Tube Amp and MultiFX what's the point if it breaks down the analog signal chain?

Started by pasha811, January 05, 2018, 01:28:22 AM

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pasha811

Just confused about googling too much and speaking to friends.
If I got a minimal amp like AC15 or Bassbreaker 007 or other tube small amps usually they lack reverb on board.
It's the tube warmness, you have to trade in portability, weight and sound for Spring Reverb on board.
I mean purists always talk about signal chain in the analog domain so Tubes have that typical sound.
For example I can put my regular guitar into such amps and get a good tone with no effects at all. However, usually those small amps have no loop fx unless you scale up to bigger ones. In any case in my understanding if you place a pedal or Multifx in the loop fx or front of the amp, you'll finally get a digital processed sound (a sound that has been converted at least once from analog to digital and back) even if you add a simple Chorus Delay Reverb chain. Thinking about GT-1 it's the same. So why people are insisting on 'tube' sound id that sound it's not pure anymore the moment you add an FX front of the amp or in the loop fx?
That really gets me confused.

Thanks for helping
Cheers
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

admin

Tone is in your fingers




and most pro guitarists I know are like plumbers - must use specific  tools for the specific job at hand and use every piece of gear on this post , from 50 year old tube amps, to MIDI triggering systems, to modern DSP Modeler / profiler












https://www.facebook.com/xraysimonmusic/

gumtown

Sometime things just aren't practical to take with you,
if you want a real guitar echo effect


or a plate reverb


Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

GeePeeAxe

Only a few multi-fx units work really good with tube amps, connected with the "4 cable method". One is the GT-100, the other is Boss MS-3. You can route the distortion or booster part into the preamp section of the guitar-amp and the modulation or reverb or delay effect into the poweramp section of the guitar-amp. Buying an amp without FX-loop is only for people who dont want to use effects. Feeding effects like reverb or delay or chorus into the preamp tubes is also completely wrong - though it can sound good on some very clean amps. I would not recommend this. These days I am thinking about buying a modulation-delay combo-FX-unit to use it in the fx-loop of my tube-amp. Mabe the H2O made by TrueTone would be nice, though it is not cheap.

Brak(E)man

Tube amps etc are like placebo
Whatever you think sounds better
might make you play better
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: GeePeeAxe on January 05, 2018, 03:37:40 AM
Only a few multi-fx units work really good with tube amps, connected with the "4 cable method". One is the GT-100, the other is Boss MS-3. You can route the distortion or booster part into the preamp section of the guitar-amp and the modulation or reverb or delay effect into the poweramp section of the guitar-amp. Buying an amp without FX-loop is only for people who dont want to use effects. Feeding effects like reverb or delay or chorus into the preamp tubes is also completely wrong - though it can sound good on some very clean amps. I would not recommend this. These days I am thinking about buying a modulation-delay combo-FX-unit to use it in the fx-loop of my tube-amp. Mabe the H2O made by TrueTone would be nice, though it is not cheap.

Well I'm after a practice amp. I have very rare occasions to go on stage. Lately I like jazzy / Bluesy sound and plenty of small tube amps at affordable weight size and price are available. However the little Katana 50 really pops up every time. Got a friend that built tube amp so we discuss the usual solid state vs tube amp stuff. The discussion of a life but technology in the last 15 years made big jumps and... a 199 Euro Katana or a 223 Euro GT-40 are blinking the eye to me every time I look at a Bassbreaker 007 or AC1C-12 that will cost 400-450 Euros.  At the same time I have VG99 GP-10 and GT-1 (this a GAS Attack) to match. I have a pair of powered speakers from Behringer B210D that take my COSM stuff without a glitch but I was wondering about all of this Tube vs Solidstate amps.   
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/



Mrchevy

I had solid state amps all my life, (Rockman XP 100, fender princeton chorus, ultimate chorus, THR10C, just to name a few). Finally drank the "TUBE" juice and bought a tubemeister 18 a couple of years ago. I play it once in a while to justify the purchase but 99% of what i do is with the GR55 and GT100 thru powered monitors. Back in the day, amps and pa were for the most part tube. Yet, you know what song or band it was by their unique sound. The difference between Zepplin and the Who was the music and musicians, not the tubes in their amps. My Tubemeister collects dust. I always laughed at tube purist. Yes, tube amps may have a certain aura about them, but then so did my Rockman. My wife used to say it sounds great but everything you play sounds like Boston. Heres my take on the tube vs solid state...... they are all mostly one trick ponies with their given unique sounds, if thats what you want...... for everyone else, there is MFX and versatility. All ingredients have a uniqueness to them, but once they are mixed, blended, baked, fried, or bar b que'd..... they all come out with a different and unique flavor (hopefully good enough to eat, or listen to, what ever the case may be.) Analog vs digital? Hmmmmmmmm........I never payed it no mind......and I doubt the drunk hanging on their girlfriend or boyfriend in the audience did either. Does one really sound better than the other? I say does it matter if its the best damn music you've ever heard. 8)
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Mrchevy

Allow me to share this video that Elantric posted on a different thread, then...... read my next post
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Mrchevy

SO, how many of you listened to the whole song and dissected what was tube or solid state, or digital or analog. Not me, really didn't think about it. All I thought about was this chick ROCKS..........and she was pretty cute too ;)
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

Quote from: Mrchevy on January 05, 2018, 04:02:44 PM
SO, how many of you listened to the whole song and dissected what was tube or solid state, or digital or analog. Not me, really didn't think about it. All I thought about was this chick ROCKS..........and she was pretty cute too ;)


chrish

Tube amps are the gold standard for every digital modeler out there. Just saying.

If I had a VG 99 versus a Fender Twin Reverb tube amp and had to haul them to a gig, I'd choose the VG 99 and have a small lightweight tube power amp.

If I was a pro musician and had Roadies, then I would have 2 Fender Twin Reverb tube amps along with the VG 99.

admin

In my case it's been the specific live gig situation that dictates what gear I bring to the gig

if I'm a solo performer it's a no-brainer -  bring the VG 99 or GP10 or other V guitar system and go straight to PA however if I'm sitting in with an existing Bar  Band as lead guitar player for the night , I'll bring a standard guitar amp because it sits better on the stage mix and provides better results.  Often I have 3 minutes tops to setup / tear down  on the stage and Katana with GAFC footcontroller is all I need to get the job done well , even when the other guitarist has a Marshall with  4x12 cab on stage.

In order to use IEMs requires a major gear commitment and rehearsals and a sound man that simply are not available options for many of my gigs

GeePeeAxe

My problem was some 5 years ago (and earlier too) that I did not understand the relation between tube preamps and the powersection. I used a couple of tube preams with VGs and a PA also on stage. Then, some 5 years ago, I started to hear the "poweramp compression/distortion". I became addicted to this sound, see also my homepage:

http://appaz7.free.fr

There is no transistor or digital gear that can keep up with the clean-lead sound (a la Mark Knopfler) of my Laney Cub 12r and there is no digital-solidstate amp that can articulate lead guitar sound like my Engl Rockmaster does. I will put some samples on Youtube soon to show you how it sounds. Finally in the age of 60 I own the holy grail of (my) guitar sound.

GeePeeAxe

P. S.:

Unfortunatelly those 19 " rack multi-FX units are out of fashion, so I am not sure which FX will be put in the fx-loops of my 2 amps. Because my Laney Cub 12r is only 1 channel, I will put some booster/drive pedals in front of it, delay and chorus would be fine in the fx-loop. The Rockmaster by Engl has such a fantastic lead tone, that any booster/driver pedal is obsolete. Maybe an H2O will be OK in the fx-loop... Any other suggestions?

chrish

Quote;"Finally in the age of 60 I own the holy grail of (my) guitar sound."

I'm with you there bro at almost 63, same thing as i finally have the cash to spend on a mix of Modern Gear and old vintage gear to model the cacophony of sound that's in my head.

pasha811

Happy to see very interesting comments. This place is the best on the net and not only for Virtual gear.
Being 52 myself, with a spine in bad condition I have to check weight before any other feature. Since 2011 I was using VG99 on stage directly into PA now GP10 or GT-1 depending on the needs. At home I would like a cute little amp (not much space in my flat) to practice. Possibly that will never stand on a stage but .. who knows? Cuteness factor and weight factor  go hand in hand in GT-40 while soundwise I think Katana 50 plays better (but I haven't found a store that has both at the same time). Recently I went to a used fair event and I played an artisan made Greek guitar, 
https://www.fremeditiguitars.com/guitars/semi-hollow/35-euphony into a Fender tube amp and it was great. https://shop.fender.com/en-IT/guitar-amplifiers/vintage-pro-tube/57-custom-twin-amp/product-8140500.html#start=1
Well that costs a fortune and it's heavy.. so that's why I was looking into cute tube amps. In any case beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. and sound in its ears.  ;D

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

alexmcginness

I still have a Blues breaker and a handmade Serbian Eliminator all tube amp. I rarely use them as the VG 99 and other processors are what I record with. You can get them to sound as authentic as the real thing. Ive run into purists and I use to be one of them and youll never convince the die-hard ones that cling to the religion of tubes as its a tough sell. Ive played a few of my purists friends this track by Free. Its called all right now and I ask them if they believe that virtual amps and even virtual guitars could come close to a real 59 Burst and an old Marshall that Kossof used. So have a listen and you tell me.
https://soundcloud.com/smashmashups/alright-now-vg99-patch-demo

This is my favorite "analog" comparison.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

scratch17

I have two setups in my studio. One is pure analog from my pickups through my pedals and amp to my speakers.

The other is based on a VG-99 and a Kemper going to a Mackie Onyx mixer and a pair of Line 6 L2M powered PA speakers.

Wait! I actually have three setups. The third gets its parts from the first two. So it is mixed analog and digital.

And I like the sound of my TC Electronic G-Major multi effects box with the piezo outputs from my Taylor, Hamer and Brian Moore guitars. I use a light touch with it.

I originally bought it for use with my electric guitar. I do not use it in that application, as I now have better solutions.

I have 5 tube amps (Mesa, Marshall, Fender, Ampeg). I have also owned two Polytone solid state amps (a Mini Brute II and a Model 104).

No tube amp I've ever had could replicate the sound of the Min Brute when it started to break up around 7 on its volume knob. Fantastic, very unique sound for rhythm. And for lead, it did well at 8+. It is just different than the sound of a tube amp's distorted sounds. I never tried to push the 104. It was just too damn loud and I didn't have a load box at the time. I still regret selling the Mini Brute.

I also use UA plugins (compressors, flangers, chorus, reverbs, etc.) with my electric guitar through my Apollos, even when I use a tube amp. This setup involves using a serial effects loop on the amp or placing the Apollo between the guitar and the amp's input.

As an aside, I don't like to use parallel loops or serial loops that bleed some of the dry signal to the return. That is the one thing I don't like about my Mesa Recto Recording Preamp. In fact all of the Mesa loops are like that.

Does putting digital effects in the analog signal path make the chain sound "digital"? Not to my ears.

I have compared the UA Marshall Plexi amp sim, which is a Unison plugin, to my 2000 DSL 401 combo amp. I split my guitar's signal with my Radial JDV DI. The pass through output of the JDI goes to my Apollo 8's Hi Z (Unison) input. One of the JDV's drag compensated outputs goes to the Marshall amp.

If I dial it in well, I can get almost the exact same sound from either the Plexi plugin or the Marshall amp. And with Unison technology, the interaction between my pickups and the plugin feels the same as the pickups through the tube amp.

I am talking about the sound of the two setups live. Not a recorded track. In the case of the UA amp sim plugins, I send the output from my Apollo to my Mackie Onyx and Line 6 L2M speaker.

For my two cents, mixing analog and digital equipment successfully is a matter of using devices with high quality converters.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

DreamTheory

Once you record a guitar and stick it into a busy mix, it matters less if it is real or fake. To the listerner, that is. The player may get extra mojo, thus perform better. Do whatever lights your fire.

In most home situations you can't play super loud; so there's a factor. So you can go so for the (sorta kinda solid state) Blues Cube or Katana and step it down. Is a 1/2 watt Katana all that different from a digital mfx or software model/simulation?

The question is, does adding digital to chain spoil the tube-osity? Axiomatic answer: Real is always better than fake. YMMV. Playing skill and composition trumps gear anyway.

For most live sutuations, go for simple and rugged.
electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

Kevin M

Quote from: Mrchevy on January 05, 2018, 03:58:49 PM
Allow me to share this video that Elantric posted on a different thread, then...... read my next post


Meytal is an awesome drummer!

Smash

If it sounds good, it is good. Nothing else matters.

When I think of things we did yo get a 'sound' back in 88 in analog 48 track studios - at one point I was outputting my GP8 through a 10 band graphic that is bolted an old school scratch filter in to remove anything over 6k like an way poor man's cab emulator! On it's own not bad but stuck through an Aphex excited it sounded bloody amazing!!