Still trying to get basic questions answered about loopers and live setup !!

Started by BobbyD, May 02, 2016, 04:32:12 PM

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BobbyD

Hello Friends,

I have been on a search to build a new rig  live since I joined this forum.  Prior to joining forum I had ZERO Gear even though I have been playing almost 40 years. I was in a horrific accident at end of 2012  that left me fully disabled and the ONLY reason I am playing guitar was I had a traumatic brain injury and my neurolgists asked me what hopbbies I used to have and when I said guitar and chess, that was all they needed to hear.  I have played over 2000 games on chess.com but more importantly, I fell in love witht eh guitar and have bececome more passionate about music since the day I picked up guitar when I was 14 or 15 years old.   In 2008 an dI  sold my home studio, , all my guitars, my CDs and swore off  of music forever not ever planning on playing or gigging again.  That's all changed.

The first part of my need for help is picking out the right portable PA.  I was checking out the Bose L1 [url=http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB] [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB] [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1Compact?adpos=1o1&creative=87424057801&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw9Zu5BRCS_OuVibujhQ0SJAD7t4KryZYAMHK32GRq4ywcKI3VHXZ12GZLRZPsqUYaCzMRHBoCdzXw_wcB[/url]  and also the big brother which is $2000 more money but this is something I will have for life and not one of those purchases that I will regret. The big brother is [url=http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1] [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1] [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1[/url].  y fisrt question is am I better getting two of the smaller untis for stereo or one larger more powerful unit?

My other question is if this is the best PA for the money and am I better off going with a single high powered unit than to spend the money ands purchase two lower powered units like the new JBL EON One which becomes available for sale this month and was something my Sweetwater rep wanted me to check out.  [url=http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne]  [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne]  [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne[/url]

The next big question which gives me more angst than anyone could imagine is just purchasing the best effects needed make my duet gig sound as professional as possible. 

Here is the setup so far:

I am going to be playing a Taylor T5Z as my main axe and will probably add a Fishman Triple play (FTP) external MIDI pickup on the guitar. I have two Godin guitars with built in FTP but I fell on love playing the Taylor.

I know the Bose PA has an interface called Tone match which is 6 inputs for mic and guitar and provides professional effects like reverb & chorus and also matches up the vocal mic you are using with an algorithm based on mics chayrcterisiscs.  This is where the confusion starts.

1,) first question is what is best looper for this type of setup knowing that the other musician in the band is a key board player that understands MIDI and likes technology so she will be comfortable using any gear we pickup.  Thing is I do not want to waste a penny buyinf something not needed but would spend $1000 if you said this piece of gear is a must for the situation you are describing right now in this thread

I realizer I will need some basic pedals like some type of overdrive which I have (xotic bb pre amp, xotic boast, xotic overdrive, compressor and wah wah.) I also have two phares or evnvelope filters which is the Keely Nutrino and the Pigtronics phaser which alows you to use expression pedal for more dynmaic playing. I do have their duel expression pedal that allows you to control to different parameters with a single pedal.

The ONLY pedal I purcahsed which is a 100% keeper is the Octron octave box by Foxrox electronics.   This pedal kicks some seriousbecause I am tied of posting and just want to get out and have fun.

I also need to mention I have a fender 68 Deluxe Reverb which is a 22 watt amp.

I just can not figure the out howe I would add the Fishman Triple Play's output from my Imac laptop into the the gig. I do not understand how that could be used with a looper so let's say I wanted to add  a flute sounding solo so the loppers tracks.  I just can not figure out the routing and how it works. I also want to understand  how to have a looper that both me and the singer can use so she can add harmonies to her vocals. I know some loopers have two inputs so I am thinking this is doable option. As I mentioned, even though the Bose PA comes with the optional Tone match interface, which has effects built in, I was told  is there a TC Helcion makes a piece of gear piece of gear that would seem ideal for this type of setup which is basically a duet with me playing guitar and background vocals and singer playing keys and lead vocals.

There are a lot more questions I do have but will wait until I at least get the PA purchased knowing I made the best possible decision with the help from everyone on this forum, I can than concentrate on adding whatever additional gear that everyone tnows it will be very useful understanding I completely get that gear does NOT make a duet sound good. The most important thing is the  musicianship of the players.   But I do know that once the underlying talent is there,  gear can become a cool tool to  give the musician a few cool options that are not always found in the fingers.

I am disabled at age of 53 and music is the only thing that has kept me from losing my mind after my accident.  I was ready to end a temporary problem with a permanent solution which I hope some of you can read through the lines at what I mean and is reason I spent 9 days at a psychiatric hospital. I am not embarrassed to admit that  all because maybe by sharing that, someone else on this forum suffering with depression knows that this is a temporary situation and things will get better if you give it time.  Anyone who has any questions about depression and what I needed to do to get better, please do not hesitate to PM me as I take this very seriously and will do whatever I can to help you.  I know how  to prioritize my life and helping a suffering person is much more important then my next piece of gear.

Assuming everyone is healthy & happy, please feel free to recommend any gear based on the above.

One last thing. I want to be able to add percussion to my live sets.  Ever though I have Ableton & Push, I want to add a roland portable percussion piece of gear like the Handsonic 20 http://www.roland.com/products/handsonic_hpd-20/ or a http://www.roland.com/products/octapad_spd-30/  and have no experience with either unit. Any feedback most welcomed.

Thanks for reading this long thread. 

God Bless

BobbyD

Now_And_Then


HecticArt

BobbyD, congrats on the renewed passion for music, and for your fight to overcome such massive challenges.

I had a couple of very close friends that didn't win their battles with depression.  It's good to hear that you're working through it. Best of luck.

I've only used the Fender Passport PA's, so I'm not the best to comment on your equipment questions, but the other things you shared were worth a reply.



Brak(E)man

I can give you an answer about Bose
It's hard to get a good stereo sound
since the speakers are designed to spread the sound
almost equal throughout the room.
I've tried to use two L1s but they have to be so far apart
To get a noticeable stereo sound it's not poss on most stages
I always play in stereo except when using the Bose
That said it has a great sound and can be used as a PA and a monitor system
At the same time , but if you want " true stereo" then look elsewhere
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

The looper q is a bit more complex , but for starters , you can route anything from guitar, keyboard , voice, laptop , through a mixer using aux send return, you'd need a sound card for the laptop and a small external mixer ( there's also sound cards that can do both ) as for what kind of looper it all depends on how you are going to use it.
It'd recommend a look at boss RC 505
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

GovernorSilver

Welcome to the forum, BobbyD!

Can't imagine what it would be like to experience and recover from traumatic brain injury!   :o

I second the suggestion to get a mixer and put the looper in the mixer send bus.

As for PA, I would suggest a powered speaker instead of the Bose L1 - two if you want stereo.  Pat Metheny got a good sound out of 4 Bose L1 units in Strathmore Theater (DC/MD area) after the house PA broke down, for his Orchestrion show.  But he had an army of roadies/technicians to get everything quickly set up just right.  Something like an Electro-Voice ZXA1 or QSC K-series.


scratch17

Try the Line 6 powered speaker line. I use a pair of L2M speakers with a Mackie Onyx 1640 to amplify my VG-99 and KPA. I can get a really decent stereo image. Line 6 also has powered speaker models with built in mixers in the same line as the L2M's. And inputs have DSP that emulates guitar speakers, keyboard amps, etc. There is even a subwoofer available.

I agree with Now_And_Then. Start with your simplest possible rig. Then add one piece at a time.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

BobbyD

Hello Friends,

I do not have the experience to be able to compare the different functionality of the different loopers on the market so this is my very last attempt to get what I thought was an easy question to answer. I am going to explain my live setup so this helps some of you understand what I am trying to achieve and you will know exactly the equipment I need to purchase. This has been the most difficult part of getting back into playing....GEAR!!!   I have spent probably the last 5 months playing nothing but analog guitar and learning cover songs so I can just get out an gig. I was bed ridden for almost 2 years so this is a major accomplishment for me to be able to get back on my feet after my accident.  So I truly hope someone will get the vibe of what I want to achieve and tell me exactly what you would purchase putting money aside for a minute. I am no wealthy by any stretch  of the imagination and been using my monthly disability checks to buy gear.  I am very close to having my live gig setup and thank everyone who can answer the following few questions that may seem simple, but boggle my mind.

PA system.  I was looking at the Bose L2 system with Tone match interface and B2 sub.http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/L1m2B2T1 It is very pricy but I always invest in quality and not sure if this is the way to go for a powerful compact PA. I know JBL just announced their Eon One which lists for $999 and my Sweetwater rep  said he sat in on the shootout they had recently between the Bose, JBL and a third brand and said the JBls sounded awfully nice. Two of them would cost less than the single Bose system. So a bit confused at this moment. I know the single Bose system has a higher power rating so that accounts for the big difference in price along with the tone match interface.    Because this is going to be used for a solo or duet type of gig, I am sure a single one of these units are perfect for a duet, yet I still read about people purchasing two of the Bose systems.   Here is a link of the new JBL which will be out end of May.http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne] [url]http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EONOne[/url]

1.) First question is if I am better off buying a single Bose L 11 with the highest wattage versus two of the lower powered Bose models or the new  the JBLs?   

2.) My singer is technically proficient with MIDI and plays keys so does it make sense for her to have her own Bose system for her vocals and keys and me to have one for guitar and backing vocals?. Or again, does a single high watt system work well for a duet?

3.)  Is there a TC Helicon  piece of gear that would add a nice touch to the vocals for both of us as well as my acoustic/electric guitar which is a Taylor T5Z.  I have decided to use that as my main gigging guitar and will need to add an external fishman triple play pickup to the guitar. 

4. Is there a looper that is made specifically for a situation where both the guitarists wants to add loops and the singer wants to add vocal harmonies loops. So she would have to be able to play  her mic through looper.  THIS IS WHERE CONFUSION STARTS!!

5.) How would I be able to add the output of my laptop to the setup so I could play loops using sounds from my FTP and  soft synths from laptop.  I can see that going into another input on PA, but how does output from laptop  get into looper? .  I do not understand the configuration of how this would work.  Same question as far as adding vocal loops and harmonies.  I am trying to understand the signal flow which has me puzzled.

I have a lot more questions, but these are the very basics questions  I would love to have answered because i really do not get  what many of you would consider a basic setup.. Music we are doing is going to be made of of two separate sets.  The Wine Bar scene doing songs like Georgia on my Mind and other mellow songs with beautiful melodies.   Gig 2 is the bar scene where we are going to play heavier and do songs from Joe Bonamassa, Henrix, ZZ top etc. 

Thanks to anyone who can please explain the huge gap in my knowledge.

God Bless


Brak(E)man

1 . It depends on whether or you want stereo or not
2. If you decide not to go stereo , yes she should have her own
In other case you most likely need a pair of monitors as well
3 I'm not sure about that specific fx but in either case you most likely need
A mixer with aux send and return to feed the fx with 2 voices and the guitar
4 yes boss RC 505 can handle and loop 1 mic in 1 stereo line in 1 stereo aux in and loop the all
, the looper have 5 "tracks" that can be overdubbed infinite individually
5. You would need an sound card for the laptop, depending on your needs theres all kind regarding functions channels etc, and you most likely need
A mixer with aux send and return
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch