Tronical Tune

Started by Elantric, May 08, 2012, 10:19:10 AM

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Elantric

http://www.guitarnoize.com/tronical-tune-robot-guitars-for-everyone/
QuoteYou may not be familiar with the company Tronical but you will know their work because they are responsible for Gibson's Robot Guitar tuning systems. Well judging by this video it appears that Tronical are about to launch some standalone systems that can be retrofit to pretty much any guitar be it a Les Paul or Stratocaster.

The system will feature:
Multistring tuning
12 factory presets
6 user presets
Custom tuning
Reference tuning
Calibration mode
Accuracy mode
Reset mode
(shipping this summer)










http://www.tronical.com/tronical-tune-registration/

tracy

Very cool stuff. I covered this yesterday on my blog also (mainly as an excuse to make references to the Jetsons.) Quote from http://www.tracyevans.name/2012/05/07/meet-your-new-robotic-guitar-overlord-tronical

QuoteWe tune because we care. Guitar tuning has gone through a bit of a renaissance in the last few years. State of the art tuning gear has leaped ahead in both form and function. Modern devices such as TC Electornics Polytune looks like a prop from 2001 A Space Odyssey and acts like an appliance Elroy Jetson might use on his Space Strat. Alternatively, the Jetsons might rely on robotic maid Rosie to tune the family axes, and there are several non-fictional approaches to this type of tuning as well.
I heard someone mention that this company was acquired by Gibson. Is this the same tech that the Gibson robot guitar uses?
@tracyevans    •     http://www.exhibitry.com

Elantric

Ive always wanted a poor mans version of the Transperformance Tuning system (which runs about $2k + installation labor+ donor guitar, as used by Sonny Landreth, Jimmy Page.

FWIW -Transperformance is now known as Axcent Tuning systems: 
http://axcenttuning.com/ 


A google search reveals Tronical GmbH of Germany had their self designed Powertune auto tuning system back in 2005, with versions for Fender Strats, and Gibson Les Pauls. This was before they became the original equipment manufacturer for the Gibson Robot guitars. I understand they struck a deal with Gibson during the 2006 Summer NAMM show in Nashville. 



Here is an old press release of their original Powertune system :
http://bavasmusic.com.au/store/tronical-powertune-p-2293.html

I have been keeping an eye on Tronicals developments now for 7 years, originally intending to acquire their Powertune kit for a custom guitar build, but in 2008 I purchased a Gibson Dark Fire with Robot Tuning technology-one of the first off the production line, and it had problems.

During the course of debugging my Dark Fire, I befriended the Tronical team, and was hired to become a US consultant for them. See attached for a report of my adventures at Gibson during May 2009.

Tronical GmbH remains a separate company from Gibson 


tracy

Wow! Awesome report on the Gibson plant and your experience there. Thanks for sharing this.
@tracyevans    •     http://www.exhibitry.com

oddguitar

Any updates on the Tronical Tune?.....it's been a weird year for guitar technology fans.  At NAMM/Musikmesse the following exciting new developments were announced and shown: Tronical Tune, two Epiphone Robot acoustic guitars, Fishman Triple Play, Peavey AT-200 and Parker AutoTune MaxxFly.

Despite lots of hype, to date none of them has been made available for sale.  It is a longstanding industry joke that NAMM stands for Not Available Till Mid May, but this is getting ridiculous.  It's almost time for the next NAMM show in January, and still no product.  It's starting to smack of vapor ware....

Even more alarming is the fact that the few online stores who had listed the Epiphone Robot acoustics, now show them as "no longer available", which does not bode well.  Usually this sort of thing means that the product has either been discontinued or will not be released.

It's especially frustrating to those of us who have been waiting for these products to be released so we can try them and decide whether they are better offerings than the current crop of Roland VG/GR & Line6 JTV Variax products.

As it stands now, if you are interested in alternate tunings (both real & modeled), guitar modeling and/or synth sounds, Roland and Line6 are the only game in town.

I hope to be proven wrong...

P.S. I posted this over at FGN as well, in the hope of reaching as many high tech guitar fans as possible.

-oddguitar



Kevin M

Just remember....the next best thing is perpetually just around the corner. :-)

mbenigni

QuoteTronical Tune, two Epiphone Robot acoustic guitars, Fishman Triple Play, Peavey AT-200 and Parker AutoTune MaxxFly

I personally think these are all exciting products, but if it were my job to sell them...   :-\

The only one that is plainly commercially viable is the Triple Play; I believe there's a market for it and - R&D aside - some obvious margin over manufacturing costs.

The Tronical and Robot stuff... early adopters of mechanical self-tuning guitars largely reported being burned by the technology, and therefore a lot of people (myself included) will give pause.  And realistically, how many people play in multiple tunings in the first place?

The Antares guitars... it's funny:  the Parker is too expensive to sell to anyone, and the Peavey is too cheap to make any money on!  :) (Someone else's problem of course.  If they deliver on that $500 promise, I'll probably buy one.)

oddguitar

Quote from:  mbenigni on October 11, 2012, 10:50:44 AM
I personally think these are all exciting products, but if it were my job to sell them...   :-\

The only one that is plainly commercially viable is the Triple Play; I believe there's a market for it and - R&D aside - some obvious margin over manufacturing costs.

The Tronical and Robot stuff... early adopters of mechanical self-tuning guitars largely reported being burned by the technology, and therefore a lot of people (myself included) will give pause.  And realistically, how many people play in multiple tunings in the first place?

The Antares guitars... it's funny:  the Parker is too expensive to sell to anyone, and the Peavey is too cheap to make any money on!  :) (Someone else's problem of course.  If they deliver on that $500 promise, I'll probably buy one.)

The innovative side of the guitar market has always been difficult to make money with, but I think there is a market for a self-tuning guitar/hardware since modeled alternate tunings don't change the feel of the strings and don't offer the same feedback response as actually detuned strings.  Plus, not everyone wants a self-tuning guitar for alternate tunings.  I'm personally more interested in dropping standard and drop-D tuning into lower tunings than alternate tunings.

I can understand your disappointment with Tronical given what happened, but I'm firmly convinced that the reason there were issues is Gibson's handling of it.  That have an absolutely pathetic track record when it comes to any business they've acquired (Steinberger, Opcode, Kramer, Tobias, Slingerland, Baldwin, Chickering, Oberheim, Trace Elliot, Wurlitzer & Valley Arts come to mind), so I'm sure many of the problems with the Robot Series stems from their ineptitude.  I knew of Tronical before Gibson got involved and at the time they were going to offer models for both Gibson and Fender-style guitars.  Then Gibson stepped in, and all of a sudden it went from a cool retrofit available for different style guitars, to something you can only buy on the Robot.  I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Gibson had stayed out of it.  If Tronical can get the Tronical Tune to market at a reasonable price & it works as advertised, I think it is feasable.

I think the Peavey AutoTune guitar has lots of potential due to the price-point & features.  The guitar is mediocre, but I'm sure it would be fine after a tech completely set it up.

Of the bunch, the Parker is going to be very difficult to sell because of the price.

Of course, all of this is moot it they don't get released....

-oddguitar

Elantric

#8
Oddguitar - that just about sums up the situation - I had an inside vantage point for a while in mid 2009 - but no longer.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=23

oddguitar

Looks like there is finally an update on the Tronical front...

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1796.30

http://www.Gibson.com/Min-ETune

http://www.Gibson.com/Min-ETuneGuitars

It looks like the retrofit (which is what I'm interested in) won't be available till at least Q2 of 2013 :(


Elantric

#10
Updates from Tronical on the Tronical Tune

Still 18 weeks away from a ship date (thats April 2013)

http://www.tronical.com/

But looks like several style and Fender types too

Elantric


utensil

Not sure if they've started shipping but Tronical is taking orders via website for the Tronical Tune and says will ship 3 weeks after payment. Anyone have one yet?

utensil

Just thought I'd update on this.

I finally got around to installing my tronical type A on a les paul standard, in short it works very well and is easy to install. The manual has a section on calibration but I've found so far it's working really well straight out the box so I've not done any calibration.

The only negative is the robo tuners are quite noisy, but I think this would go unnoticed in any live setting. The other negative is the turn ratio when turning the tuners manually as a large turn of the tuner results in a very small movement of the head, so if the batteries dead it's only practical to correct the current tuning as a drastically different tuning would be a bit of a pain to set manually. So far though I've only recharged the battery once and I've been using it for the past week with around 2-3 re-tunes per session. Also I don't see anyway to update firmware.

I would definitely recommend this as a way to get alternate tunings with the Fishman triple play.

oddguitar

Quote from:  utensil on May 15, 2013, 02:53:13 AM
Just thought I'd update on this.

I finally got around to installing my tronical type A on a les paul standard, in short it works very well and is easy to install. The manual has a section on calibration but I've found so far it's working really well straight out the box so I've not done any calibration.

The only negative is the robo tuners are quite noisy, but I think this would go unnoticed in any live setting. The other negative is the turn ratio when turning the tuners manually as a large turn of the tuner results in a very small movement of the head, so if the batteries dead it's only practical to correct the current tuning as a drastically different tuning would be a bit of a pain to set manually. So far though I've only recharged the battery once and I've been using it for the past week with around 2-3 re-tunes per session. Also I don't see anyway to update firmware.

I would definitely recommend this as a way to get alternate tunings with the Fishman triple play.

I'm about to order a Tronical Tune & am considering installing it on a GC-1 or other guitar with the FTP on it.  How long did it take to receive your Tronical Tune from the time you ordered it?

-oddguitar

Elantric

#15
Carefully review the Tronical Tune Headstock Template Chart here:
http://www.tronical.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TronicalTune_PCB_Template.pdf

I trust the dimensions on Tronical Tune Headstock Template Chart
http://www.tronical.com/uploads/TronicalTune_PCB_Template.pdf
But I caution that I do not trust the provided guitar types listed by Tronical are actually supported by the Tronical "Type C" headstock PCB.

Case in point is the Fender Strat Template. The Tronical Tune fits USA Strats  - but i know MIM strats have a different "tighter" tuner spacing compared to a US Strat. (EDIT: this requires the Tronical Tune "C-1" style )
QuoteI'm about to order a Tronical Tune & am considering installing it on a GC-1 or other guitar with the FTP on it. 
Report back if the Tronical Tune actually fits your Roland GC-1


Tronical Tune Strat Template

 



shawnb

How does it work?   Tension?    I'm really curious....
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#17
QuoteHow does it work?   Tension?    I'm really curious....

Ive had one since last summer (beta tester)

It works rather well, given that it uses a radically simple installation by replacing your existing Tuners only (no need for custom bridges or tailpieces)
The Tronical Tune System has an internal measurement transducer with a TDM (Time Domain Multiplexer) and a focused EQ Window comparator that detects the current string pitch one at a time for all 6 strings, (Rather similar to the method used by headstock clamp on LCD digital Tuners) and compares that to a programmed look up table for correct desired pitches, and then applies a closed loop servo PID robotic controlled motor in the custom robotic tuners to adjust the strings pitch.

 
QuoteAlso I don't see anyway to update firmware.

Firmware is upgradable  - but this requires the firmware upgrade dongle that replaces the Li-Ion Battery during firmware updates)

Edit Summer 2014: Tronical Tune / Gibson Min-Etune both ship with stable firmware now

See attached for the Tronical Update Procedure doc.

 

shawnb

#18
So they're measuring the pitch of the portion of string from the tuner to the nut, which is NOT the pitch of the playable area.   

With no special nut?   I would think that any non-standard nut would mess that up.   Or any non-standard head, or for that matter, any bridge that significantly changes the length of the string. 

Tough challenge, but clearly possible for stock guitars.  I imagine even custom heads could be supported with a configuration utility. 

Price doesn't seem THAT unreasonable either, given you'd never need to tune that puppy again... 

If there was a bright side to my Darkfire experience, it was the excellent Tronical support.  I'd trust those guys to turn issues around in a pinch. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#19
QuoteSo they're measuring the pitch of the portion of string from the tuner to the nut, which is NOT the pitch of the playable area.   

No - they measure the actual full length of the string

Same as one of these work


Just like the above Snark Tuner, The Tronical Tune has a headstock mounted measurement transducer, capable of measuring the frequency of your strings.

(Hear for yourself,  have a friend play your guitar while you rest your own head against the guitar's headstock) 

The Tronical Tune's internal measurement transducer feeds an ARM Cortex M9 pSOC "System on Chip" IC with built in A/D convertor and then applies a  TDM (Time Domain Multiplexer) with a syncronized moving focused brickwall EQ filter that detects the current string pitch for all 6 strings,
(similar to how this product works)




Then the Tronical Tune system compares the current string pitch to a programmed look up table for correct desired pitches, and then applies a closed loop servo PID robotic controlled motor in the custom robotic tuners to adjust the strings pitch.

shawnb

Ahhhhh.....   

If I follow you, they are measuring the headstock vibration?   And deducing which string provided which pitch?   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

QuoteIf I follow you, they are measuring the headstock vibration?   And deducing which string provided which pitch?   

Correct! You got it!

Elantric

QuoteIf there was a bright side to my Darkfire experience, it was the excellent Tronical support.  I'd trust those guys to turn issues around in a pinch. 

Tronical is an excellent company, in the past shackled by the poor implementation  / installation of their products by Gibson production line.

I just advise that anyone interested in a Tronical Tune MUST consult Tronical Tune Headstock Template Chart here - before ordering!
http://www.tronical.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TronicalTune_PCB_Template.pdf

mbenigni

QuoteTDM (Time Domain Multiplexer) with a syncronized moving focused brickwall EQ filter

I've never understood how these monophonic signal-to-multiple pitch algorithms work, but that is one cool solution!

utensil

Yes it works very well. I've not spent a moment calibrating and the accuracy is already extremely good. I think if I spent some time it would speed up tunings but its quite fast now. In multi string mode (where all strings are strummed and it tries to tune all and any it misses you need to restrum)  it takes about 5-10 seconds. It installs very easily it just fits into the old tuner holes. I would definitely suggest double checking with the templates.

I never received an update adapter actually it wasn't part of the box, I also can't see any firmware downloads on their site.

I ordered around 3 weeks ago for $349 and it shipped after 3 days but about 10 days after I ordered they dropped to the current price to $299. I would have appreciated a heads up on this or some kind of credit as I think it's terrible to penalize someone for buying a bit earlier than the rest, that's something I've always liked about Apple, if you buy and they reduce the price shortly after they refund the difference.

Besides the above, I'm really quite pleased with it. I would say it's not a beta product for me as it works reliably without any tweaking, my only concern is the durability of the tuners over more than say 4 years. I don't mind trying it since the price isn't too harsh for what it does and the guitar can be restored easily with the original tuners.