...if an empire it is... ;)
I note our friend Bill R.'s latest video about the EHX C9 organ pedal. Man, that thing sounds pretty good! Now I know that Bill shows off the strengths of these products by avoiding showcasing product weaknesses and flaws, as he rightfully should. BTW, it works Bill- you've sold me so many little gadgets that there should be a bust of you, me, or both of us at EHX headquarters by now!
We also know that when Bill is laid to rest 100 years or so in the future that a VG-99 will be clutched in his boney little fingers, impossible to pry out.
Still, my point is that Roland is not exactly leapfrogging non-hex competitors such as Electro-Harmonix with their hex developments. I DO like having great guitars such as the GP-10 produces, and yes, alt tunings etc. are still a VG specialty. And I will even grant the amazing sounds the VG-99 produces as proof of what hex guitar can do... if somebody cares.
But, two sounds that I insist on, organ and string/synth pads, are now being done PRETTY WELL by non-hex products. I had to have a hex system before to cop those sounds. Faster processors, computers, new sound-shaping tools are nipping at the heels of hex-based processing of guitar strings.
Perhaps it's only a matter of time...
( Roland sales staff asks: What VG Empire? )
IMHO - its not the little boxes -
What is eroding the "13 pin GK/VG/GR/GP dimly lit corner of the world" are these:
Laptop / Tablet Computers
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.appsafari.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F02%2Fomguitaradvancedguitarsynth.jpg&hash=bf894887e55c95024edcc8a399b26a2368a08772)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-tlyLx7ORe3E%2FUAEuqgAqAZI%2FAAAAAAAAAu4%2FNaXTAonGm4g%2Fs1600%2FScreen%2BShot%2B2012-07-06%2Bat%2B8.26.19%2BPM.png&hash=bbc6ddc31c73453fd22b549537ce173e10310f76)
Well, speaking for myself, little boxes. as good as they might sound, have a big problem. It takes an awful lot of them to equal all the virtual little boxes found in something like a VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, etc. They are missing a global preset system that ties them all together to let you change their settings in a single stomp. They don't have a nifty assigns system to let you modulate the controls of 3 of the boxes at once with one expression pedal. For me, lots of little boxes = one big headache at performance time.
Tablet apps, at least right now, have similar problems, since they are forced to operate in their own sandboxes, but that's changing. PC/Mac apps are better but are still a headache to set up and maintain in such a way that they work harmoniously together.
I say the state of the empire is intact. But the King should pay attention and heed the warnings. :)
SuperNiCd raises all of the important points regarding flexibility, connectivity, interoperability...
But setting all of those things aside, the only thing that continues to attract me to hex guitar setups is alternate tuning, and this is more of a conceptual interest than a practical one. I do 99% of my playing in the physical tuning of my guitar anyway. Meanwhile, specialized boxes like the EHX B9 play better than MIDI triggering or the more recent OSC synths from Roland (IMO). It's easier for me to find a timbre that I like in an iOS app than in the random, aging piles of good, bad and ugly that Roland usually bundles with their h/w products. And here is the most surprising thing of all: for all of the hex-based MIDI guitar h/w I've owned, from MIDIAxe to GR55 (and many others), none of it has ever tracked as fast or as reliably as JamOrigin on iOS does. JamOrigin has its limitations of course - no differentiation between strings, no pitch bend - but it is seriously fast and far less prone to glitching on harmonic frequencies that have nothing to do with the range of a guitar's fretboard.
Honestly, if I hadn't invested so much time making the GR55 work exactly the way I wanted it to work, I probably wouldn't own a GK guitar right now. (And, as these things always go, I rarely turn on my GR55 anymore. That rig is a trophy and an albatross.)
In a broad sense, I'm with Elantric.
I think all of this should go 'soft' in the mid-term. The OSs are going to get stable enough. IOS is simple enough. It's only going to get better.
At that point, your pedals are just controllers, MIDI converters & fanout boxes.
For years here, my posts were "I'll never use a PC live", but since building a rig around my FTP, now I think I'm stuck there. I just have so much flexibility with a PC rig.
What further entrenched me was Usine Hollyhock - an odd mix of dev platform & VST host - I feel like whatever I don't have, I can fairly easily write:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.0)
So... I don't want a VG100, but I'd ABSOLUTELY LOVE a "soft" VG99...
Shawn
Not so much little boxes but rather competing products in general. I have pretty much foregone Roland modeling and pitch to midi for products that cover the same bases. I may get a gp10, but need to really try it out side by side against my JTV first.
Im not sure if Roland does come out with a vg100, I would be getting one. They would really have to improve their guitar modeling and significantly improve their pitch to midi (ie better than FTP) to get me to bite. Short of them licensing from fishman (what incentive would fishman have in this case?), I dont see this occuring. When was the last time the tracking in a Roland converter significantly improved?
The technology available now is pretty good and i'm pretty happy with my current setup. This is weird, as for the longest time I was always 'in search of' improvements, and probably wasted way too much time 'tweaking'. Sansamp GT2 to Behringer v-amp to Zoom g9 to Pod Xt, to Pod x3 to Pod HD. Gr30 to Gr33 to Yamaha g10 to Gr55 to YRG gen 2 to Fishman Tripleplay.
Regarding recording, a funny thing is that i'm finding that one of the easier ways to do pitch to midi is simply drag audio tracks into midi tracks in sonar x3, as they have integrated Melodyne into the engine with ARA. It works quite well. You can even sing parts in and convert them.
Software instruments have really come into their own. I used to covet the flagship keyboards from Roland and Yamaha, but now it seems that the best is found in ala carte software instruments.
Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now. I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.
For me the 13pin VG empire is still solid but the enemy army of pedals is approaching.
To blend all pedals together without a PC is possible with things like this :
http://www.joyoaudio.com/en/product/show_185.html (http://www.joyoaudio.com/en/product/show_185.html)
So the "one size fits all wonder box" might not be needed anymore.
What is still important for me is the form factor, weight and complexity of what I have to operate.
Lean is better. Less is more. I think Roland GP10 it's a good experiment to bring 13pin to the masses.
Price is not as high as VG99 and I see many enthusiastic people here and by judging from the replenishment times in the stores I know
Roland has under-produced the GP10GK version. The lack of a FX block separated from Compressor is what prevents me from buying one at the moment. I feel unsure.
VG world is a great world but many others are doing well without a 13 Pin pickup... industry standard, ease of use.. that's what matters the most. People love a 12 Euro Jack cable.. if broken, it's replaced. You cannot do the same with a cable that cost 4 times as such!
We'll see..
Best
Pasha
QuoteHere is part of the VG-99, duplicated as Floor stomp boxes
Ha! Love it. The choreography is inherent in the patch change. :)
QuoteThe choreography is inherent in the patch change
Or with careful aim at the pedal , mount this to your guitar and you are good for 40 patch changes
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snapagogo.com%2Fuploads%2Fsource%2F3382014%2F1417800195_724663241_Nerf_Disc.PNG&hash=1d78c1a5698f048124f1d3fa749cc3a7bf10db67)
Bizzare Controllers
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=347.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=347.0)
Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 07:45:22 AM
Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now. I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.
Still using my GR55 every week for gigs.
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!
QuoteOr with careful aim at the pedal , mount this to your guitar and you are good for 40 patch changes
Well, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)
Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)
Best
Pasha
Quote from: Elantric
Here is part of the VG-99, duplicated as Floor stomp boxes
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tdpri.com%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Fstomp-box%2F108976d1326438718-show-us-your-pedal-board-pedalboard-jpg&hash=11d9490bcca46f8c19d3f39b4b68dcb921676d0d)
Elantric,
This is great! Can we have the list of pedals?
Did it ever worked? It's crazy! :-)
Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 10:46:30 AM
Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)
I share your doubt to some extent. But then again, I couldn't believe what Melodyne with DNA could do until I saw it for myself. Granted, it's not real time yet, but it is pretty fast, and surprisingly accurate!
QuoteAlthough I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
It depends on your objectives. You have to remember that a) most guitarist's objectives are pretty straightforward, and b) the direction of this technology is also driven by practical and commercial concerns. The hex solution may perform better in a perfect world, but if you can sell the mono solution to 1000x as many players, improve standardization, encourage competition, and all that comes with that, determining which is really preferable is less obvious.
Yes, there will always and forever be more information in 6 signals than in 1, and this means that, with any given amount of computing power, a hex pickup holds more potential. It's also true that there are certain types of information that will never be derived from a mono signal once it's been summed from 6 strings, e.g. which string did a given harmonic come from? There's no "tagging" to indicate something like that, so applications that require variances from string to string (alt. tunings, instrument modeling, multi-instrument arrangements) will always benefit from independent pickups.
But, focusing on specific objectives - mainly pitch to MIDI or pitch to tuned oscillation - and acknowledging the law of diminishing returns, working with a mono source is actually practical right now. I've been using it with varying degrees of success for nearly 10 years, and I'm now at the point where I think I prefer it over a GK cable and GR55 PCM or MIDI. And my cables are cheap and plentiful. :)
QuoteThe OSs are going to get stable enough. IOS is simple enough. It's only going to get better.
It's easy to imagine iOS eventually getting bloated like any other general-purpose OS has in the past, where incremental improvements in hardware are outpaced by overzealous software developers until the system as a whole is unusable. (Hello Windows.) But what's beginning to interest me in the mobile scene is the way h/w prices are plummeting, to the point where it's practical to own one or more fully programmable devices just for music apps (or specific subcategories of music apps), jailbreak, and put heads together with a collective of like-minded musicians to maintain or create OSes optimized for each purpose. In a sense, you arrive back at the "little box" modularity, but with each of them
fully programmable, and affordable. It's that "looks like full circle; actually a spiral" thing.
Time will tell whether any of that will even be necessary, or whether iOS and Android will serve us better and better right out of the box.
Well said, Marc.
If we do get a VG-100, my hope is that it's built with the best hardware available today (more processor, memory, etc. than it needs, full suite of I/O ports, etc.) And while Roland could make some money off of the initial purchase, I think the real money could be in software sales. From everything I've seen, this is what the 21st century model for fiscal success looks like. Promote customer loyalty and prevent buyer remorse by giving out some software freebies from time to time, and charge people for big new features, a la carte or in bundles, delivered electronically.
I think they could succeed here because music software on a more generic consumer platform is always going to be susceptible to problems that have little to do with music technology, but rather market forces. iOS, Windows, Android, OS/X all have these problems today. Should I upgrade my iPad or Mac to the latest OS? It's actually a very difficult question to answer. There are some new products I can't get without doing that, and some products I've already purchased that may no longer work if I do.
Now whether Roland, which seems to be traditionally entrenched in a hardware sales mindset will ever convert to this model... I have real doubts about that. And that's all predicated on the notion that they still want to innovate and be a market leader. I guess we'll see.
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!
I smell an NDA...
QuoteI smell an NDA...
I have signed a few of those "gag orders" myself ;)
QuoteWell, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/MyAim_isTrue.jpg/220px-MyAim_isTrue.jpg)
I think Bill is right about global effects, such as a global pitch shift, making it sound like an organ, electric piano, or even a sax with a superimposed wavetable.
(Hey Bill, EHX should make a pedal called Trilogy: Organ, Strings/Pad and electric piano, you can fake a Wurli with a bitcrusher and some other tricks now, or Quartet if you can throw in a synth, we can all get our Rick Wakeman capes out of storage, thank yew, thank yew vera' much)
Here's what's going to be REALLY HARD for a long time on guitar: Alternate tunings. Think about how much processor it would take to know that an inversion up the neck of the guitar is tuned outside of standard tuning- which strings are playing what. Even if you select a drop D for example to start with (which might be the simplest to program), there are all kinds of places to make a mistake even if the pitch shifts are glitch free. That kind of processing power is still pretty far away unless the fretboard is mapped or something.
Quote from: mbenigni on December 05, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
It depends on your objectives. You have to remember that a) most guitarist's objectives are pretty straightforward, and b) the direction of this technology is also driven by practical and commercial concerns. The hex solution may perform better in a perfect world, but if you can sell the mono solution to 1000x as many players, improve standardization, encourage competition, and all that comes with that, determining which is really preferable is less obvious.
Yes, there will always and forever be more information in 6 signals than in 1, and this means that, with any given amount of computing power, a hex pickup holds more potential. It's also true that there are certain types of information that will never be derived from a mono signal once it's been summed from 6 strings, e.g. which string did a given harmonic come from? There's no "tagging" to indicate something like that, so applications that require variances from string to string (alt. tunings, instrument modeling, multi-instrument arrangements) will always benefit from independent pickups.
But, focusing on specific objectives - mainly pitch to MIDI or pitch to tuned oscillation - and acknowledging the law of diminishing returns, working with a mono source is actually practical right now. I've been using it with varying degrees of success for nearly 10 years, and I'm now at the point where I think I prefer it over a GK cable and GR55 PCM or MIDI. And my cables are cheap and plentiful. :)
I got your point. Easily agree. When looking for VG99 I did not know anything about GK pickups. I tried some EHX pedals, FX on my DAW but in the end I wanted to sound like a pad because I am less good on keyboards than I am on guitar. Then I discovered this forum, Bill Ruppert unforgettable music and videos. Since then my search changed target. VG99 was the only one. The sum of all EHX pedals was more than VG99 so I eventually got one. Happy days since then. For all the guitarist I know, meet I am the heretic. At the beginning they think it's all about MIDI and with a grin they accept it, believing the VG99 is a sort of overgrown GR-20.. but when they realize or are told about what VG99 really is.. they look at me as if I'm weird. So yes the commercial push might be lost in the future. That's why we have to take care of our expensive cables and toys! ;)
Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 10:33:59 AM
Well, I am always looking for a new 'schtick' to entertain the audience, but I fear my aim would not be true enough. :)
And imagine the horror of an accidental misfire into the audience.......
Quote from: Rhcole on December 05, 2014, 03:11:26 PM
I think Bill is right about global effects, such as a global pitch shift, making it sound like an organ, electric piano, or even a sax with a superimposed wavetable.
(Hey Bill, EHX should make a pedal called Trilogy: Organ, Strings/Pad and electric piano, you can fake a Wurli with a bitcrusher and some other tricks now, or Quartet if you can throw in a synth, we can all get our Rick Wakeman capes out of storage, thank yew, thank yew vera' much)
Here's what's going to be REALLY HARD for a long time on guitar: Alternate tunings. Think about how much processor it would take to know that an inversion up the neck of the guitar is tuned outside of standard tuning- which strings are playing what. Even if you select a drop D for example to start with (which might be the simplest to program), there are all kinds of places to make a mistake even if the pitch shifts are glitch free. That kind of processing power is still pretty far away unless the fretboard is mapped or something.
This ^
Jumping on the coat tails of Melodyne and pulling information from a single polyphonic source is an amazing feet and opens the door to translating those grouped pitches into grouped pitches of another timbre - organ, sax, synth pad etc.
But it
doesn't allow effective splitting. There is no way ever that the box can know which string played which note, it can only ever interpret the pitches and translate to a different sound. It's only half the picture. Massive market of course for players who want something to just work but not want or need the depth the hex option brings - there will always be players who want total control but I guess they (we) are in the minority.
Really quite surprised at you Bill being ready to write off hex pickups completely on this basis (well perhaps not considering your employer! :p) - the hex pup is still far more flexible and as someone who's known for being one of the most outside the box VG programmers (with the exception of Mr Keller) I'm surprised you can't see the potential of the union of this accurate pitch extraction technology used in conjunction with hex. Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good! ;)
?
What are you talking about?
I am not ready to write off the hex pick up.
I use it all the time and love it.
What I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.
I dont know when that will be, BUT I HAVE seen things that show this will come to pass.
The world is not flat.
Quote from: Smash on April 14, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
This ^
Jumping on the coat tails of Melodyne and pulling information from a single polyphonic source is an amazing feet and opens the door to translating those grouped pitches into grouped pitches of another timbre - organ, sax, synth pad etc.
But it doesn't allow effective splitting. There is no way ever that the box can know which string played which note, it can only ever interpret the pitches and translate to a different sound. It's only half the picture. Massive market of course for players who want something to just work but not want or need the depth the hex option brings - there will always be players who want total control but I guess they (we) are in the minority.
Really quite surprised at you Bill being ready to write off hex pickups completely on this basis (well perhaps not considering your employer! :p) - the hex pup is still far more flexible and as someone who's known for being one of the most outside the box VG programmers (with the exception of Mr Keller) I'm surprised you can't see the potential of the union of this accurate pitch extraction technology used in conjunction with hex. Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good! ;)
QuoteWhat I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.
In 24 hours we will know if the future arrives sooner than expected
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14460.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14460.0)
It's cold today, I think Il'l light up a unhealthy fire with all my 13-pin guitars, Roland V-gear, GKMX dev. stuff and the hundreds of GK-cables I just got delivered. The blue box revolution is here! Times are a changing. Hallelujah!!!
CodeSmart
Your GKPX-14 made a little cameo in the up coming EHX video:-)
B
Quote from: CodeSmart on April 14, 2015, 12:19:02 PM
It's cold today, I think Il'l light up a unhealthy fire with all my 13-pin guitars, Roland V-gear, GKMX dev. stuff and the hundreds of GK-cables I just got delivered. The blue box revolution is here! Times are a changing. Hallelujah!!!
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 14, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
Your GKPX-14 made a little cameo in the up coming EHX video:-)
Nice Bill, thanks ;D
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 14, 2015, 10:32:51 AM
?
What are you talking about?
I am not ready to write off the hex pick up.
I use it all the time and love it.
What I said was in the FUTURE when processing speeds up and gets better, boxes will be there that produce very usable/musical polyphonic pitch extraction from a mono source.
I dont know when that will be, BUT I HAVE seen things that show this will come to pass.
The world is not flat.
not quite what you said...
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!
"hex pup will vanish in time" - I just made a case against that point of view.
Clearly you weren't talking about the immediate future and, as I was responding in context, neither was I.
I am just surprised that you think that pitch translation will wipe out hex completely when (IMHO) it's only part of the toy box - a large part admittedly but still only a part nevertheless.
It's just a point of view man, healthy debate - "the world is not flat" as you say :)
It's useful to also consider this question from the point of view of the manufacturer. Yes, we can all agree that 6 signals will forever outperform 1 signal in many ways. But as that gap in performance closes, the market for the hex solution becomes more and more niche, and the case for a profitable business model evaporates. So even acknowledging that the hex pickup is "better" (it's both better and worse IMO) you might see compatible products disappear in time. It's much easier to bank on a customer base comprised of folks with guitars with 1/4" jacks, and it's even easier to bank on CPU's getting faster, i.e. better at parsing polyphonic information from a mono signal.
The little box that has killed it for me is this damn Talk Box.I had to make a decision recently about what to bring to my gigs to make my gigging more profitable/easier to set up tear down and lastly to give the audience what it wants to hear.It wants to hear me make a bunch of stupid noises with a Talk Box most of all so all I bring now is a Talk Box/wah pedal and a Tech 21 Fly Rig played through a EHX 44 Magnum (thanks Bill Ruppert) and a 1x12 cab.Thats it.I have been rolling this way since after the NAMM show in January. All of my Roland GR55/GR20/GT10 and a bunch of other giant footprint fun creatively exciting processors are in storage. I no longer get called to play the synth.I get a ton of calls asking me to play the Talk Box. I am glad so many of you are still pushing the envelope of what is possible to do with the electric guitar. Please keep it going!
Id focus on playing guitar - and find a volunteer who wants to "work the tube near the mic
Might be more of a crowd pleaser than my schtick - hold a limbo party mid set.
(https://doublewhammied.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/lets-limbo.jpg)
FWIW - build cheap talk box
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6218.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6218.0)
I heard some "talk box" effects from Alex Hutchings, on the SY 300 demo. When I try it with voice, I might have to mix in the regular mic a bit, and see if that works.
Quote from: Smash on April 14, 2015, 09:58:29 AM
Personally I think Hex is still here to stay - we just need an up to date flagship to remind everyone why it's so good! ;)
Being able to change only my low e and a strings to a bass or baritone guitar sound with the vg8 has served me well. When i purchased the vg8 it was just updated to the ex revision and i thought that more updates would be on the way and this would be last floor box of that type that i would have to purchase. Ha.
Even if it's someday possible to do processing on each individual string's signal using a standard Monophonic pickup...it will ALWAYS be harder to do that than it would be to process output from a hexaphonic pickup. Why in the world wouldn't one want a hex pickup? Sure, they need to be improved... but there is SO much more you can do with individual string pickups. And, why stick so steadfastly to your "classic pickups" if you want to stretch the bounds of what guitar can do? If you want a classic old tone, use standard mono pickups. If not why not put a hex pickup on your instrument? They aren't difficult to install. if you want to process hex and then mix that to Mono and run it though a bunch of standard mono guitar pedals, you can do that. I just don't see the logic of pushing for using Mono pickups on guitar systems that are trying to go beyond with standard old guitar rigs can sound like. Why?
Quote from: vanceg on April 10, 2016, 02:23:54 PM
Even if it's someday possible to do processing on each individual string's signal using a standard Monophonic pickup...it will ALWAYS be harder to do that than it would be to process output from a hexaphonic pickup. Why in the world wouldn't one want a hex pickup? Sure, they need to be improved... but there is SO much more you can do with individual string pickups. And, why stick so steadfastly to your "classic pickups" if you want to stretch the bounds of what guitar can do? If you want a classic old tone, use standard mono pickups. If not why not put a hex pickup on your instrument? They aren't difficult to install. if you want to process hex and then mix that to Mono and run it though a bunch of standard mono guitar pedals, you can do that. I just don't see the logic of pushing for using Mono pickups on guitar systems that are trying to go beyond with standard old guitar rigs can sound like. Why?
Hi Vance!
You have to realize 80% of the guitar players in the world are not like us who get chubbies when we have a piece of gear and a manual to read! ( new gear thrills me to my toes!)
Most folks really do not want to mount a special pickup on their guitar or learn how to set it up AND learn how to adapt their playing AND learn how to operate or program a unit.
Its just the way it is.
I wish it wasnt!
The dream is to have the hex pup and not have to adapt to special guitar technique and get the best control of the dsp as possible. If the boss sy 300 had a 13 pin hex input, it would be a more versatile unit. If it could also accurately model acoustic instruments while keeping the modulation control that guitar technique affords us (such a vibrato), with zero latency and zero note glitching, then that would be my next purchase.
https://youtu.be/0vc4zvdhuRA
I was watching some old Foxtrot- Lamb Lies Down On Broadway era Genesis video on YouTube last night.
One of Steve Hackett's sound effect techniques was to Rake the low strings starting near the nut with either a pic or his fingers (couldn't tell).
What an incredible lineup a creative Talent and skill That was.
Of course Steve carried on with a solo career after leaving Genesis and continued with the progressive rock flavor of the music. I consider his first solo effort,"Voyage of the Acolyte",one of my favorite albums.
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
But since I might be dead before that technology arrives, and I must express myself with today's tools, I'll continue to use my hex PU guitars
and sing . . . . .
https://youtu.be/smONcs8kF0o
...and for homebody hobbyist players like me who don't gig or even have a garage band, GR55 is 1) super cheap compared to all the other stuff I would have bought (pedals, 12 string, amps, sitar, etc), or could not possibly buy (tuba, Pipe organ,etc.), 2) saves everything including amp params in one patch, 3) has a small footprint compared to a huge tangle of stuff. A Digitech RP 360 is nifty, but cant do the hex things. and my DAW has lots of goodies, but GR55 let's me play anything off the fretboard. I am, after all, a guitarist. PS rchole your posts are always fun to read.
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
Don't hold your breath.
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
I remember seeing a reference to that software in a different thread and was wondering if the individual note events can be edited and or removed?( kind of like the way MIDI note events can be edited or removed only with audio samples)
Some Melodyne editing features:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93yXresJD4E (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93yXresJD4E)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOHD7V_rnM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOHD7V_rnM)
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Many years ago polyphonic pitch editing wasn't possible - it is now (Celemony's Melodyne is one example). While this isn't realtime editing yet, that's just a matter of time. When that's worked out, hex pickups will soon afterwards become irrelevant.
That might happened if there's a monetary gain in it for the developers
( I'm sure the technology is available today )
as for the " little box " approach , it seems like that's what most guitarists want.
I'm exactly the opposite , I want all in one box and everything in stereo ( at least )
Totally with Gunar on this one.
As you say at least stereo curious to know if you've ever tried a quadrophonic or more set up? Surely that would sound immense!
Quote from: Smash on December 02, 2017, 05:43:21 AM
Totally with Gunar on this one.
As you say at least stereo curious to know if you've ever tried a quadrophonic or more set up? Surely that would sound immense!
Before I went VG I used 3 combo amps 3 extra cabinets or sometimes 6 combos 6 extra cabinets
And I've tried quad with VG 99 , the problem being standard stereo PA setup.
So yes on stage but only one time with a quad PA setup
I also mixed in DTS way back.
All of these are REALLY relevant points, and spot on. While I am OFTEN tempted by the idea of buying some of these amazing new creative pedals, I quickly realize that all of the preset management that I do, parameter recall, changing of patching and effect order, would be prohibitively difficult (but possible!) using a "bunch of little boxes"... The big advantage I see of many of these individual boxes is: They each have their own personality, and that can be a real strength when building up a collection of sounds you enjoy playing.
Laptops, too, have difficulty with providing real unified parameter and routing flexibility, though a few apps absolutely allow for that.
Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 04, 2014, 10:51:21 AM
Well, speaking for myself, little boxes. as good as they might sound, have a big problem. It takes an awful lot of them to equal all the virtual little boxes found in something like a VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, etc. They are missing a global preset system that ties them all together to let you change their settings in a single stomp. They don't have a nifty assigns system to let you modulate the controls of 3 of the boxes at once with one expression pedal. For me, lots of little boxes = one big headache at performance time.
Tablet apps, at least right now, have similar problems, since they are forced to operate in their own sandboxes, but that's changing. PC/Mac apps are better but are still a headache to set up and maintain in such a way that they work harmoniously together.
I say the state of the empire is intact. But the King should pay attention and heed the warnings. :)
Heheheh: The alternative to the 13pin connector I am LOVING right now is the Lemo connector. But it will absolutely never become an industry standard as the cable is $250 and the connectors (for use in manufacturing gear) are $80 each...
Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 08:41:46 AM
VG world is a great world but many others are doing well without a 13 Pin pickup... industry standard, ease of use.. that's what matters the most. People love a 12 Euro Jack cable.. if broken, it's replaced. You cannot do the same with a cable that cost 4 times as such!
I agree. But I'm (Very seriously) thinking this time period will be at LEAST 15 years. More likely quite a bit longer. Processing has to increase many orders of magnitude to get to where we can do what we can with Hex processing now. That said, with the products out on the market now, I think we are using about 0.1% of the potential of individual string processing.
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on December 05, 2014, 09:46:52 AM
13 pin hex pickup will vanish in time.
As processors speed up it will be done with a mono source.
Mark my words its just a matter of time!
A variation on Occams Razor could be useful here: What is the simplest way to get the functionality that 13 pin offers? Is it to build a massively powerful processor, take a signal signal and rip it apart, analyze it, break it into consituant pieces and process each one, then stitch them back together... .or is it attaching a 1/4" by 4" pickup and an extra jack to a guitar? Hex is, and will remain, MUCH easier.
We don't just need signal processing to get much faster in order for us to get the functionality out of a single pickup that we do out of Hex processing, we need that advanced signal processing to be signficantly easier and cheaper than the hex alternative.... and I Really REALLY don't see that happening for a long time.
However, I could imagine a world where enough people say "eh... I don't need the features I see available in the hex processing world... I can get some of the way there using things like the SY300". To that I'd say: You haven't seen what hex can really do yet. I mean, there is NO full end-to-end hexaphonic processing system yet! There is nothing like the VG-99 that provides a hex patch all the way through. WE ARENT EVEN to the place where processing is cheap and fast enough to do that yet. We haven't even heard what can be done yet!
I'd say - It's not ending... It hasn't yet really started.
Quote from: pasha811 on December 05, 2014, 10:46:30 AM
Although I agree with Bill Ruppert about the technological progress I think that physics cannot be won.
Many have tried the software route with Max/MSP (Fourier Transform, zero crossing or other tricks).No one really succeeded.
We need CPUs so fast that compute and disassemble the single audio stream into its components in parallel.
I think that we could do some progresses but 13pin will always have the edge. .. But I am no programmer and I can be wrong.
However I took note of what Bill said. Just to prove me wrong in the future.. ;-)
Best
Pasha
Quote from: mbenigni on April 15, 2015, 06:33:44 AM
It's useful to also consider this question from the point of view of the manufacturer. Yes, we can all agree that 6 signals will forever outperform 1 signal in many ways. But as that gap in performance closes, the market for the hex solution becomes more and more niche, and the case for a profitable business model evaporates. So even acknowledging that the hex pickup is "better" (it's both better and worse IMO) you might see compatible products disappear in time. It's much easier to bank on a customer base comprised of folks with guitars with 1/4" jacks, and it's even easier to bank on CPU's getting faster, i.e. better at parsing polyphonic information from a mono signal.
I'd mark this as a great moment for manufacturers, who now find themselves sitting on enough processing power, to take their existing products and IP that they have spent so much time and effort in developing, multiply them x 6, put 6 copies of them into one box, and start creating an entire ecosystem of hex-based processing effects. MUCH cheaper than developing all new technology, much better cost to return potential.
I absolutely realize that. I also realize that there are enough guitar players out there to support a large group of huge companies and an ENORMOUS group of small companies.... it's an enormous market. And I'd assert that the exact same thing could be said 'back in the day' about "most gutiarists don't want to weigh themselves down with technology" and "wouldn't know what to do with a whole new range of sounds". But if someone told me in 1976 that guitar rigs would get as crazy as they have been since the 80's, I would have said "there's no need, gutiarists don'w want that". We HAVE adopted a huge amount of technology since then.
All of this is to say: I think we just haven't seen what hex can REALLY do yet (well, perhaps YOU understand it!... but most guitarists haven't been able to envision it yet)... and the existing products just grab the low hanging fruit (alternate tunings, for example).
But I agree - It is going to take normalizing some of this stuff for guitarists to become comfortable with it. That said, hex pickup and 13 pin cable is NOT hard. At all. If there were a set of pedals that we could plug together and do hex processing, there would be a (small at first) market for it... but it would become normalized.
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 10, 2016, 02:48:38 PM
Hi Vance!
You have to realize 80% of the guitar players in the world are not like us who get chubbies when we have a piece of gear and a manual to read! ( new gear thrills me to my toes!)
Most folks really do not want to mount a special pickup on their guitar or learn how to set it up AND learn how to adapt their playing AND learn how to operate or program a unit.
Its just the way it is.
I wish it wasnt!
And you could create a cool product if you could get this information split out in real-time. As the makers of Melodyne will tell you, their technique is not suited to real-time, even with enormous amounts of processing. Near-real-time, yes. But the technique they use just isn't suited for instant splitting of the signal into "virtual sources". The guitar also presents some very interesting challenges such as: The same pitch can be played on different strings... even simultaneously. This would seriously make the splitting of signal much, much harder. How would you know what string it originated from? Timbre? perhaps. That's a heck of a trick, though.
I LOVE melodyne and use it a lot. And I totally agree that someday perhaps systems will be there capable of splitting signal in to 6 parts...just like is possible now with a $150 pickup... but when will it be cheaper and easier and the "best method" for doing that? It's going to be very hard to beat a simple hex in terms of price and efficiency.
Quote from: Kevin M on December 01, 2017, 10:38:40 PM
Some Melodyne editing features:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93yXresJD4E (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93yXresJD4E)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOHD7V_rnM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOHD7V_rnM)
Quote from: SuperNiCd on December 05, 2014, 07:45:22 AM
Kind of interesting to hear from those who have championed 13 pin gear at some point in their careers, and what's in their guitar chain now. I wonder how many have more or less abandoned it, at least for "every day" use, and have moved on to something else.
My main guitar chain is still the VG-99 when Im gigging. Theres nothing that touches it for live work IMO. Its super easy to tweak being at waist height. Presets which is something the EHX boxes dont have. Midi. Separate programmable outputs. Stereo. Tons of EQ available per patch. The list goes on.
Id use the little boxes in the studio but a couple of the little boxes ( an early to mid 70s Big Muff and a Guyatone TO-2 ) Ive modeled into the 99 so I dont need them on the road. I cant ever see myself giving up the 13 pin/vg-99. Ive got a few old guitars and Ive used Har-Bal to model them into the 99 and then tweaked the settings to take away some of the things I dont like about real guitars. String balance on the Strat emulation I did as the real Strat has fixed pole pieces as well as the ability to eq separate strings if needed. Theres just a bunch of stuff.
I use 13 pin every gig. Mostly with my GR55, but occasionally with my ATG-1
13 pin here too , every gig and almost every studio session from -96 and to this day.
The exception being SY300 and iPad with Jamup , Flux:FX and Loopy HD
(If they came with 13 pin I'd be over the super moon ! )
I'm using it now more than ever because I'm doing signup shows where the leader makes a set list and friends sign up for slots on the tunes. It's like sitting in with a cover band, except just about everyone is sitting in. So having the VG-99 for those shows makes it fun and easy. It's like having the history of electric guitar at your fingertips, almost.
Quote from: mooncaine on December 03, 2017, 07:38:44 PM
( The VG-99 ) It's like having the history of electric guitar at your fingertips, almost.
Bingo! If youre doin covers...theres nothing like that box. This Paul Hanson demo sold me on the unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZlHWTqfgDI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZlHWTqfgDI)
Hex is still king, but it's lead is now much reduced.
One of the major problems in my opinion is the pick up.
Yes, I know it's relatively easy to fit if you've got the patience and strong desire to unleash what it's capable of but the Gk pickup and wart hasn't really changed an awful lot in appearance since it was introduced. And whichever way you slice it - it's fugly man!
Spent 1k, 2k more? on a super dooper triple AAA last remaining rain forest uber rare tone wood flame grilled top that looks incredible and then have to stick what looks like a giant USB charger to the front of it?! really? you think?? I'd wager many guitarists are put off just by the inherent ugliness of the thing before they'd even consider the benefits. People will buy one guitar over another purely on aesthetics so we know guitarist are largely tarts (UKism btw). And the thing is, it really doesn't have to be like that at all.
Hex simply isn't sexy - apart from the Submarine which looks much more like a cool retro "regular" guitar part and does actually look good in a sound hole.
Even Fishman fell into the same trap by taking too much creedance by the Roland design and not breaking the mold - literally. It's another utilitarian design that ruins the aesthetics of any guitar it's put on.
God at least make the knobs inter changeable with regular guitar controls so it can look vaguely like it's supposed be part of the guitar it's strapped to!
So, IMHO, for HEX to even get a foot in the door with Joe Guitarist - even at this 11th hour - the pup needs to:
a) get seriously sexy - and I mean look like a premium, designer product and
b) be and instant mount/dismount device - it's an instant gratification world - if a guitarist has to start reading instructions, fiddle around with a tiny screw driver with a blade the size of a pinhead that looks like a toy that's come out of a Christmas cracker and then micro meter measure string gaps (then have to compromise because the radius is too pronounced on the pup compare to modern radius necks) well, you're going to lose a shed load of potential customers before you've started. Not forgetting having done that you still need to manually (Really?? 2 sequel to Really?? 1) adjust the string levels (Still have absolutely no clue why this isn't automated - just in terms of consistency of user experience let alone convenience. Actually I do know - it's historical - that's how it's always been done. Pah)
It's all turn offs.
EHX come along. One box. Makes you sound like a Rhodes or Mellotron or whatever. No faff. just stomp on the footswitch. Win.
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calgaryuke.com%2Fukerichard%2Fgal%2Fimages%2Fg6018DeA02.jpg&hash=ff9e334b411609b60b8391fd8c07bd2b5951df1e)
Your post has me wondering how acoustic guitar players felt when they first saw a pick up placed on a guitar with all the associated knobs.
And then what about those big tremeloes?
The GK warts arent any uglier than any other Hardware that's slapped on a beautiful piece of wood. The added hardware is just additional sound shaping tools .
Although I do prefer the gk3 look and mounting options over the old GK2's.
But if someone wants to buy 20 pedals in order to get an assortment of synth sounds with the convenience of quarter inch Plug and Play then go for it.
The main problem for digital pedals that I see is that they don't have digital in and outs which forces the user to undergo multiple da to ad conversions, each adding digital artifact noise along the signal path.
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem ;)
I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.
And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem ;)
I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.
And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.
Most of my hex guitars have built in GK
for practical reasons though
and I doubt that Joe Guitarist would.
There are the line 6 guitars and the Roland Strats etc.
Not that many Joes have tried them is my guess.
Line 6 isn't hex out though.
I still think if there genuinely is life left in hex then things like a wart/pup redesign and obvious stuff like auto level calibration (how many times has level setting been discussed) is core to increase take up. It has to be as painless as possible to encourage the switch. But I freely admit I have no market place experience - its just gut feeling about blockers to take up and the pup/wart is I think anyway, unarguably the first hurdle.
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
Line 6 isn't hex out though.
I still think if there genuinely is life left in hex then things like a wart/pup redesign and obvious stuff like auto level calibration (how many times has level setting been discussed) is core to increase take up. It has to be as painless as possible to encourage the switch. But I freely admit I have no market place experience - its just gut feeling about blockers to take up and the pup/wart is I think anyway, unarguably the first hurdle.
Many have tried to market hex PU's before - but are just relegated to history now
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Feb/Putting_the_Hex_On_the_Postmodern_Pickups.aspx
(https://www.premierguitar.com/Stream/StreamImage.aspx?Image_ID=3AAE4FEB-8EEB-4F26-AA81-5E0729608759&Image_Type=image)
http://jpsongs.com/troubadortech/mgtr.htm
https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/p_ups_uk.htm
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138im_/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/bilder/bild2.gif)
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138im_/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/bilder/bild3.gif)
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138im_/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/bilder/bild4.gif)
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138im_/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/bilder/bild5.gif)
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20010414010138im_/http://home.swipnet.se/bonotron/bilder/bild6.gif)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/4126ixog1/hwe8lszztemorkwptgdd.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/nb-1Xu2cSfIsWR1mhLEhYRrg3wuWQKGVskrLGFs76iL7JIiHSJGzEyI-AN7iv8MWo2wfcJEupiMxOB0opKVlbtGnblDpcUetuFm0Zbb5JsKpP2Irt14toaFx0GVxR6Mt=w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu)
(https://www.web.archive.org/web/20000324230922im_/http://www.johnbirchguitars.demon.co.uk/images/M3pic.gif)
https://www.web.archive.org/web/20000324230922/http://www.johnbirchguitars.demon.co.uk/midi.htm
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-X4AXEEOF1cs%2FVUu7gjuMTjI%2FAAAAAAAAAkk%2Fjq64DrL5J_s%2Fs640%2F%2524_57.JPG&hash=b8ce9f7966f8bad90b5503cdc5f909c66bd0a297)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/42/52/e7/4252e7cb71401ba8c9760fa6a20f46da.jpg)
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/out-of-the-shadows/1923
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.muzines.co.uk%2Fimages_mag%2Farticles%2FEMM_jul_1986_shadow_midi__1_large.jpg&hash=2aa06ab688886b11f137569df7415956e82282f8)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.muzines.co.uk%2Fimages_mag%2Farticles%2Frm%2FRM_92_10_shadow_sh075_large.jpg&hash=214a71b43117c4a4488cdac672b44c9ff1021f8d)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atariage.com%2Fforums%2Fuploads%2F%2Fmonthly_08_2015%2Fblogentry-37655-0-33947400-1439225250.jpg&hash=4d1ca4e1957c3bd4fa5db3194b980b05478b3545)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fatariage.com%2Fforums%2Fuploads%2Fblog-0466905001439225591.jpg&hash=e5e9818fd233c98fa304a26f7b529e770deabe92)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1986-Schaller-Shadow-GTM-6-Mulitplexer-with-MIDI-Guitar-Wiring-Harness-/141334247741
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~I8AAOSw7I5TsFeX/s-l1600.jpg)
Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.
To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.
Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and software conversion.
Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....
We may not be trying to solve the correct problem. I agree that hex PUs and the cables etc. are a royal pain. I simply would rather play my high-end Telecaster, Gretsch, etc. than my LGX-SA, even though that is a good guitar. AND, I might use those guitars if a pickup could slide discreetly and wireless under the strings by the bridge with a connection to a control box or similar. Sure.
But, here is the bottom line to my way of thinking. Most guitar players simply don't CARE enough about either synth or modeled sounds. EHX is cleaning up in the market by selling little stomp boxes to the guy who wants to throw in a quick synth stab or have a Rhodes fake on one song. Sure, there are enough esoteric players to justify some pretty weird boxes - The EarthQuaker Rainbow Machine for me is the poster child of the WTF movement in strange pedals. But even the guys who play EarthQuaker or other odd pedals may turn right around and run their Strat into a drive pedal to play the blues for a weekend gig.
Seriously, think of the guitar players you know in your area. How many of them would adopt synths and get into the stuff we do here EVEN IF the guitar magically connected to synths or modeling boxes with no modifications to the guitar at all? The guitar players I know drool over Martins, or Bad Cat amps, or the T-Rex real tape echo. They are into the crunch, the warmth, the soul of the guitar. The DEMAND is the problem my friends, not the SOLUTION.
QuoteRoll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....
already exists
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/80230d_c44570e37d5747e9a3ef2234a1a62843~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_700,h_700,al_c,q_90/80230d_c44570e37d5747e9a3ef2234a1a62843~mv2.webp)
ModeMachines Vped Prohttps://www.modemachines.com/vped-vped-pro
Go to 2:14 minutes
https://youtu.be/AZdXwy445To
QuoteRoll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter...
Or Mobile for Acoustic Guitar to JamOrigin Midi Guitar (iphone)
HONZ Tech ToneWood Amp for Acoustic Guitar(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--QyKaz1C7--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_1600,q_80,w_1600/v1475820251/bexkegpdbsqwqmuoykea.jpg)
https://www.tonewoodamp.com/
https://support.tonewoodamp.com/support/solutions/articles/17000033516-which-apps-can-i-use-with-the-tonewoodamp-
https://www.tonewoodamp.com/video-channels/
https://youtu.be/zFDjsejydJo
https://youtu.be/7asSkYei4Hc
Quote from: Brak(E)man on December 05, 2017, 12:19:56 PM
Most of my hex guitars have built in GK
for practical reasons though
and I doubt that Joe Guitarist would.
There are the line 6 guitars and the Roland Strats etc.
Not that many Joes have tried them is my guess.
Yeah - My hex pickup installs aren't one bit uglier than normal pickups. Quite attractive, I'd say.
What "MOD" are you talking about - The hex pickup is the KEY pickup. It should be the one and only pickup. ;)
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.
To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.
Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and software conversion.
Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....
Well, I think we're surely thinking of the wrong market - We aren't looking to sell to ALL guitarists. Shit, even Fender isn't selling to ALL guitarists. We are looking to sell to some small percentage of guitarists. That's plenty! If 0.01% of the guitarists used Hex, we'd have enough folks to justify developing more hex tools.
And, It strikes me that a hex pickup is absolutely as easy to install as a normal pickup. A 13pin cable is still just one cable.
If we just entirely ditched the idea of these damn 1950's technology monophonic pickups and ALL just started to convert over to using Hex exclusively, there really wouldn't be an issue. That is - the problem seems to be MIXING the two (hex and monophonic)... If you don't give a flying hoot about hearing your monophonic pickups, and you had a small box (or onboard device) that did pickup "emulation" (not necessarily emulating existing pickups...but simply making the hex pickup sound 'however you want it to') then we'd have a system that would produce "normal" guitar tones... perhraps even convincing "classic" tones... and you are playing your favorite guitar.
What I'm getting at is: 1) We don't have to have everyone convert because just a small part of the market is still huge 2) Hex pickups are really physically QUITE easy to install and configure 3)They can fit in standard pickup cutouts... you don't HAVE to drill new holes in your classic gutiar 3.5) Don't put them on your favorite old classic guitar if you don't want to...just put them on new instruments.
I just don't buy the idea that they are more difficult or cumbersome than monophonic pickups...UNLESS you are insisting on adding them on to guitars that already have monophonic pickups in them and you don't want to alter those instruments....then, quite obviously, ANY modification is not ok.
Quote from: Rhcole on December 05, 2017, 04:19:59 PM
We may not be trying to solve the correct problem. I agree that hex PUs and the cables etc. are a royal pain. I simply would rather play my high-end Telecaster, Gretsch, etc. than my LGX-SA, even though that is a good guitar. AND, I might use those guitars if a pickup could slide discreetly and wireless under the strings by the bridge with a connection to a control box or similar. Sure.
But, here is the bottom line to my way of thinking. Most guitar players simply don't CARE enough about either synth or modeled sounds. EHX is cleaning up in the market by selling little stomp boxes to the guy who wants to throw in a quick synth stab or have a Rhodes fake on one song. Sure, there are enough esoteric players to justify some pretty weird boxes - The EarthQuaker Rainbow Machine for me is the poster child of the WTF movement in strange pedals. But even the guys who play EarthQuaker or other odd pedals may turn right around and run their Strat into a drive pedal to play the blues for a weekend gig.
Seriously, think of the guitar players you know in your area. How many of them would adopt synths and get into the stuff we do here EVEN IF the guitar magically connected to synths or modeling boxes with no modifications to the guitar at all? The guitar players I know drool over Martins, or Bad Cat amps, or the T-Rex real tape echo. They are into the crunch, the warmth, the soul of the guitar. The DEMAND is the problem my friends, not the SOLUTION.
While I really don't like the 13pin cable... I don't consider it ANY more "unwieldy" than a standard guitar cable. I mean... it falls to the floor when I unplug it, i have to step over it when i turn around with my guitar on... sometimes i trip over it... JUST like I do with a 1/4" cable.
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 04:11:33 PM
Point proven! All ugly or irreversible destructive mods.
To be fair to Fishman what they did absolutely get 100% right was going wireless - that's a big chunk of unwieldy GK cable pain gone.
Personally I think the future of midi guitar (not modelling etc) is 1/4 inch stock out and software conversion.
Roll on MG3 floor pedal guitar to midi converter....
The problem here is you're already converts lol! ;D
Vped can run mg2 but how well? I thought it was largely dismissed as a box for various software issues and shortcomings.
Mg2 on ios simply doesn't hack it in terms of either latency or accuracy in close knit chords- if you want slow attack pads only then great. On ios it doesn't come close to FTP from my experience.
And I agree a full GK install doesn't harm the looks of a guitar. Some beautys on this forum - no question. But the people here on this forum are in the minority in terms of wanting to hack their guitars - if the manufacturer takes the same tact that if customers really want it theyll do it it will always result in niche take up.
Joe Guitarist isn't interested in modelling? You're joking! Kemper? Katana? and every single MFX out there all have modelled effects. Modelling as a concept is absolutely accepted by majority (not all granted) what we're talking about here is ultimately accessibility. EHX success (based on title of this thread) tells you Joe Guitarist will go for it its painless.
I don't think the answer will come from groups like this as we're all too blinkered by the past telling us what isnt possible. Theres a lot of 'its not possible' attitude - it needs left of field, blue sky (hate that term!) thinking. The SY was a step in the right direction but didn't quite hit the mark.
Again it's all just imo - I just think it needs a rethink before a new GK flagship is viable.
The answer to the OP question is Yes, they are.........because they're painless and they work
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 11:49:07 PM
Joe Guitarist isn't interested in modelling? You're joking! Kemper? Katana? and every single MFX out there all have modelled effects. Modelling as a concept is absolutely accepted by majority (not all granted) what we're talking about here is ultimately accessibility. EHX success (based on title of this thread) tells you Joe Guitarist will go for it its painless.
Most of the Joe Guitarists are still arguing solid state vs tube , kemper are seen as a bad replica , not comparable to the " real thing " and barely accepted. Katana as a regular amp with the side Q ( if they are models ? ) about the different amps in Katana. ( and most of them won't check out the sneaky amps , too complicated) and most of them run their stomp boxes with Katana instead of the built in FX.
As far as multifx goes , they want them working as stomp boxes.
One button per fx , one knob to tweak per fx etc. and preferably analogue with a tube in there
at least for show.
Ehx success I think is based on the fact that they look like the stomp boxes that Joes got used to ,
less than how they sound , and that they did make Big Muff , Electric Mistress etc.
I do think you're right in general.
The wart the hex the cable the model fx aren't rocknroll
And for the major part of Joes that's what matters.
that's where it's at IMO and I don't see that changing.
The valve bit made me laugh - suddenly had the thought of a "new" analog digital delay, featuring the crystaline clarity of digital with warm fuzziness of valves! :D Sad thing is it'd probably be lapped up, lol!
Quote from: Smash on December 05, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
Not uglier? Thats a tech head guitarist talking, and thats the problem ;)
I think the fact that pretty much all acoustic guitar pups are well hidden if not invisible now tells you no one wants an ugly bolt on.
And you're kind of missing my point - I'm sure Joe Guitarist would be happy to try a hex multi processor if that initial wart problem could be overcome.
Maybe it's not ugly enough. The hex could be sturdier and bigger. The connectors would be more durable, the installation less intimidating. Less delicate, more rugged might appeal to guys used to adjusting a bridge with a standard size screwdriver. Jeep mentality.
Maybe it's ugly because, like a zit, it tries to hide but it can't. So make it big and chrome finished. Call it the "Whalloping Galumpke" and include a Bixby.
Or... ditch the gk3 knot in favor of a waist level control surface, so maybe the A/D could be moved there. Then the wire off the guitar would be very thin and small- just zip tie it to your mono cable. These thin cables would be cheap and click into the hex like telephone cords.
Or... how about locating the A/D circuits in a special modified strap? It could have sensor controls that you activate by touching. Or make some kind of cyborg gauntlet, like a Michael Jackson glove with exposed fingers, or a velcro band you can put on your upper arm like a jogger's biofeedback thingy.
I like the GK-3 as is because it's a cheapest most efficient compromise, but maybe having more options could help reach more people?
Quote from: Smash on December 06, 2017, 01:20:42 AM
The valve bit made me laugh - suddenly had the thought of a "new" analog digital delay, featuring the crystaline clarity of digital with warm fuzziness of valves! :D Sad thing is it'd probably be lapped up, lol!
http://effectextra.blogspot.com/2010/10/guyatone-flip-ad-x-analog-delay-with.html
(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--BySTyJmm--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1473425349/owlwgqcre7tetabm6uwl.jpg)
Quote from: admsustainiac on December 06, 2017, 01:52:47 AM
http://effectextra.blogspot.com/2010/10/guyatone-flip-ad-x-analog-delay-with.html
(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--BySTyJmm--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1473425349/owlwgqcre7tetabm6uwl.jpg)
At least it's all analog!
Quote from: admsustainiac on December 06, 2017, 01:52:47 AM
http://effectextra.blogspot.com/2010/10/guyatone-flip-ad-x-analog-delay-with.html
(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--BySTyJmm--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1473425349/owlwgqcre7tetabm6uwl.jpg)
I remember seeing another tube delay on the Forum. It looked like a Whitman's sampler candy box.
One thing I think is very interesting is why we care whether or not Joe Blow guitarist gets into Hi-Tech hex processing.
Is it the lack of aesthetic appeal, or learning curve, lack of understanding of what the product can do, or even added expanse keeping high tech gear a niche market?
Or is it really about what their favorite rock stars are using?
The only reason I can think of why we care is because, as high-tech guitar enthusiasts and sound explorers, we want more of those products.
Bingo. If Roland had sold enough VG-99s, we would all own VG-120s by now.
I guess that part of my point is: The MASS of "Joe Guitarists" aren't going to care about a lot of what hex pickups can do. But that mass is so huge that just a small portion of that mass could still be an interesting market, even for the big players. There are some capabilities which are most easily achieved by using hex pickups (alternate tunings, pitch detection on each string, many unique and obviously useful effects like hex distortion) that would not be a challenge to see as being useful to the "average" guitarists (as opposed to us "already converted weirdos"). Just those two facts would make me think that there is ENOUGH of a market for Hex pickups to continue some effort developing for it.
Now, the big players can take some big risks - Like introducing this technology to the wider market. And they can survive when the whole market doesn't pick it up. And the super small players can make targeted products and stay alive because they only need a small customer base to stay afloat (at least for a while). It's the middle sized companies that seem most challenged at being able to introduce and sustain such products.
Frankly I don't know if hex processing will take off ever... but it seems like it could.. and it SURELY seems like it can exist as a long term sub-market....