Good news for GK 13 pin users

Started by highlandsrock, September 11, 2017, 09:29:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

highlandsrock

At the weekend (Boss 40 year anniversary in London) I had the chance of asking Yoshi Ikegami (President of Boss) if the 13 pin GK format was now dead or whether Boss were continuing to develop the line. He replied that new items would be introduced (but of course he did not reveal what they might be!). Right answer.

The new Strandberg Vguitar collaboration was also demoed by Alex Hutchings. Whilst it was very impressive it's not really where my interest lies as being a VG not a GK there is only the standard jack output. The guitar had a number of great voices and tunings but why the obsession with always including the old GR300 sounds as one of the settings. It might be a "classic" but....... Each voice had various controls assigned to different aspects, such as filter resonance, but these were preset, with no way of the user programming them. Yoshi Ikegami responded (slightly paraphrased) that musicians make music; Boss/Strandberg make the guitars ie. they know best when it comes to the guitar tones.

Boss were videoing the event so expect to see some of the footage on YouTube.
Ibanez RG870 with GT3 internal kit +
GR-33, VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, SY-1000, Strymon Big Sky

aliensporebomb

Very interesting.  I'm happy to hear that of course but we'll see what happens. 

Hutchings is a monster player - I hope his enthusiasm for 13-pin has an ear in Ikegami-san (Hutchings had multiple custom guitars made for himself with internal 13-pin circuitry).
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

I just returned from the LA Amp Show and had a good "pow wow" meeting with Jeff Slingluff (Strategic Project Manager for BOSS and Roland Guitar Products) and the whole Roland / Boss US Guitar product team.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21869.msg157707;topicseen#msg157707
I got confirmation the GK 13 pin interface is NOT dead, and future GK products are in the works

Kevin M

Quote from: Elantric on October 02, 2017, 02:05:15 PM
I just returned from the LA Amp Show and had a good "pow wow" meeting with Jeff Slingluff (Strategic Project Manager for BOSS and Roland Guitar Products) and the whole Roland / Boss US Guitar product team.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21869.msg157707;topicseen#msg157707
I got confirmation the GK 13 pin interface is NOT dead, and future GK products are in the works


Great to hear. I'd be happy with the small boxes like the GP-10 (updated version of the GP-10, or a GK version of the SY300).

Brak(E)man

I for one will test and read more about the next products before buying , in some ways both GP-10 and SY-300 are a disappointment.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

frummox

I gather he gave you no hints on exactly what they were working on? ;D

Elantric

#6
Quote from: frummox on October 03, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
I gather he gave you no hints on exactly what they were working on? ;D

Correct - no detailed info, and no target delivery date - only stated:

"Yes - Boss Japan is  working on creating new GK 13 pin systems!"

MrSparkle

Boss/Roland has always had a 2 steps forward 3 steps back thing going on.

GR-50/GR-1/GR-30 are as good as it's been for sound module playing, IMO.

GR-300 is as good as it's been for the analog engine.

VG8/88/99 each have their pros and cons.

I like the GP-10, but miss having an FX loop, and I find the switching to be compact but rather clumsy. It'd be nice to just disengage patch changing with an on-board button so I could use 4 control switches instead instead of accidentally changing patches when trying to tap tempo. It was also funny that they lumped Compression/OD/FX all together under the 1-slot umbrella, where it'd have been nice to combine a comp and od or a phaser.

So as always, I am left wanting an update despite the unit being almost there.  :P All perhaps part of their successful marketing strategy.

chrish

Quote "All perhaps part of their successful marketing strategy."

Yes. Just think about how many times Roland played off on selling a digital version of the gr 300 Metheny tone.

VG8 got it wrong, don't know about the V g88,vg99, gp10 and gr 55 have that sound. I haven't heard an Sy 300 patch that comes close yet.

And think of how many times Roland sold products where you would have assumed the pitch to midi would have been updated, yet my experience tells  me that the GR50 tracks with more accuracy than the VG 99 through the 5 pin midi din out.

Elantric

#9
Quoteyet my experience tells  me that the GR50 tracks with more accuracy than the VG 99 through the 5 pin midi din out.

And my experience shows both the GR-30, and GR-33 track faster than GR-50

Jack of all trades ( and master of none) GR-55 tracks slower . more random  than GR-33

Observe actual test data comparing GR-50 vs GR-30 vs GR-33 vs GR-55 vs VG-99 for Guitar to MIDI latency is missing
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

Rhcole

Whatever they build, you can bet the demo videos will feature smokin' metal-inlfuenced leads as their primary means of enticing customers to buy.
Maybe a root-fifth interval or two to demonstrate polyphony.

Elantric

Quote from: Rhcole on October 03, 2017, 01:43:10 PM
Whatever they build, you can bet the demo videos will feature smokin' metal-inlfuenced leads as their primary means of enticing customers to buy.
Maybe a root-fifth interval or two to demonstrate polyphony.

To be honest, bulk of the old guard Roland/Boss Metal demo squad have retired or been replaced

chrish

Quote from: Elantric on October 03, 2017, 12:50:09 PM
And my experience shows both the GR-30, and GR-33 track faster than GR-50

Jack of all trades ( and master of none) GR-55 tracks slower . more random  than GR-33

Observe actual test data comparing GR-50 vs GR-30 vs GR-33 vs GR-55 vs VG-99 for Guitar to MIDI latency is missing
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm
as long as it's reasonable, latency doesn't really bother me as much as tracking accuracy ie false triggers, harmonic triggers, octave triggers, hammer on false triggers.

Side by side in the exact same Studio conditions, the gr 50 consistently tracks with better accuracy than my VG 99 through  5 pin midi din.

Latency can be covered with attack transients from the guitar itself.

So the question is, how is the tracking accuracy of the gr 30 and the gr 33 when triggering external tone modules? I have no experience with either one of those.

Elantric

#13
Many here consider the GR-30
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=133.0

and

GR-33 to be the best Roland Guitar to MIDI systems
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=140.0

Read those areas of the forum

gumtown

The GR-55 was on the right track,
but if it had more CPU power to run 2 x HRM modelling engines (like the VG-99/VB-99),
and have power to run the effects well too (the GR-55 MOD effects seemed to run out of steam and glitch badly).

A flagship unit that has all of everything in it.

And it has to have bass mode too.  ;D
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Rhcole

A GR-55 with updated technology would be great. The closest update  today is a GP-10 with a piezo guitar and the FTP mounted for synths.

Take that concept, update it again and it could be pretty good.
IF Roland could surpass the FTP, no sure bet.

Tony Raven

Quote from: chrish on October 03, 2017, 12:00:18 PMVG8 got it wrong
I have to disagree with that fragment, at risk of taking it out-of-context. :-[ I can't speak to the marketing: what I recall of the VG-8 ad push was a sort of "this will fix everything" hype.

But is it worth having? Oh, yes.

Elantric

#17
Quote from: Tony Raven on October 03, 2017, 11:15:59 PM
I have to disagree with that fragment, at risk of taking it out-of-context. :-[ I can't speak to the marketing: what I recall of the VG-8 ad push was a sort of "this will fix everything" hype.

But is it worth having? Oh, yes.

Agree - although I would suggest the VG-8EX was the best of that era. There are many good reasons to use a 1998 VG-8EX compared to its predecessor, (1995 VG-8 with S1 upgrade)

VG-8 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11090.0

chrish

#18
Quote from: Tony Raven on October 03, 2017, 11:15:59 PM
I have to disagree with that fragment, at risk of taking it out-of-context. :-[ I can't speak to the marketing: what I recall of the VG-8 ad push was a sort of "this will fix everything" hype.

But is it worth having? Oh, yes.
I was speaking only about the vg8's ability to recreate that GR300 Metheny synth horn sound. The synth horn patches that came from the factory we're a bit on the thin side, Imo, and I never heard an improvement to the factory patch synth horn.

Totally agree with you about the vio guitar.

And when  comparing down (-octave) pitch-shifting,  the vg8 sounds better than the VG 99. I have both units.

The VG 99 does better at high pitch shifting. The Vg8 just sound so shrill sometimes.

However the VG 99 does way better at amp modeling, acoustic guitar emulations, synth and effects selection and quality.

And of course, ain't nothing like the real thing.

Hearing all the acoustic instruments playing in a symphony orchestra hall with real humans singing choir is heaven on Earth to the ears. So is listening to a real waterfall.

But that's just my ears, others results may vary.

I wonder, did Joni Mitchell use the vg8 for alternate tuning convenience or because it sounded better?




Elantric

#19
QuoteI was speaking only about the vg8's ability to recreate that GR300 Metheny synth horn sound. The synth horn patches that came from the factory we're a bit on the thin side, Imo, and I never heard an improvement to the factory patch synth horn.

Most VG-8 folks tweaked the GR-300 patch to taste - download them here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13461.0


QuoteI wonder, did Joni Mitchell use the vg8 for alternate tuning convenience or because it sounded better?


It was all about the VG-8 DSP Alt Tunings  - enabling live performance of her catalog of tunes without dragging 20 guitars in different tunings 
( half a decade before the Line-6 Variax  - (which due to poor Roland / Boss marketing) today gets all the credit

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9044.msg65076#msg65076


In 1997 Joni Mitchel would be using a Roland VG-8, and google search reveals these links
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11101.msg81035#msg81035

and Tunings
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11101.msg81035#msg81035
Here she is in a TV special from 1998 playing a Parker Guitar with GK-2A and all guitar tones are from a Roland VG-8, which (for those with vision) can be seen on the piano bench on the left in the youtube video below.
Basically a clean tone (might be the VG-8 COSM Strat tone) Remember her MAJOR attraction of using the VG-8 was for the instant access to all her alt tunings with use of the Roland VG-8 COSM modelled Alt Tunings, which was a real breakthrough at that point in time - 5 years before Line 6 had the Variax on the market.   


JONI MITCHELL LIVE 1998 "PAINTING WITH WORDS + MUSIC"

http://www.eagle-rock.com/artist/A664CC/Joni+Mitchell

Joni Mitchell, Canada's queen of folk/pop, performs before an intimate audience on the Warner's Lot in Los Angeles, in a specially set up auditorium displaying a gallery of her own paintings. Playing in the round with a small band she delivers tracks from across her career including all her best loved songs.
This astonishing performance is from the only Joni Mitchell live DVD available - "Painting With Words And Music", available now on Eagle Rock.



http://launch.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/vg-8/message/2915

The URL for Joni's tunings is:
http://www.jonimitchell.com/GuitarTunings.html


http://dunnery-guitar-school.wikispaces.com/Alternate+Tunings

--

Joni Mitchell's Guitar Tunings
Excerpted Jan 2011 from James Leahy's page:
http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/marian/jimleahy070396.htm
The following is a list of over 90 Joni Mitchell guitar songs and their
tunings (piano and dulcimer songs are not included). This list does not
claim to be 100% accurate. In a few cases, I am close to the right tuning,
but one string may be out. If you feel that I've missed a string or two,
please let me know, and I will fix it. Because of my busy workload, I am no
longer able to give chords or left-hand shapes for any songs. You're on
your own. So experiment! Have fun!
Many of Joni Mitchell's tunings are based on the traditional D and G
tunings. For example, a simple way to visualize the C tuning is to think of
it as the D tuning tuned one step lower. Joni's current favourite tuning is
called the "Canadian" tuning (the origins of this tuning are not clear) --
really just the D tuning with the D (4th) string tuned up a whole tone to E
(e.g., "Passion Play"). For other songs in this tuning, the strings are still
tuned the same in relation to each other, but a semitone or a tone lower
("Sunny Sunday", "Yvette in English"). Don't forget, Joni's voice has
lowered over the years, so songs she used to sing in D tuning, for example,
may be in C tuning for current live versions.

STANDARD TUNING:
E A D G B E:
Urge for Going
Tin Angel
Harlem in Havana


D TUNING (and variants):
D A D F# A D:
Both Sides Now (capo fourth fret)
Night in the City (capo fifth fret)
Pirate of Penance
Cactus Tree (capo fourth fret)
That Song About the Midway (capo 2nd fret)
Chelsea Morning (capo 2nd fret)
Conversation (capo 4th fret)
Big Yellow Taxi (capo 2nd fret)
You Turn Me On (I'm a Radio)
People's Parties
A Strange Boy
A Bird That Whistles (Corrina, Corrina)


D MODAL:
D A D E A D:
I Had a King (capo 7th fret)

D A C F# A D:
Barangrill (capo 1st fret)

D A D F# G D:
The Sire of Sorrow

D G D D A D:
The Dawntreader

D A D G A E (capo 5th fret):
The Priest Song


C TUNING (and variants):
C G C E G C:
Raised on Robbery
Amelia
The Three Great Stimulants (95 live version)


B TUNING (and variants):
B F# D# D# F# B
How Do You Stop?
Turbulent Indigo
Borderline

B F# D# F# B D#
Songs to Aging Children Come

B F# B B F# B
Song to a Seagull



CANADIAN TUNING (and variants):
D A E F# A D:
Love (capo 2nd fret)
Passion Play
Cherokee Louise

C# G# D# E# G# C#:
Sunny Sunday

C G D E G C :
God Must Be a Boogie Man
Night Ride Home
Yvette in English
Love Puts on a New Face (Love Has Many Faces)
Love's Cries
HEJIRA TUNING (and variants):


B F# C# G# F# B:
Hejira

C G D F G C:
My Secret Place
Number One
Cool Water

D A E G A D:
In France They Kiss on Main Street (capo 2nd fret)
Slouching Toward Bethlehem
The Only Joy in Town
G TUNING (and variants):

D G D G B D:
The Circle Game (capo 4th fret)
Little Green (capo 4th fret)
Marcie
Nathan La Franeer
Roses Blue
Morning Morgantown (capo 2nd fret)
Underneath the Streetlight (capo 2nd fret)

D A D G B D:
Help Me
Free Man in Paris

C G D G B D:
Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire
Trouble Child
Don't Interrupt the Sorrow
Sweet Bird

G G D G B D (6th and 5th strings an octave apart):
For the Roses (capo 3rd fret)
Electricity (capo 3rd fret)
This Flight Tonight
Hunter (The Good Samaritan)



F# TUNING:
C# F# C# F# A# C#:
The Gallery
F TUNING (and variants):

Bb F C F A C:
Otis and Marlena

C F C G A C
I Don't Know Where I Stand

C A C F A C
Refuge of the Roads

C A C F G C
Silky Veils of Ardour

C G D F A C
Blue Motel Room


NORTH CAROLINA TUNING:
E E B F# G# B (capo first fret, or F F C G A C)
Michael from Mountains


CALIFORNIA KITCHEN TUNING:
C G D F C E
Sisotowbell Lane (capo 2nd fret)
Ladies of the Canyon (capo 2nd fret)
Woman of Heart and Mind
Just Like This Train
Shadows and Light (mid-70s live version)
Coyote
Don Juan's Reckless Daughter

C G D G C E:
Happiness Is the Best Facelift


EDITH'S TUNING:
D A E G C E:
Jericho
Edith and the Kingpin

D A E G C D:
Talk to Me

C G D F Bb D:
Furry Sings the Blues
Harry's House/Centerpiece


MISCELLANEOUS TUNINGS:
C G Bb Eb F Bb:
Woodstock ('79 and '83 tours)
Moon at the Window
Sex Kills

C G Eb F Bb D:
The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey

B F# B E A E :
Magdalene Laundries

D A C E G A:
Song for Sharon

A A E G C E:
The Windfall (Everything for Nothing)

Db F Db F Ab Db:
Come in from the Cold

D A C G A D:
Ray's Dad's Cadillac

Bb F Db Eb Ab C:
Last Chance Lost

Bb Bb Db F Ab Bb (fifth and sixth strings an octave apart):
Black Crow

Brak(E)man

Quote from: chrish on October 03, 2017, 12:00:18 PM
..Just think about how many times Roland played off on selling a digital version of the gr 300 Metheny tone.
VG8 got it wrong, don't know about the V g88,vg99, gp10 and gr 55 have that sound. I haven't heard an Sy 300 patch that comes close yet.
...

This patch in this song is close but hold its own.
The SY-300 shines ( no polyphony )

https://brakophonic.bandcamp.com/track/good-bye
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Headless68

This sounds very interesting indeed -
Given we have the 'simplified' version already (GP10) are we finally going to see a true VG99 successor ?
Hmmmmmm
:-)

( . )( . )

I know it'll never happen, but I'd love a paring of a Katana with Gp-10 instrument modeling and a frfr enclosure or extension cab and a truely dedicated beefed up foot controller.

chrish

#23
Quote from: Brak(E)man on October 07, 2017, 09:52:32 AM
This patch in this song is close but hold its own.
The SY-300 shines ( no polyphony )

https://brakophonic.bandcamp.com/track/good-bye
yes that's a pretty good trumpety tone especially in the high register. It does have that GR 300 thick attack.

I can't get the sy300 or VG 99 GR300 to produce that attack.

And the vg 99 GR300 that I have kind of breaks up into digital noise.


Brak(E)man


Quote from: chrish on October 07, 2017, 03:31:24 PM
 yes that's a pretty good trumpety tone especially in the high register. It does have that GR 300 thick attack.

I can't get the sy300 or VG 99 GR300 to produce that attack.

And the vg 99 GR300 that I have kind of breaks up into digital noise.

I don't remember if I posted the patch , it was one of the first I made with the SY300, but as we know
It's dependant on the guitar, the input settings levels and compression, and not playing chords or intervalls different than octaves or fifths.

The VG 99 has a good tone and mine doesn't break up into noise but the attack is so slow it's not
very playable unless playing legato, and I'm mostly a picker. The GP-10 is better but the tone is not as good as VG 99 nor the original of course.

I'm going to dig out some of my synth patches on the VG 8 there's more to that unit than the vio guitar.
I have some synth patches , acoustic patches , Strat emulations and 4&5 tuned guitar pads that sounds brill.

I wish that Roland would make a SY with hex , the concept is fantastic IMHO but very limited without the hex. See https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20024.0

And I'd love to see vio & some of the other synths from 8 , the wave synth and sitar from 88 , the complexity and hands on approach from the 99 like the knobs , airbeam , ribbon and the size from GP.

and if it's possible PCM tones triggered like the SY and with serial 13 pin connectors like Spicetone with or without processed sound.

All in the same box of course   :D

But my prediction is dumb down versions of GR55 and maybe GP-10




swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch