FTP - Add a Tripleplay to Fender GC-1 Strat and keep GK 13 output

Started by Vaultnaemsae, April 29, 2016, 10:51:34 PM

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Vade

@ "Its still confusing. I just gave up and mounted a GK-3 and the FTP pickup side by side. Easy peasy."

Just a heads up for ya. I updated the thread with a guide that I hope is much clearer (post #128) and I relinked some of the more important pics in the thread this morning. I know you're already set but you might take a look just for general interest.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.125
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

I hear ya, Alex. I use three guitars with 13-pin capabilities and opted to do the same as you on the other two. It's just easier that way.

1. Ibanez RG has the two pickups (GK-3 + FTP) permanently mounted.
2. Godin Multiac Jazz has an RMC (internal) + FTP externally mounted.
3. The DeLap only has the internal GK-3 installed and no space to mount a 2nd pickup/FTP in the usual position.

I don't wanna buy another FTP. I would like to use the same FTP unit on the Godin and the DeLap. The different systems create some issue in terms of potentially having to have adjusted gain dependant on the category of 13-pin output in use and also adjusted pickup height for the optimal string to magnet distance on different guitars. I made it happen to some extent on the GC-1 but have been seeking a more elegant/modular solution. Anyway, it is up to me to figure out how to do the DIY mod from the available info to suit my personal needs. Lucky I have an engineer handy cos I'm not a tech guy at all.

I also realize it's perhaps a little pointless in a sense. I did some interesting/telling testing with GP-10 vs FTP vs MG2 later last year and was amazed that MG2 was outperforming the Boss/Roland device -- but still behind the FTP. I was using a MacBook Pro (OS Sierra - latest at the time). The MIDI tracks are taking raw MIDI from their respective devices. The audio in is from the iRig HD2. I didn't measure this with other audio (GP-10, GR-55, Axe-FX II) but recall similar feel/response when using them.

Please see the attached image and feel free to correct me if my data is not kosher - though I suspect I'm onto something since I typically judge these things by feeling more than numerical data and was letting others' data convince me that my ears were tricking me.

Here we have three devices triggering a sawtooth wave in Omnisphere via MIDI (or Audio-to-MIDI conversion for MG2). I'm only using one note here to try and make my point (C - on the 5th string, 3rd fret) but it was a common phenomenon across all notes played that day.

Note the time it takes from ---
1. Striking the string to
2. Transmitting the MIDI (or Audio) to the DAW to
3. Actually performing the audio production of the tone.

MG2, often touted the 3rd place holder in performance tests, seems to me to be marginally faster than the GP-10 which is often said to be so close to the FTP to be almost an insignificant difference. Of course, there are other factors to consider but this is pretty important in and of itself. I suppose the relative immediacy of the audio signal offsets the conversion time.

The FTP performnce is obviosly great and the software is OK but lacks MIDI assignability - bit of a hassle. I quite like the UI of MG2 and like not having to bring out additional hardware (though I'm yet to find a really suitable solution - the iRig HD2 is not really a longterm solution but very portable). Plus, the GP-10 can even be used as the interface and still provide other functions (acoustic sims, alternate tunings, OSC synth) which are great regardless of its uninspiring pitch-to-MIDI performance.

Anyway, the point is that MG2 is really good and doesn't require much additional hardware.

I guess I'm just being greedy wanting something I don't really need and that takes valuable time from doing other important stuff -- like actually making music! :)

All that aside...If this FTP adaptor device ever actually happens I'll be sure to share the methodology.
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
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Vaultnaemsae

Quote from: Vade on January 29, 2018, 08:19:21 PM
@ "Its still confusing. I just gave up and mounted a GK-3 and the FTP pickup side by side. Easy peasy."

Just a heads up for ya. I updated the thread with a guide that I hope is much clearer (post #128) and I relinked some of the more important pics in the thread this morning. I know you're already set but you might take a look just for general interest.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.125

And thanks for that Vade. Much easier to decode with the pics. Your story is invaluable! :)
Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
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Vade

For me, when I started my FTP Strat mod my purpose was to get 13 pin and FTP functions on a guitar without mounting a device like the FTP below the bridge. I had a perfectly workable 13 pin/FTP solution using my Godin xtSA piezo based system with an aftermarket FTP mounted.

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

I think the work you're doing with modding the external FTP to be fed by a GK3 hex pickup is quite interesting and I'm sure there's more than a few folks here who want to see you succeed. That said, I'm a little unsure what your final goal is. I would have thought you were going to strip down the external FTP to the bare bones needed to function and then place it internally in a routed out cavity; but you seem quite content to have the FTP mounted externally. Perhaps you've just designed and built a guitar whose features really are important to you? If you're willing to live with a wart on your guitar then there are other ways to go (like my xtSA) that are much simpler.

In any case, you seem to have an overall plan in mind and here's something that might serve you well. It's been awhile since I looked closely at this thread Elantric linked above but MusicOverGear did some serious work you might want to pay attention to; in case your eyes were glazed over from brain overload while trying to digest the thread. You might also consider searching all of MusicOverGear posts as the work he did is spread over many threads. This from post #53...

"I just put this circuit on perf inside my GP-10, so that my GK guitar is driving both the GP-10 and FTP. The FTP is permanently stuck to my pedalboard. It's working great right now - took about 2 hours, including a trip to the electronics store, where they damn near laughed me out of the building for looking for molex parts with 1.5mm pitch. Instead of waiting for a pre-assembled one to arrive from China - or even slower, using my wits to find one closer LOL - I just used the pads on the bottom of the board that must be meant as test points or something - they are labeled 1-7 for strings and ground.

I wanted to share a problem I ran into. I followed Kastor's schemo from p1 of this thread and the signal was still too hot for my FTP. So I just added an additional 10k resistor between the GK jack and the wiper of the pot and I was able to adjust each string down to range. To adjust I set sensitivity in FTP to 8 for each string and then got the pot as close to perfect as I could. I played for a few minutes and adjusted until the lights looked right and it felt and sounded balanced from string to string.

When I was inside my GP-10 - after I was halfway done and too lazy to turn back and rethink the project - it occurred to me that I could have mounted the FTP internally inside the GP-10 - left switched on and running off mains power - there is tons of empty space in there. IDK what would happen if I broke power off from the GP-10's input and used e.g. a 3v step-down converter - probably noise LOL. Anyway that would be a good project for someone with the chops. I'm going to use my hack job as it is until my shoddy work breaks down; by then I'll have some better ideas ready to go.

Anyway FYI for anyone doing this with a GK guitar - seems like the signal needs a little extra resistance to get it within range."

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.50

Bon Chance brave explorer!
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Vaultnaemsae

QuoteThat said, I'm a little unsure what your final goal is. I would have thought you were going to strip down the external FTP to the bare bones needed to function and then place it internally in a routed out cavity; but you seem quite content to have the FTP mounted externally. Perhaps you've just designed and built a guitar whose features really are important to you? If you're willing to live with a wart on your guitar then there are other ways to go (like my xtSA) that are much simpler.

Simple is good. My goal is to use the FTP as both:
1. a standalone MIDI device on the GK-equipped guitar and
2. as at 1. but with a parallel output to a Roland/Boss/Antares device

I can live with a wart temporarily affixed to a guitar strap if it means not hacking the guitars up. I don't want to modify the DeLap guitar at all though an internal installation would be nice. Even if the FTP were installed in the body cavity somehow (very tidy), there is no obvious way to:
-power on/off,
-charge,
-have any visual feedback on the transmitter's status
-ability to switch modes.


QuoteYou might also consider searching all of MusicOverGear posts as the work he did is spread over many threads.

I'm familiar with MOG's exploits! Great ideas but probably not quite right for my needs as I don't always use the VG/GR/GP/ATG gear when playing. Lately, I use the FTP and a laptop much more frequently and occasionally bring in other devices as needed.

Thanks for your advice - it all helps :)
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Vaultnaemsae

#30
I'm posting in the hope that somebody might chime in and verify the accuracy of this diagram. It's a plan for a small board that will ultimately lead to an internal installation of an FTP in my DeLap guitar -- alongside the already installed GK-3 internal kit. I'm very excited to be making some progress on this with the help of my brother.

Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

banditduck

Hi all, I'm Vaultnaemsae's brother. I've collected all the comments from other posts referenced, to work out exactly what is needed for this setup, i.e. 1 Roland Hex Pickup feeding a Roland GK-3 internal kit AND an FTP unit (internally attached).

The schematic I mocked-up was intended to generate some commentary on its inaccuracy as I expect the variable resistors are not required. :D

Anyway, from what I have gathered, I've made the following assumptions:

  • A Roland Hex pickup has slightly less output amplitude when compared to the FTP hex pickup.
  • This is insignificant as both the Roland and Fishman pre-amp stages operate ok within this signal input range.
  • Attenuation is therefore not required for this proposed setup - Attenuation is only required for already amplified signals for feeding another pre-amp stage (as it's not expecting an amplified signal)
  • Coupling capacitors are required to isolate DC voltages between amp stages as they (amplifier stages) can be powered by different voltage levels and floating ground references.
  • Coupling capacitors also block high frequency signals and therefore the value of the capacitor should be calculated to ensure the guitar's (wanted) frequencies are not filtered. I need some help determining what a suitable generic capacitor value should be, if it is in fact required for this setup.
  • Buffer stages (unity gain operational amplifiers) are required to movie a signal from a high impedance circuit (with inductors!) to a low impedance circuit (output of an amplifier). I don't expect a buffer is required for this setup since both preamps (GK3 & FTP) have buffers on their hex pickup inputs.

I'm not an electrical engineer, and so would appreciate some clarity on the assumptions I've developed. I will then post the final schematic to share and hopefully get validated by the community. I'll be designing and building a prototype PCB to test this. If all works well, I can post all the design files here for others to use/improve. If it works, the next stage will then be working through the issues created by putting the FTP inside the guitar.

Look forward to learning some stuff. Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Banditduck

chrish

Quote from: Vaultnaemsae on February 19, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
I'm posting in the hope that somebody might chime in and verify the accuracy of this diagram. It's a plan for a small board that will ultimately lead to an internal installation of an FTP in my DeLap guitar -- alongside the already installed GK-3 internal kit. I'm very excited to be making some progress on this with the help of my brother.


just curious if you implemented this circuit and whether or not it worked?

admin

Quotehttps://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18036.0;attach=17301;image


Use the Pot Wiper for the attenuator output to feed the Tripleplay PCB PU header 

see this thread for correct way
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.msg179802#msg179802


Vaultnaemsae

Banditduck posted this almost a year ago.

Despite his offer to make accurate consolidated information available (pending verification) and despite the collective knowledge of the forum members, he (we) didn't received a single response indicating the accuracy of his diagram so "we already established all his pots are wired wrong." seems a bit of a strange comment to me.

The required technical info to do this mod is spread over more than one thread and is difficult to follow.

FYI, the project was put on the back burner and I don't know if we'll ever get back to it. Other things became more important and I'm no longer living in the same country as my brother, Banditduck.


Vaultnaemsae's SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/vaultnaemsae

admin

Quote from: Vaultnaemsae on February 01, 2019, 04:26:01 PM
Banditduck posted this almost a year ago.

Despite his offer to make accurate consolidated information available (pending verification) and despite the collective knowledge of the forum members, he (we) didn't received a single response indicating the accuracy of his diagram so "we already established all his pots are wired wrong." seems a bit of a strange comment to me.

The required technical info to do this mod is spread over more than one thread and is difficult to follow.

FYI, the project was put on the back burner and I don't know if we'll ever get back to it. Other things became more important and I'm no longer living in the same country as my brother, Banditduck.

I assume you are seeking the DIY Adapter to use GK-13 guitars  with Tripleplay

That thread is over here:

FTP - DIY adapter to use GK 13 Pin Guitars with Tripleplay
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.msg179802#msg179802

gearhound22

Some of these threads are hard to follow :(

So if you have either a FTP pickup (internal or external style) or GK3 pickup and want to split either to a FTP internal/external & GK3 internal
Do you only need to splice the pickup wires so you have two pin outs?

Or do you need the caps/attenuators etc  ???

admin

depends on the application

We have 2 threads for guitar mounted electronics

All were brand new concepts , and start with cautionary steps ( Look at thread content - but more importantly  - look at the thread DATE

This thread Describes modifying a Fender GC-1 GK 13 guitar with a stock GK magnetic PU  to add a Fishman Tripleplay DSP board lifted from an external FTP hardware unit

One divided Mag PU feeds two separate destinations  - Roland GK and Fishman Tripleplay  run in parallel

A separate thread here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

Describes modifying a guitar with a stock magnetic Fishman Tripleplay PU system (2014 Fender Tripleplay Strat)  - to add an additional GK-KIT GT-3 Internal preamp run in parallel
- using one FTP Mag PU as signal source - (buy a "y" cable from our member Gumbo in NZ )


GuitarBuilder

Quote from: gearhound22 on April 20, 2019, 03:03:17 AM
Some of these threads are hard to follow :(

So if you have either a FTP pickup (internal or external style) or GK3 pickup and want to split either to a FTP internal/external & GK3 internal
Do you only need to splice the pickup wires so you have two pin outs?

Or do you need the caps/attenuators etc  ???

The two hex pickups are slightly different in output, so having a means to match them to the input circuitry is very important.  Having said that, in practice this arrangement causes some issues because you're wiring two passive pickups in parallel and reducing the output impedance with attenuators.  The FTP input circuitry seems to be more sensitive to that than GK3.  Even though the Y-cable works OK, ideally one would do all this using an active attenuator circuit.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

gearhound22

Quote from: admin on April 20, 2019, 06:28:42 AM
depends on the application

We have 2 threads for guitar mounted electronics

All were brand new concepts , and start with cautionary steps ( Look at thread content - but more importantly  - look at the thread DATE

This thread Describes modifying a Fender GC-1 GK 13 guitar with a stock GK magnetic PU  to add a Fishman Tripleplay DSP board lifted from an external FTP hardware unit

One divided Mag PU feeds two separate destinations  - Roland GK and Fishman Tripleplay  run in parallel

A separate thread here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

Describes modifying a guitar with a stock magnetic Fishman Tripleplay PU system (2014 Fender Tripleplay Strat)  - to add an additional GK-KIT GT-3 Internal preamp run in parallel
- using one FTP Mag PU as signal source - (buy a "y" cable from our member Gumbo in NZ )

doh my bad! Should have been this one/./...too many tabs open :D
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15974.0

gumbo

yep...except Gumbo is actually in the NZ's West Island..   :-*

....along with his stock of 1.5 pitch connectors...

;)
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...