass response, balanced ins and outs.... I may try one from Thomann, they have a V3 B-stock on sale right now and in Germany the return policy is 30 days.  I was first unhappy about the V3 not having a speaker stand flange, but realize that's the most ineffective setup- I'd really try to set it on the floor and/or in a corner to maximize bass response.  My primary concern would indeed be the danger of it sounding thin, whereby I perceive limited low end for only acoustic guitar and voice for solo work could actually be to advantage.  A subwoofer would defeat the purpose of small package and simplicity, for that I could stick to my RCF Art 710s or my Roland Bass Cube 100, which has unbelievably good coaxial sound and definitely no lack of bass response, see https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18359.0.

I guess the only thing to do is try it and see if it floats my boat for that specific usage!  A luxury problem.....

Cheers, Kenny
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Smash

Right I did the left pan test again AFTER I checked the inter connect cables between the sub and the Space Station and discovered they were reversed! What a donut!!

Anyway, YES panning hard left does generate output from both main centre and side.

Panning hard right diminished the main centre drastically - or it was an apparent quietening due to phase reversal.

So Shingles was right. Bizarre.

But it does mean an easy way to tweak your patches that are a bit too wet sounding due to the spatial width is to pan them toward the left to reduce the effect rather than messing with reverb settings

Smash

Had an online bout of GAS....just ordered an LD 88A sub woofer to replace the overkill Denon (seriously - you could recreate sense-around with that thing!).

It's light, compact, goes down to 40hz and good power match for the SV3 plus - it was ultra cheap at £110 new delivered! The reviews I've managed to find say it's fast and punchy - very musical which sounds exactly what I want.

Hurricane

.

My Mackie FreePlay does the same thing as far as the stereo imagery from a single
cabinet , the stereo imagery comes out really well from my GR33 through it , I like this technology .

For small rooms it works great . The low Hz's are decent but a sub woofer would trick really out my system
nicely , that's next .

Freeplay pumps 75 watts RMS a channel stereo with a ridicules low THD peaking out at 300 watts with it's tongue
hanging out ;D , and has a single 8" lo HZ center driver that is as I said quite decent over all stand alone . When
placed on it's speaker stand and elevated it  shines stereo imagery nicely . It has two Hi Hz dome tweeters
and are really clean , I like ...

It also subs as a personal monitor too . I use it's pre amp mono out to the P.A . It's rechargeable  battery that
can last 10 hours on a single charge makes it's set up a breeze . For an impromptu sit in affair it's a cake walk .   

When I need a little more power I run a mono 95 watt SS old timey baby Polytone Mini Brute III , and place the
Mackie in the center and the two Polytone cabs ( a single 10"& 8"  per cab) at the right and left - I get really great
stereo imagery in coffee houses .

I'm through hauling tons of gear @ 66 I've been down sizing and it's working well. Big venues with good sound
re enforcement systems are what it's all about for me now a days .

I did  show at PBS Burbank Southern California a few years back ( side man for Chan Romero - Hippy Hippy Shake 1959 )
and all I took was my acoustic steel string and plugged into their P.A. 


Wow !
They of course had the " State Of The Art "  sound re enforcement P. A. , the room had so many over hanging JBL cabs with 15" and horns
above the audience it was mind blowing .

My guitar exploded so beautifully - it was breath taking . Blew harp there too via  their P.A. sans any amp. 

Point to be made is the center point type approach works really well IMHO and my Mackie in a much smaller room gave
me the same chicken skin feeling that big PBS sound studio  P.A. gave that sat 300/400 people  .

To me and best of all is these smaller light weight and technologically superior systems are by far the way to go these days
if your over 50 .

HR

.

Shingles

#49
Quote from:  Smash on February 08, 2017, 07:00:39 AM
hey Shingles (feel bad using that name lol!) - I'd be really interested in the rig you use with the Space Station and the type of musical ground you're covering - I don't think there's many of us in the UK using one with guitar!

I'm thinking the Denon Axis sub I bought is probably overkill and am wondering about an LD Sub 88A which is more compact and luggable plus more likely to get used as a result. Only PITA I can see is that it'd probably be best using a separate cross over with it to lighten the bottom end load of the Space Station.

I'll try teh left pan tonight - not unpack everything since Friday yet

Hey Smash,

Don't worry about the name, it's in honour of my first dog.

I don't play out these days, just in my home studio. Mostly I'm using a Boss GT Pro for guitar sounds (with ADA Ampulator in the loop) and VG99 for synth and weird stuff. I also have a fair amount of experience with Axon AX100 and the old GR300. I have also used the Spacestation for a couple of teenager karaoke parties with no complaints.
For me, it's the best stereo FRFR solution I could find - better than a pair of active PA cabs. I was very close to buying a Denon Axis system when I discovered the Spacestation. For many years single point stereo has seemed the ideal goal for practical guitar amplification. Guitar is fundamentally a mono instrument, but the effects and environment make it stereo. CPS gives the best of mono, stereo and wet/dry/wet rigs. The only thing lacking is panning but that never comes across well in a live situation anyway. But it does lack bass and absolute volume. Sat on the floor close to a corner of my 18" x 19" studio studio room it's fine.

If I needed to play bass sounds in a band context I would definitely need a sub. I am ready to get the Axis or Behringer B1200d as soon as I need it. To my mind a sub is pointless without a proper crossover. The crossover takes the load of the low end off the 8" in the SS and so enables the SS to go louder above 120Hz or so. The result should, in theory, be at least as loud and full range as the SS XL in an easier and more versatile package, for less money. On paper, the Denon sub looks ideal, using the high pass outputs to feed the SS.

Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3