Gibson shutters Cakewalk and Sonar

Started by germanicus, November 21, 2017, 04:34:37 PM

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Kevin M

Not a fan of software as a service anyway.


Elantric

http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/category/miaudio-business/

http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/2017/08/31/gibson-shakeup/


August 31, 2017
in MI/Audio Business by Bobby Owsinski
|
10   comments
A Big Shakeup At Gibson Could Be Coming Soon
Gibson BrandsIn 2012 execs at Gibson Guitar saw that the musical instrument business was in the midst of a what has now become a long slow decline, with fewer new buyers of guitars as tastes in music changed. The company wisely sought to diversify and went on a buying spree, purchase interests in companies like Onkyo, Tascam, Esoteric, and Stanton (among quite a few others) in an effort to make up for what looked like a potential loss of future revenue. The problem was that the company borrowed the money for the acquisitions, and none have exactly turned into a cash cow since. As a result, the company is now facing the prospect of several huge debt payments that it might not be able to meet or refinance.

As reported by the tech business site Strata-gee, Moody's has downgraded Gibson's credit rating mostly because of the upcoming $520 million in debt coming due in 2018, and the fact that it's revenues are steadily declining. As a result, Moody's took took its position because, "Gibson's weak operating performance, liquidity pressure from approaching maturities, and the view that the company's capital structure is unsustainable." Gibson Brands has a $145 million secured bank loan coming due July 23, 2018, and another $375 million note coming due on August 1, 2018.

While Gibson is selling off some of its assets to draw down the debt (like these properties in Nashville), Moody's doesn't feel that will make a substantial difference. Once reason is the fact that the company is limited in the number and types of guitars that it can make due to new government regulations for certain wood products. This is the Gibson's main major source of income, so fewer models plus fewer buyers doesn't bode well for the future.

While you can't fault the company for trying to diversify due to the impending slide in guitar sales (which as an industry are about half of what they were a decade ago), borrowing money to do so is the big problem here. A bet was made that the newly acquired companies would make up for the shortfall. The only problem with that strategy was that the companies that Gibson purchased were pretty much in the same industry and were having problems as well.

Anyone who's been in the music business on some level knows how revered the Gibson name and brand is. Let's hope that regardless what happens, that legacy is preserved.



Read more: http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/2017/08/31/gibson-shakeup/#ixzz522ezmayN

Tony Raven

Quote from: Elantric on December 22, 2017, 05:06:13 PMOnce reason is the fact that the company is limited in the number and types of guitars that it can make due to new government regulations for certain wood products.
I would very much appreciate if someone could direct me to a definitive source for specifics about these potentially onerous regulations. I can't find anything online but the usual Facebookian speculation.

HecticArt

Quote from: Tony Raven on December 22, 2017, 08:39:10 PM
I would very much appreciate if someone could direct me to a definitive source for specifics about these potentially onerous regulations. I can't find anything online but the usual Facebookian speculation.
The numbers and types of models that they make shouldn't make any difference as long as the woods are sourced according to the current laws.
If Gibson is so poorly managed that they aren't willing to find new species or sources for wood, that's a different story.

Tony Raven

Quote from: HecticArt on December 23, 2017, 01:35:01 AMIf Gibson is so poorly managed...
Yah, that was pretty much my thought as well.

I mean, maybe Gibson has been using some super-secret combination ultra-rare rainforest hardwoods that cost many thousands of dollars per board-foot.

...or maybe there's a massive anti-Gibson conspiracy fomented by the lizardoid Democrats who have siezed control of key positions in the Federal government. (This appears closest to Owsinki's understanding. ::))

...or maybe Gibson is being run by a gaggle of arrogant idiots.

Based on Occam's Razor alone ("among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected"), I lean toward Door #3. ;D

clearlight

I took advantage of Steinbergs crossgrade for Sonar refugees and so far I am super happy with it.
BEWARE: You will have to use JBridge or similar for any 32 bit plugins and you lose a few Sonar only plugins but they kinda sucked anyway.

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admin

#57
Quote from: Tony Raven on December 22, 2017, 08:39:10 PM
I would very much appreciate if someone could direct me to a definitive source for specifics about these potentially onerous regulations. I can't find anything online but the usual Facebookian speculation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900
QuoteGibson Guitar controversy[edit]
See also: Gibson Guitar Corporation: Recent criticism and controversy
Gibson Guitar Corporation was raided twice by federal authorities in 2009 and 2011. Federal prosecutors seized wood from Gibson facilities, alleging that Gibson had purchased smuggled Madagascar ebony and Indian rosewood.[11][12] Gibson initially denied wrongdoing and insisted that the federal government was bullying them.[11][13][14][15]

In August 2012, Gibson entered into a Criminal Enforcement Agreement with the Department of Justice, admitting to violating the Lacey Act. The terms of the agreement required Gibson to pay a fine of $300,000 in addition to a $50,000 community payment, and to abide by the terms of the Lacey Act in the future.[11][16]

Lumber Liquidators incident[edit]
For violating the Lacey Act, Lumber Liquidators was sentenced to $13.15 million in penalties, five years of probation, and additional government oversight for illegal lumber trafficking.[17] The U.S. Department of Justice said it was the largest financial penalty ever issued under the Lacey Act.[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/
https://www.fws.gov/international/laws-treaties-agreements/us-conservation-laws/lacey-act.html

https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php
https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/wildlife/Exsum_Wildlife_report_2016.pdf
https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

https://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/06/gibson-guitar-to-pay-350000-in-penalties-and-lose-seized-tropical-hardwood/

http://humanevents.com/2014/05/30/the-true-villains-behind-the-gibson-guitar-raid-are-revealed/
===

https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species
Published Dec 11, 2016 by Peter Schu
News and Reviews
   
CITES is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is legislation meant to protect endangered species of wildlife, forests and fisheries. With new CITES requirements surrounding the international shipment of instruments containing rosewood, we are trying to make it as easy as possible for sellers to comply. Be sure to read our other articles about dealing with CITES, "The (Relatively) Painless Way to Deal with CITES" and "CITES Compliance: Answering Common Questions for Sellers."

Please note that domestic sales and personal instruments carried across borders do not have these same restrictions. In this article, we will attempt to provide some clarity on this issue, but nothing contained herein should be construed, or relied upon, as legal advice. Instead, we are simply passing on some best practices that have worked for Reverb users in the past.

A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of any kind of rosewood or certain types of bubinga.

It does not apply to instruments shipped within the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods].

This is a developing story, with details emerging as government agencies figure out how to create processes around the new requirements. To what degree they are enforced remains to be seen.

Here's what we know so far.

The New Regulation on Rosewood and Bubinga
The Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna (CITES) held a conference from September 24 - October 4 this year in Johannesburg, South Africa where it was decided that all species of rosewood under the genus Dalbergia and three bubinga species (Guibourtia demeusei, Guibourtia pellegriniana, and Guibourtia tessmannii) will be protected under CITES Appendix II.

Kosso - sometimes called African rosewood (Pterocarpus erinaceus) - will also be protected.

While Brazilian Rosewood is currently under CITES protection (those laws will stay in place), this move places all the other nearly 300 species of rosewood under similar regulation.

This includes the East Indian rosewood and Honduran rosewood - as well as woods like cocobolo (Dalbergia retusa) and African blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon) - that are widely used in the manufacturing of stringed instruments, marimbas and some woodwinds.

RELATED ARTICLE


Guitaronomics: The Rising Cost of Tonewood
The traditional woods used to make guitars are dwindling in supply. What does this mean for the future of our industry?


What This Means
For manufacturers:
When importing any species of Dalbergia or the other woods mentioned, there must be an accompanying CITES certificate from the country it came from if it arrives after January 2, 2017.

Manufacturers who currently have stockpiles of the newly regulated wood must document their inventory and apply for pre-convention certificates.

For dealers and sellers:
When shipping musical instruments that include any amount (i.e. fingerboard, back, sides, binding) of Dalbergia or the other newly regulated woods out of your country as part of a commercial transaction, each one must be accompanied by a CITES re-export certificate.

Even if the instrument was made with Dalbergia or the other regulated woods that were acquired before January 2, 2017 - such as a used or vintage instrument - it still must be accompanied by a CITES certificate and marked pre-convention when shipping internationally.

For example, a seller in Nashville looking to ship her 2013 Martin 000-28 with East Indian rosewood back and sides to a buyer in Canada must apply for a re-export certificate, pay the application fee, receive the certificate, and include that document with the guitar when shipping.

For sellers in the United States, CITES re-export certificates must be applied for through the US Fish and Wildlife Service. You can download the application here.
https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdf


Representatives of the agency have said that initial turnaround times on certificate application may be on the order of months.

For more information, you can contact their office at (703) 358-2104 or at managementauthority@fws.gov. You can read the official letter from US Fish and Wildlife here.
https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/letter-appendix-III-timber-listings-november-2016.pdf

If you contact US Fish and Wildlife, please keep in mind that they did not suggest or create this regulation - the parties of the international CITES conference did. The employees of US Fish and Wildlife are trying to work with manufacturers and sellers to develop streamlined processes around this.

Each country has its own CITES Management Authority. If you live outside the United States, you can look up the CITES contact in your country here.
https://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp


Why This Happened
CITES is an international agreement that has been in effect since 1975. Its goal is to ensure that international trade of wildlife does not threaten the survival of species or the health of ecosystems. Nations participate in and adhere to CITES regulations voluntarily, but it is legally binding for those opting in.

According to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, rosewood accounted for the highest percentage of illicit wildlife seizures by value from 2005 to 2014.
https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/wildlife/Exsum_Wildlife_report_2016.pdf


The reason for the billion-dollar demand for rosewood - and the subsequent trafficking - has less to do with musical instruments and much more to do with furniture.

In particular, China's high-end furniture market created enormous demand that led to severe deforestation of several Dalbergia species in Thailand, Vietnam, and several other countries.

Not all Dalbergia species are threatened by the furniture boom. But rather than train border officials across the world how to identify the nuanced differences between them - something that even experts struggle with at times - the participants of the CITES conference decided to create a blanket regulation on the entire genus of Dalbergia wood.


The (Relatively) Painless Way to Deal with CITES
New international regulations on selling rosewood have made cross–border sales tougher. We're here to make it easy.
https://reverb.com/news/the-relatively-painless-way-to-deal-with-cites



What This Will Look Like In Reality
The number of musical instruments containing some amount of rosewood, cocobolo, bubinga or kosso that cross international borders each day is staggering.

To put it mildly, the new regulation creates a lot of new work on very short notice for government agencies around certificate approval and issuance.

Instruments sold to buyers outside your country will be subject to CITES enforcement by the receiving countries. The consistency and vigilance in checking for documentation is something that remains to be seen.

As this is a developing story with emerging details from CITES and US Fish and Wildlife, please stay tuned for updates and new information.

Tony Raven

Yah, I'm familiar with CITES.

But I have yet to see how it is that CITES affects Gibson more than any other company -- even all other companies combined -- as Owsinski's article implies.

Unless Fender has a secret domestic forest (or massive stockpile), then their California-made guitars are in the exact same boat as Nashville LPs.
Quote from: Elantric on December 22, 2017, 05:06:13 PMWhile Gibson is selling off some of its assets to draw down the debt ... Moody's doesn't feel that will make a substantial difference. Once reason is the fact that the company is limited in the number and types of guitars that it can make due to new government regulations for certain wood products. This is the Gibson's main major source of income, so fewer models plus fewer buyers doesn't bode well for the future.
If it was standard mahogany then, sure, Gibson would be in seriously deep weeds compared to Fender. Ebony? Okay, yah, maybe.

...but the articles about CITES keep mentioning rosewood... which is kinda the standard fingerboard material, period. ??? I didn't keep track, but I'm pretty sure that Brazilian rosewood (rainforest) has been tightly controlled since at least the early 1980s, & almost all guitars since have used plantation-grown Indian rosewood. The Reverb.com article repeatedly muddies the issue by referring to the Brazilian wood, ignoring Indian.

Owsinksi also indicates broadly that Gibson is suffering from The Great Guitar Decline in a manner entirely out of proportion to other manufacturers. (I did note that "the impending slide in guitar sales" has been going on for at least "a decade." ::)) The world has gone awash in good-quality low-buck guitars, but Gibson continued to bank on the cash value of a really expensive decal even as they've let quality slip AND cut corners on materials; any investor that, seeing that, bought in anyway was hoping to bail before Reality caught up, & so (IMO) ought to be tied to the anchor & go down with the company.

Maybe Gibson should stop diluting their own brand, like how they at any given moment are turning out a bunch of Gibson LP models & even more Epi LP models. Visiting their site, & selecting only 2018 USA Gibson LPs, I see 12 models, from the Faded ($989) to the Standard HP ($3,629), half $1,999 or less. (To be fair, third-cheapest is actually a Junior, the same old bandsawed POS as ever, priced at $1,429, or ten times what a near-identical Austin can be had for.)

To have a chance, they ought to back to a few select versions, at maybe two price tiers (three if the Custom Shop can stop cranking out random crap for "collectors" & build actual one-off & short-run instruments). Instead, they presently keep their workers from concentrating on core skills, they choke the distribution chain with routing & warehousing problems, & they apparently think that this failed strategy is only experiencing problems because they need to do it HARDER.

Though the old corporate masters are long dead, it's still fact that Gibson spent many years ridiculing the "something for everyone" proletarian approach of Fender, not to mention Fender's use of pretty colors to disguise less-than-masterful luthiery. Gibson SUCKS at being "just like Fender" yet they pour $$$ down the drain trying to beat them at the very game Fender wrote the rules for. Meanwhile, Fender rarely even considers head-to-head competition except for the occasional short-lived model (semiacoustic, bound body, set neck, etc.) as if to casually demonstrate they could do so if they desired.

Porsche & BMW don't make "affordable" cars, because that goes directly against their core ethos; Rolex doesn't license $100 watches for Walmart. Gibson could stick much closer to their own "high-quality" ethos, & cut waaaay back on undercutting demand with a slough of Epis (some of which are better than Gibsons at the same price-point). Treat workers as craftspeople, & put lots of effort into creating a healthy corporate culture. Play to the myth, aim for perfection, keep prices (thus margin) high. Until the company understands guitars, they might get out of diversification they know even less well.

vtgearhead

Quote from: Tony Raven on December 31, 2017, 01:56:30 PM
Maybe Gibson should stop diluting their own brand, like how they at any given moment are turning out a bunch of Gibson LP models & even more Epi LP models. Visiting their site, & selecting only 2018 USA Gibson LPs, I see 12 models, from the Faded ($989) to the Standard HP ($3,629), half $1,999 or less. (To be fair, third-cheapest is actually a Junior, the same old bandsawed POS as ever, priced at $1,429, or ten times what a near-identical Austin can be had for.)

To have a chance, they ought to back to a few select versions, at maybe two price tiers (three if the Custom Shop can stop cranking out random crap for "collectors" & build actual one-off & short-run instruments). Instead, they presently keep their workers from concentrating on core skills, they choke the distribution chain with routing & warehousing problems, & they apparently think that this failed strategy is only experiencing problems because they need to do it HARDER.

One of the first things Steve Jobs did upon his return to Apple in the 90s was to ruthlessly cut down the number of models and variants in their line.  There are real costs associated with an explosion of different products, both in actual overhead within the company and customer confusion / overload when considering them.

whippinpost91850

#60
TONY, this is a very well stated and smart discourse..

As a former Gibson warranty center ( I know not a terribly big deal) the quality has been pretty hap hazard for a long long time!

Worst thing they ever did was move from the Parsons st, Kalamazoo address, with all the craftsmen, many whom stayed with Heritage

But couldn't agree more, that Gibson should concentrate on Great American guitars and divest and forget the other bullshit

germanicus

I ended up getting Cubase. Will continue using Sonar for existing project, but new stuff will be in Cubase.

Bummer!
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
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admin


https://www.gearnews.com/gibson-snubbing-namm-show-2018-strategic-choice-financial-one/

read the comments re Gibson skipping NAMM
this one stands out
QuoteWilliam Paxson • 8 days ago
Well from a Yank's point of view (and also from a person who previously managed and ran a successful guitar store for almost 24 years-and yes we were a Gibson dealer among other top brands), seeing as how Gibson has essentially gutted their dealer network here in the States and pretty much just have some big box/internet vendors with a sprinkling to big budget indy/speciality dealers left, going to NAMM is probably redundant. Here in my home State of Indiana, as far as I can tell, there are only three outlets for Gibson products left: Sweetwater, Guitar Center, and Sam Ash. There used to be some smaller dealers who were Epiphone only vendors but that seems to have gone away. With Gibson's insane buy-in and stocking requirements, they probably realized that nobody at NAMM was going to be lining up to be a Gibson dealer so why bother (which in itself probably speaks volumes as well).


HecticArt


Kevin M


Rhcole

He has a a scary quality... Elantric and others have mentioned this.  :o

Elantric


Flamguy1

That is very typical of Henry J. He's done this with countless companies. They used to own Opcode which was wonderful sequencing software, then scrapped it. One wonders how they remain profitable with so much monetary mis-adventuring. But this hits home to me as an dedicated Sonar user. I guess all those Les Paul sales give him the money to endlessly speculate. Maybe they need a board of directors to help with these decisions! Just don't sell him any wood without the proper paper trail!

chrish

Some CEO's make money with acquisitions and then liquidating the assets. Or liquidating competing products.

I don't know enough about this company to know if any of that is going on though.

Kevin M

I kind of think Cakewalk will get new life, eventually. I bought Logic Pro X for new projects, but my Windows system isn't going anywhere any time soon.


arkieboy

Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

germanicus

#73
From their announcement:

QuoteBandLab Technologies did not acquire the operating company of Cakewalk Inc., only the complete set of intellectual property, patents, trademarks and certain assets necessary or related to the entire Cakewalk product suite.

For users of Cakewalk from before 21st February 2018 – please refer to the original Gibson/Cakewalk announcement FAQ here.​

So prior users/owners/lifetime subscribers will probably need to buy from scratch any new version.



My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

admin

#74
BandLab also owns MONO Case and Rolling Stone Magazine.

Expect to see full page ads at RS for all
https://www.rollingstone.com/


https://blog.bandlab.com/cakewalk-press-release/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-25/billionaire-s-28-year-old-son-picks-digital-music-empire-over-palm-oil-riches


===
Cakewalk is dead. Long live Cakewalk! Says the newly formed Cakewalk.BandLab.com website. BandLab Technologies have announced that they acquired certain assets and the complete set of intellectual property of Cakewalk Inc from Gibson Brands.

As the troubled music giant looks for ways to raise cash it seemed obvious to all us commentators that selling Cakewalk to someone who cared about it would be a great way forward. At least it might have a chance of rescuing a gazillion Sonar users from a void of despair.

But who the hell are BandLab?

They are a collective of global music brands "with a vision to connect the world to music". Apparently, their flagship product "BandLab" helps millions of creators make and share their music. Cool – never heard of it! Or have I? Hang on, they released a couple of small mobile audio interfaces last year and yes, they are the developers of an online DAW that runs on everything and is completely free. Well, that sounds pretty awesome.

Other parts of the collective include Mono instrument cases, Harmony guitars and Teisco effects pedals, so it's a very interesting mix of products. They also have a very large stake in Rolling Stone magazine and Swee Lee, Asia's leading online retailer and distributor of musical instruments and pro-audio. BandLab was only formed in 2016 and operates out of Singapore.

What does it all mean for Cakewalk users? Who knows, but Cakewalk has a wealth of technology developed over many years. Will BandLab take it apart to build something new or will they take it on and support it as a product or range of products moving forward? For the moment these things are unclear. But assuming all of the Cakewalk customer base hasn't already moved on then it's a very hopeful development.

https://www.gearnews.com/cakewalk-rescued-bandlab-gibson-fire-sale/