Cycfi Hex PU Examples

Started by chlorinemist, May 17, 2017, 09:22:14 PM

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chlorinemist

Quote from: jodama on May 17, 2017, 08:00:09 AM
I friggin love the mono channel distortion tone. It has this beautiful "round" sounding attack that I'm really hoping to recreate on the hex channels. They have their own (also awesome) sound that's a bit different. The attack is flatter or more "twangy" no matter which driver I use. This is why I'm looking into Cycfi...I was hoping it would have the same tone across mono and hex channels. Does it?

Using the mono Cycfi pickup (XR) and a Nu side-by-side, they are definitely very close tone-wise, though there is some variation.

Their frequency response charts are near identical:


(XR)

(Nu)

Full range, flat response. Some pickups with this description, like the Lace Alumtones, have been labeled pejoratively as "sterile" and lacking character. I have an alumitone loaded strat myself and I actually agree with the description in that case. But the Cycfi pickups are much different. I'd describe the tone with words more like "strong" and "full"...

As for the differences: Cycfi originally aimed to build the Nus with the exact same XR sidewinder tech but found the crosstalk specs unacceptable. The design they settled on has a narrower aperture than the XR pickups, which results in a sound with a bit more bite and attack in the transients, and overall somewhat more "single coil" sounding. I had an XR in the bridge position before I got the Nu and I find that I majorly prefer the Nu's tone for the bridge pos over the XR. When my Jag had two XRs, I mostly stuck to using the neck pickup and only enabled the bridge XR when I wanted a little extra treble.
With my new XR-Nu configuration, I find myself liking the bridge pickup tone much more and using it by itself pretty often (regardless of whether I'm utilizing it's hex applications), which I never did with my bridge XR.

Also, regarding your issues getting decent tone with GK and Piezos, I just want to throw it out there that I've absolutely never once plugged my Nu into my 6Appeal and been anything less than delighted with the tone. On the contrary, I find it hard to imagine improving upon the tone this setup achieves... I really love it

chlorinemist

Quote from: jodama on May 17, 2017, 08:00:09 AM
I friggin love the mono channel distortion tone. It has this beautiful "round" sounding attack that I'm really hoping to recreate on the hex channels. They have their own (also awesome) sound that's a bit different. The attack is flatter or more "twangy" no matter which driver I use. This is why I'm looking into Cycfi...I was hoping it would have the same tone across mono and hex channels. Does it?

I actually installed a GK-3 (after previously only using piezo pickups) just to see if I could get that tone, but it seems to do a worse job at it than the piezos. Again, these are also great sounds...just different. I've spent a lot of time tweaking the filter and tone knob, but I haven't been able to dial it in quite right.

Lol, sorry. Re-reading your question I realize you're asking if the Nus will sound more like traditional monophonic pickups, as opposed to the "different" sound you are experiencing with the GKs and Piezos. I'd say the answer is most definitely yes.

Unlike piezos or the GKs, fundamentally these pickups are constructed based on the same design and construction principles as your standard active humbucking pickups. They sound distinctly like real guitar pickups (albeit really amazing ones), because they 100% actually are.

However, the Cycfi pickups in general are certainly different from normal guitar pickups in the sense that they have MUCH wider freq range, and there are no dips or bumps anywhere in the response whatsoever. The flat response + lack of any inherent freq cutoff (most guitar PUs cutoff around 4-5Khz), you can use the resonant LPF on the 6Appeal to easily sculpt virtually any kind of the freq response you might want. You can use it to tame the Nus high end and adjust the resonance to create an eq bump to achieve a more traditional pickup sound. Personally though I love cranking the resonance way up and setting the cutoff really high for a huge sparkling high end. Assigning the filter cutoff to an expression pedal with cranked resonance results in breathtakingly synth like sweeps. I've been doing that constantly since I first tried it. I should post a clip...

GuitarBuilder

Quote from:  chlorinemist on May 18, 2017, 12:36:25 AM
What I think is really needed is a digital counterpart. Something that can do advanced pitch fx hexaphonically with a 13 pin out that passes on all 7 processed signals, to do all the effects that really need to be done before distortion (pickup modeling, tuning shifts, etc) and then feed that to the 6Appeal.

I came to the same conclusion about a year ago and have been bugging Antares to produce a hex output ATG for some time now.  Perhaps you wouldn't mind joining the cause?  I made the suggestion on the Autotune for Guitar forum and directly to Henrik at Antares.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

whippinpost91850

I have sent Antares  emails as well.

admin

#4
Or buy a Boss GP-10 for its GK 13 pin 6 channel analog input > 6 channel USB To fast computer for real time 6 channel VSTi/AU processing >6 Channel  USB output to GP-10 stereo mixer to > GP-10 stereo analog output

See "Re-Guitar" signal flow on the right


chrish

#5
Quote from:  admsustainiac on May 18, 2017, 07:12:44 AM
Or buy a Boss GP-10 for its GK 13 pin 6 channel analog input > 6 channel USB To fast computer for real time 6 channel VSTi/AU processing >6 Channel  USB output to GP-10 stereo mixer to > GP-10 stereo analog output

See "Re-Guitar" signal flow on the right


for me it boils down to the question of whether I want to support Roland digital gear that comes complete with pitch shift warbles and no 5 pin midi or;

Do I want to support a company who is developing hex analogue products.

And let's not forget that Roland abandoned their 13 pin hex technology  when  they designed the boss sy-300. Now I like the sy300 however it could have been a monster guitar synthesizer with both quarter inch and 13 pin hex input.

Consumers hold the power on what products are developed and brought to Market although Roland has maybe forgotten that. I'm done buying products that Roland wants to cram down our throats with flashy marketing techniques.

admin

That's a lot of wrong information IMHO

chrish

Quote from:  admsustainiac on May 18, 2017, 09:26:34 AM
That's a lot of wrong information IMHO
could you be more specific?

admin

#8
QuoteRoland abandoned their 13 pin hex technology

Wrong - 2017 Roland / Boss   -  several GK 13 pin products remain  "active" and in production and still sell well to this day (May 2017 )

Roland GR-55 (still the #1 reason new members state when joining VGuitarForums today) 
Boss GP-10
Roland US-20 A/B Y 13 pin selector
GK-3 external Guitar PU 
GK-KIT-GT3  Internal PU 
GK-3B external bass PU
QuoteRoland digital gear {Boss GP-10) that comes complete with pitch shift warbles

Only true for some guitars  - not all

I have no issues with my Boss GP-10 

and just because Boss released the SY-300 does NOT translate into Roland abandoning hex pickups or the GK-13 pin technology

rather like saying "Since the release of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt Electric automobile, Chevrolet have now abandoned all internal combustion engine technology"





GuitarBuilder

Quote from:  admsustainiac on May 18, 2017, 07:12:44 AM
Or buy a Boss GP-10 for its GK 13 pin 6 channel analog input > 6 channel USB To fast computer for real time 6 channel VSTi/AU processing >6 Channel  USB output to GP-10 stereo mixer to > GP-10 stereo analog output

See "Re-Guitar" signal flow on the right



Yes, that would work - sort of.  My primary wish is to stay away from computers and process the hex signals on a pedal board.  I own several ATG guitars and a GP-10; for my taste the ATG alternate tunings outperform the GP-10 by a long shot.  The ATG models are quite good as well.

In a recording studio environment the GP-10 offers an alternative through USB.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

#10
Quote from:  admsustainiac on May 18, 2017, 10:31:53 AM
Wrong - 2017 Roland / Boss   -  several GK 13 pin products remain  "active" and in production and still sell well to this day (May 2017 )

Roland GR-55 (still the #1 reason new members state when joining VGuitarForums today) 
Boss GP-10
Roland US-20 A/B Y 13 pin selector
GK-3 external Guitar PU 
GK-KIT-GT3  Internal PU 
GK-3B external bass PU
Only true for some guitars  - not all

I have no issues with my Boss GP-10 

and just because Boss released the SY-300 does NOT translate into Roland abandoning hex pickups or the GK-13 pin technology

rather like saying "Since the release of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt Electric automobile, Chevrolet have now abandoned all internal combustion engine technology"
okay so your post was predicated on the fact that either I wasn't clear based upon word choice and or sentence structure, or you misinterpreted what I wrote.

However you did just misquote me by not including the entire quote.

This is what I wrote:
And let's not forget that Roland abandoned their 13 pin hex technology  when  they designed the boss sy-300.

This is how you quoted me and possibly how you interpreted what I wrote.

"Roland abandoned their 13 pin hex technology".

My statement simply means that when Roland designed the boss Sy 300 they did not include the 13 pin hex input, which is a fact.

It would not be possible for me to know if Roland has given up completely on including 13 pin hex pickup inputs on future products.

se·man·tics
səˈman(t)iks/
noun
the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.
the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.
plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

chlorinemist

Quote from:  admsustainiac on May 18, 2017, 07:12:44 AM
Or buy a Boss GP-10 for its GK 13 pin 6 channel analog input > 6 channel USB To fast computer for real time 6 channel VSTi/AU processing >6 Channel  USB output to GP-10 stereo mixer to > GP-10 stereo analog output

See "Re-Guitar" signal flow on the right



Would this actually work? I was looking into this recently and was informed that it wasn't actually possible to get 6 processed outputs via the GP-10, even with an audio interface with the appropriate I/O. Specifically, I was told the following:

"The GP-10 doesn't do what you want since it will mix the internal string signals after pitch shifting to a combined stream. The individual string digital outs over the USB interface are unprocessed."

Is this inaccurate?

jodama

Quote from:  chlorinemist on May 17, 2017, 10:13:37 PM
Unlike piezos or the GKs, fundamentally these pickups are constructed based on the same design and construction principles as your standard active humbucking pickups. They sound distinctly like real guitar pickups (albeit really amazing ones), because they 100% actually are.

You're selling me on these things. Not to take this thread too far off topic, but I just checked the Cycfi website, and the Nus are sold out. Do they restock frequently? I'm hoping I didn't miss the boat.

Also, can their hex pickups easily fit in a humbucker space?

chlorinemist

Quote from:  jodama on May 19, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
You're selling me on these things. Not to take this thread too far off topic, but I just checked the Cycfi website, and the Nus are sold out. Do they restock frequently? I'm hoping I didn't miss the boat.

Send them an email. They have excellent customer service. The store was out of stock when I first wanted to buy a Nu as well. I emailed them, they said the new batch would be done in two months, and they put me on a list to reserve one.
You definitely didn't miss the boat. The Nus are fundamental to Cycfi's long term master plan to develop the extremely ambitious "Infinity" system. They won't be going out of production anytime soon.

QuoteAlso, can their hex pickups easily fit in a humbucker space?

The regular Nu assembly is single coil sized, but Cycfi has some extremely cool options for filling a humbucker space:


Nu-XR Combo
http://www.cycfi.com/2017/03/brothers-in-arms-nu-xr-combo/


Double Nu
http://www.cycfi.com/2016/03/meet-cadbury/

GuitarBuilder

Quote from:  jodama on May 19, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
You're selling me on these things. Not to take this thread too far off topic, but I just checked the Cycfi website, and the Nus are sold out. Do they restock frequently? I'm hoping I didn't miss the boat.

Also, can their hex pickups easily fit in a humbucker space?

Here's my current build:


Nu plus XR Dual Flex passive pickups in bridge position.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

#15
Quote from:  GuitarBuilder on May 19, 2017, 01:39:16 PM
Here's my current build:


Nu plus XR Dual Flex passive pickups in bridge position.

Too bad all Cycfi NuPlus divided pickups are currently sold out and not available at the moment
https://www.cycfi-research.com/product/nu-multi-basic-set/


chlorinemist

Quote from:  Elantric on May 19, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
Too bad all Cycfi NuPlus divided pickups are currently sold out and not available at the moment
https://www.cycfi-research.com/product/nu-multi-basic-set/



You seem to have a cynical attitude towards Cycfi. Curious why? Apologies in advance if I'm misreading you.

They restock with a new batch every couple months. If you send them an email you can make a reservation and they'll let you know when the next batch comes in. They respond very promptly, great customer service.

Elantric

#17
I was just checking on them , but they are always out of stock when I visit their site

And I'm in the camp that considers hex mag divided pickups placed further than 30 mm away from the bridge negatively impact the COSM modeling tones and will have higher crosstalk when string bending  ( which I do a lot)
And I'm not a fan of active pickups ( sonic Tone and power management )

For my main meat & potatoes guitar Tone I still prefer old passive pickup technology

But I encourage others to explore

chlorinemist

#18
Quote from:  Elantric on May 20, 2017, 02:45:28 AM
I was just checking on them , but they are always out of stock when I visit their site

And I'm in the camp that considers hex mag divided pickups placed further than 30 mm away from the bridge negatively impact the COSM modeling tones and will have higher crosstalk when string bending  ( which I do a lot)
And I'm not a fan of active pickups ( sonic Tone and power management )

For my main meat & potatoes guitar Tone I still prefer old passive pickup technology

But I encourage others to explore

It may well be true that they are not ideal for cosm but that is not an oversight, but rather a conscious choice. Joel developed the Nus as a foundation for his own full fledged guitar synthesis platform that utilizes processing concepts much like Roland's HRM technology, but implemented in a way that avoids many of the pitfalls ive experienced with Roland's 13 pin tech. He is actually a software engineer primarily and has been developing this hardware in order to create a platform appropriate for his grander polyphonic processing vision (the "Infinity" system). So I think it's a bit unfair to discredit them for not focusing on roland compatibility.
As for active vs passive, obviously it's all a matter of opinion. i MASSIVELY prefer active pickups. Ubertar seems a good option for the passive purists

Elantric

#19
Still prefer a well setup GK-3 for my 13 pin needs - it works for me

Our individual goals in pursuit of expanding sounds of the guitar may be very different, I find that to be a global constant and healthy for expanding collective knowledge which is the agenda of this forum

chrish

#20
Quote from:  Elantric on May 20, 2017, 08:08:57 AM
Still prefer a well setup GK-3 for my 13 pin needs - it works for me

Our individual goals in pursuit of expanding sounds of the guitar may be very different, I find that to be a global constant and healthy for expanding collective knowledge which is the agenda of this forum
expanding Collective knowledge is one goal of mankind, or maybe that just happens organically.

When I finally got around to purchasing a VG 99 I thought that it would be cool if our electronic design engineers could design an analogue version of the VG 99 without the guitar models .

I don't really need the guitar models because I'm not trying to cop the tone that previous artists have put their recordings. You don't need a Carlos Santana tone to play samba pa ti.

If I need a nylon string guitar tone  I reach for my nylon string guitar .

A guitarist can develop their own tone given the right tools. And the spicetone 6appeal seems to be the right tool.

After watching a lot of demos this spicetone product seems to be pretty close to a Roland gr 100 but on steroids with lots of possibilities for integration with modular synthesis.

For example the designers have allowed for using a envelope slope via MIDI, if I'm understanding the literature correctly, but why not just pass audio out signal into a modular synth adsr and other modules like different filters. In my opinion spicetone should add some CV ins and outs and maybe even consider making a eurorack version of their products to expand their Market.

I'm fairly excited about these Innovative companies that are catering to what artists want as their tools. They do however need our support.

I've always mixed analogue signals in with my digital gear however digital gear is starting to add up in my studio and after a while you notice it lacks whatever it is that gives analogue equipment it's magic.

chlorinemist

made a little clip demonstrating some of the sounds I can achieve with my Cycfi pickups and the 6Appeal. Starts dry, and I stack different FX throughout. The chain is as follows:

Spicetone 6Appeal -> EHX Pitch Fork -> RT Electronix Three Way (Tri-Stereo Chorus clone) -> Eventide H8000FW ("Dimension D" preset) -> H8000FW ("Angel Echoes") -> Sonic Farm Creamer+ preamp -> Lexicon PCM80 ("Concert Hall")

Here's the link: https://soundcloud.com/chlorinemist/sketch-52517/s-ozOZq

100% guitar + fx, no synthesizers. The synth-like resonant filter sweeps you hear towards the second half of the clip is the sound of me controlling the low-pass filter cutoff on the 6Appeal with an expression pedal.

I'll make another demonstrating the envelope controls, lfos and step sequencer sometime soon

chrish

Thanks for posting that demo and look forward to more. At 1.21 in your sketch, I'm hearing elements of a tone that I've been trying to duplicate. Do you remember what techniques or FX you were using at that point?

chlorinemist

#23
Quote from:  chrish on May 25, 2017, 08:27:55 AM
Thanks for posting that demo and look forward to more. At 1.21 in your sketch, I'm hearing elements of a tone that I've been trying to duplicate. Do you remember what techniques or FX you were using at that point?

By that point the PCM80 reverb and Threeway Chorus are already engaged. Somewhere around this point I switch on the 6Appeal's resonant filter, and set a pretty high cutoff with resonance at ~60%. I have parallel chains going. The strings are panned, alternating left and right.  Stereo outs go to a volume pedal and then straight to the H8K.
The mono out goes through my mono fx chain. The Threeway (all other mono fx are bypassed. I add harmonic 5ths with the pitch fork a little later) stereo outputs feed my second volume pedal, which in turns feeds 2 more channels on H8K.

Around 1.15ish is when I switch on the H8000, engaging the "Angel Echoes + Stereo Plate" preset at 80% wet on the signal from the 6Appeal stereo outs, and the Dimension D preset at 50% on the signal coming from the Threeway Chorus.

Then i start messing with the cutoff expression pedal,, maybe 30 seconds later I engage the pitch fork. then I turned up the distortion on the 6Appeal ("Crunch" circuit) and shredded away

chrish

Quote from: chlorinemist on May 25, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
By that point the PCM80 reverb and Threeway Chorus are already engaged. Somewhere around this point I switch on the 6Appeal's resonant filter, and set a pretty high cutoff with resonance at ~60%. I have parallel chains going. The stereo outs from 6Appeal are my "dry"/clean path. The strings are panned, alternating left and right.  Stereo outs go to a volume pedal and then straight to the H8K.
The mono out goes through my mono fx chain. The Threeway (all other mono fx are bypassed. I add harmonic 5ths with the pitch fork a little later) stereo outputs feed my second volume pedal, which in turns feeds 2 more channels on H8K.

Around 1.15ish is when I switch on the H8000, engaging the "Angel Echoes + Stereo Plate" preset at 80% wet on the signal from the 6Appeal stereo outs, and the Dimension D preset at 50% on the signal coming from the Threeway Chorus.

Then i start messing with the cutoff expression pedal,, maybe 30 seconds later I engage the pitch fork. then I turned up the distortion on the 6Appeal ("Crunch" circuit) and shredded away
thanks for the production notes. I see what you mean when you say the 6appeal can have a super saw wave sound. Lots of clarity in that Distortion if that makes sense.

It would be cool to see some of the 6appeal waveforms on an oscilloscope.