Center Point Stereo Space Station V3 / XL

Started by carlb, October 10, 2008, 08:30:49 PM

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Shingles

Quote from:  Smash on February 09, 2017, 01:03:24 AM

Panning hard right diminished the main centre drastically - ... quietening due to phase reversal.


That's the badger.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Smash

Totally agree on the cross over issue. I'll be using a cheap crossover with the LD88 and to bleed off the low end before the signal gets to the CPS.

It's just the Denon is a sledge hammer to crack a walnut whereas the LD is a bit more portable and so much more liable to get used out and about.

If anyone wants a mint Denon Axis 12S for £250....

Shingles

Quote from:  Smash on February 10, 2017, 02:10:04 AM


If anyone wants a mint Denon Axis 12S for £250....

Tempting, but the Behringer B1200d is small and lighter and reportedly goes well with the SS.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Smash

I had a Behringer briefly before the Denon - sadly didn't work so sent it back to Amazon. Build quality is a world apart with the Denon and it would kick the Behringer out the door and down the street in terms of SPL but in reality, they're both well and truly overkill for the CPS!

I ran the two together last night with may Vax acoustic, FTP into ipad running Sampletank and iM1 plus Tonestack. Ludicrous amount of tone/sound from that package - you know when you just keep playing because it sounds so good, you can't help it.

Heartily recommend the Blue phaser Electric piano on Sampletank mixed with the Soniksynth Suitcase Chorus EP - shows of the CPS effect brilliantly. Funny thing is on the gig we did last week we played Peter Greens Need your love so bad and I was playing solely that combo of electric pianos via the Vax acoustic and no one batted an eyelid! Even a bloody electric piano break - no reaction! I was like - does no one realise what's actually happening here, lol!

Smash

The LD88A sub has arrived  - lightweight, compact and perfect punch partner for the CPS

This will definitely go out with me. It's the perfect sub for the CPS. the only drawback is the sub out on the CPS is low output so ideally the sub needs a different feed but using a cheap 2 way crossover pre: CPS will solve the problem.

Shingles

So, I just got the Behringer B1200d-Pro subwoofer to complement my CPS SS v3. Mine works -I guess I'm one of the lucky ones!
It's not the smoothest, cleanest sub in the world, especially compared with the Genelec sub in my studio system. And it took a while playing with test tones and such to dial it in. But with the stereo signal going to the sub and the filtered outputs going to the CPS it really is worth while.
The system goes louder, cleaner, with better bass, while maintaining the immense 3D sound field characteristic of the CPS. Smash and ASBs ambient VG99 patches and this speaker system is a perfect match.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Smash

I have the LD 88A sub and agree totally - having a sub makes a world of difference!

Smash

Well I sold the CPS - when I finally got into rehearsal room against full band it simply didn't cut through for the guitar tones. So Elantric - you were right all along.

I now have a pair of Yamaha DXR10s... much easier to program for as what I hear on home monitors is what I hear from the DXR's plus they will stomp over anything

imerkat

I've been waiting for the XL version to be in stock. SweetWater rep asked if i want to pre order it... that was back in March.

Smash

I don't think it's necessarily a power problem - if you play a CD through it it's very obviously not a flat response so expect to re eq your patches for band situation. Keys are definitely where it shines

sve3

Finally got around to reading this thread. I have been using the "Aspen Pittman Designs Spacestation V.3 - 280W Stereo Monitor" from Sweetwater for over a year. I have never run it over 1/2 volume or it takes out the rest of the band. Being in Florida most of the gigs are outside and you get unbelievable stereo separation on stage and in the audience. I am pushing it with a Boss GP-10 and a Roland GR-55 connected together using the GKPX-14F from Robert at Primova. http://www.primovasound.com/  Aspen Pittman Designs have come out with a brand new unit the Aspen Pittman Designs Spacestation XL - 700W 12" Full Range Stereo Monitor but for me the smaller unit has plenty of volume and bottom end (you can run a dedicated sub with them for more bottom). People tell me at gigs and most are players, that it sounds very true to the original when I jump from a Fender to a Marshall etc. When playing pipe organ from the GR-55 thru it the stereo spread is amazing, guitar with chorus and delay are as if you have headphones on (even more so with a little herb, hey what can I say I grew up in Florida...) I tried multiple setups using two amps and or pa systems but there is no comparison, the whole venue hears the stereo spatial spread AND you don't need to play as loud because the design spreads the sonic waves throughout the room. Playing the 12 string settings with a chorus is an amazing sound a lot like Tom Petty on his Rick's 12 string model. Try it, the combination of sound, lite weight and only two wires to plug in it cannot be beat and it comes with a cover... what a deal!

Smash

Glad it works for you. Simply didn't cut through against a medium power drummer (ex The Enid) I was constantly being told I couldn't be heard by the band.

Anyone going to try it make sure there's a returns deal.

admin

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/spacestation-xl-3d-sound-powered-cabinet-review.2000886/

chrishurley
Supporting Member
Sorry for the length- I tried to trim this down (believe it or not)

Executive Summary: These cabinets are not perfectly flat but they are very fun to use.

I've had a CPS Space Station V3 cabinet for a year or so now. For those who aren't familiar with these cabinets, "Center Point Stereo" is a system that takes in a stereo signal and outputs it through a multi-speaker system including front and side speakers. The front speakers output the common "center channel" while the side speaker handles things that are not in the "center channel". This has been described as the opposite of a mid-side micing technique. The result is a speaker cabinet that delivers a unique "3d" sound throughout the room without requiring you to be in the sweet spot like a traditional left/right speaker pair would.

In practice, this works very well for stereo material. You don't perceive left/right in the same way you would for normal stereo speakers but the resulting 3d sound is very enjoyable and unique, particularly as you move around the room and continue to hear everything. Keyboard players love these cabinets but they have maybe been a bit of a sleeper for guitar players.

I picked up a SSv3 a couple of years ago to use with my Axe-FX and like many others who tried it, found that it sounded great with heavy stereo material but left a little something to be desired for guitar signals that were primarily mono- probably due to the 8" main speaker.

More recently, I discovered a trick that really makes this cabinet come alive: stereo cabinet simulation. On the Fractal devices, its very easy to set up a stereo cab block mix where you have one cabinet IR panned dead center and another complementary cabinet IR panned off to the side. Played through my CLR, this is just a mixed cabinet sound that is agreeable but unremarkable. On the SpaceStation, this trick makes the cabinet come alive as the panned IR gets blended out to the side system. Other effects devices that can handle a stereo IR can employ this technique as well.

Using this technique results in an experience that reminds me of playing an open back cabinet in a nice room- it has a liveliness that is really fun to play. Dial in just a little stereo reverb and it's fantastic! You can adjust how much of the side system you want to hear based on the room or weather.

The stereo cab sim method of taking your mono signal and making it stereo translates down to the mono FOH feed very well because it is just a mixed IR. While stereo chorus or enhancement can be fine in mono, it is an effect that you hear and must accept. If you want those effects, that's great. If you want something that delivers more of a "dry" guitar sound that isn't drenched in effects, this technique can help.

I've been aware that Aspen & company have been working on a larger version of this cabinet called the Space Station XL for a while. This cabinet has a 12" system in the front and two side speakers along with more power and a mixed second input.

I finally reached out to Aspen to see about testing one of these larger cabinets and he offered to let me borrow one for review with no strings attached. After a couple of weeks with it, I wanted to share the results because I know some other folks out there have been interested in these cabinets.

Everything that I express about the SSv3 is true about the SSxl, just amplified. It just delivers much more of everything. In strictly mono terms, the 12" speaker system delivers a bigger guitar sound than an 8" speaker can. When I crank this up in a mono context with my favorite IR, it is more enjoyable than any FR cabinet I've used before, including the CLR, Xitones, Powercab- partially because of the ease with which I can adjust the volume of the horn. More on that in a moment but I'll mention that these other speakers are great options that are loved by many people. I still use my CLR in certain situations.

The extra side speaker in the XL helps the system to get much louder than the V3 and enhances the 3d effect. I spent a considerable amount of time just enjoying music through the system over the last couple of weeks. Program material with significant stereo elements are a delight to hear through the XL and the V3 as they seem to fill the room.

While the V3 can be used with a subwoofer, the XL really doesn't need one unless you're playing back material with tons of low end. The second input makes it easy to route in a Bluetooth receiver and mix to taste.

Neither of these cabinets seem to match up with my CLR exactly in terms of being flat response but the adjustable high frequency controls allowed me to get close to the overall sound of the CLR for patch making while allowing me to roll off some highs when desired. For me, having the HF control a little north of 12 o'clock most closely matched the amount of high frequency content I was hearing from my CLR.

A big bonus for me is being able to easily and musically turn down the high frequency content on days when I'm finding I want less of it. I wish all cabinets had this. Even on my CLR, I find myself wishing (with stock program content) that I could turn down the horn sometimes. It is a different experience to turn the horn itself down versus performing high cut on my modeler. I'm sure there is a technique on the modeler to do it but just turning the knob is easier. This is much less invasive than turning the horn off- something that I wanted to love on other cabinets but just couldn't dig even after buying specially crafted IRs.

As Scott mentioned in his review of the V3 a while ago- I wouldn't call these cabinets perfectly flat but they are full range and musical in their tonality. For me as a guitar player, this is a win because I still want to enjoy the sound of my cabinet even as I tell myself "what the audience hears is most important" over and over. What the audience hears is certainly important but what I hear is important too because my playing suffers if I don't enjoy the tone- both of these cabinets have features that make it more enjoyable to play (the adjustable horn, the 3d sound) while remaining musically flat and full range. If you want the most brutally honest and flat FRFR cabinet, this probably isn't it, but I think it is flat enough while being extremely enjoyable to use for electric guitar.

Now for the cons: Where the SSv3 is a very small and convenient cabinet, the SSxl is a rather large and heavy cabinet. The physical space it occupies might be similar to a 2x12 though it is maybe deeper and narrower than a 2x12. I assume that the 12" speaker is not a neo and maybe that would have helped with weight but the handles are comfortable and well placed making it easy enough to carry it a short distance. I would probably cart this like I would cart my subs and PA mains once I got it out of the truck.

The cost of the XL isn't trivial but there isn't anything else that does what this cabinet does (other than the V3 which is still available) and they are evidently made in relatively small quantities. A pair of mid-range stereo FR cabinets are probably less expensive, but they don't deliver the same experience that this single cabinet does- especially for playing guitar. With both models available, it is possible to have the size you need or even both sizes if your wallet will permit.

In summary, I think these speakers are a great option for guitar players who want to use cabinet IR's and enjoy mixed full range material in their guitar cabinet but find the normal FRFR experience a little bit lacking. They are also very enjoyable for music playback and should work well in situations where you want to run a couple of instruments and vocals through them provided that you don't need to carry a stadium.

Feel free to ask me any questions. I still have both cabinets

admin

QuoteThe Center Point Stereo magic works by electronically encoding the stereo Left and Right signals to be Mid (L+R) and Side (L-R) signals, then decoding them acoustically via the unique Front and Side dipole-powered speaker array. Center Point Stereo creates a magical 3D stereo sound field that never collapses as with all conventional stereo speaker arrays. Then 'sweet spot' is EVERYWHERE – even traveling around corners and into adjacent rooms!

https://www.izotope.com/en/blog/mastering/what-is-midside-processing.html



https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/creative-midside-processing

Smash

AUM mixer on iPad can do mid side for experimental types

vtgearhead

I didn't realize the center point systems were basically M-S microphones in reverse.  Very clever.  But, how do out-of-phase side speakers square with decent bass response?  Or, do they roll off the low end on the side radiators and rely on the front?

Shingles

Quote from: vtgearhead on February 14, 2019, 01:21:07 PM
I didn't realize the center point systems were basically M-S microphones in reverse.  Very clever.  But, how do out-of-phase side speakers square with decent bass response?  Or, do they roll off the low end on the side radiators and rely on the front?

They roll off the low end, naturally because the side speaker(s) is small. There's no point to stereo below around 150Hz   
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

bosetuno

I´ve had designed some Center Point systems since 3 years ago, but never saw this post until now. I once tried to start a discussion on the rack space in TGP but nobody care about it...

I´ve never tried the Aspen Pittman models, but I designed a couple of "Hifi" systems (one big, one small) using that aproach, plus one Guitar Cab that is my main cab nowadays. However I made something diferent than the original design. I use two side speakers. That make designing and construction of the enclosure much easier, since any box can be used. In my experiece with two side speakers there´s not much of a diference from a center point side source if both side speakers are separetad by the same amount from the Mid speaker and of course its polarities must be reversed for the system to work properly. And the main advantage is that any closed 1x12 enclosure can be adapted by placing 1x8 inches speakers on each side. Side information is usually above 300Hz so the side speakers can be smaller than the Mid Speaker. I dont like IR not speaker emulation, so my box is fitted with an EV12L on the mid channel plus a couple of Faital Pro 10FE200. I use a small DSP board from sure electronics to do the MS encoding and an old ABinternational 900B power amp. This is loud indeed. And chaeper than the Space Station

It is not stereo and sometimes i missed it. Autopan effects turn into Rotary Fx in the MS system. It´s cool, but if you just want an Autopan Fx it wont work.  The "stereo" spread is great however, and I actually think this is something very interesting for PA instalations. To get a kind of stereo sense no matter where you are placed should be something to consider in any PA instalation

vtgearhead

An AB Systems power amp?  Man, that brings back memories.  I was a dealer for AB during a previous life as a pro-audio retailer.  In checking on the net, I learned that Bob Bird passed in 1999.  He was a terrific guy and a pleasure to deal with.

admin

#69
Quote from: vtgearhead on February 15, 2019, 01:56:12 PM
An AB Systems power amp?  Man, that brings back memories.  I was a dealer for AB during a previous life as a pro-audio retailer.  In checking on the net, I learned that Bob Bird passed in 1999.  He was a terrific guy and a pleasure to deal with.

AB International Electronics, Inc.
http://www.abamps.com/index.html

Company based in Roseville, California, USA that took over the manufacture of the products AB Systems Design had been making prior to their closure. The company continued the manufacture of the by then fairly well known and well liked sound reinforcement amplifiers the earlier company had made and added products such as equalisers and test equipment to the line-up. Timeline and background info on the company is not really known but we do know that George Anderson was the technical guru behind most of the later designs, and while sales manager Robert J. Bird owned the bulk of the company and in the early years of the company contributed some design work as well but a gent called Jeff Kuells appears to be one of the owners as well. The company disappears in 2000 and a company called Amplified Design Int. takes over the brand and continues to manufacture a amplifier designs made by ABIE, it appears that Bob Bird (note that his name is often misspelled Byrd) passed away in 1999 and that is the reason that the brand was sold.




bosetuno

Quote from: vtgearhead on February 15, 2019, 01:56:12 PM
An AB Systems power amp?  Man, that brings back memories.  I was a dealer for AB during a previous life as a pro-audio retailer.  In checking on the net, I learned that Bob Bird passed in 1999.  He was a terrific guy and a pleasure to deal with.


I love that amp. Power in spades. I would like to buy a replacement, but they are quite rare in europe


In my experience, in order to get as loud as any 50+watts rated tube amp a huge amount of power is required from a ss amp. I once read that a Marshall stack can go up to 130db. Thats 40 dbs of gain with a good and sensitive speaker. You need over a 1000w to get that loudness.

Smash

My Yamaha DXR10s achieve 132db rated at 700 watts

bosetuno

PA speakers are usually more sensitive than guitar speakers. A guitar speaker is rated ad 86-90db at 1 watt, which is high compared to hifi standards, but nothing comparable with the 100+db of most pa horns. I've never tried the Yamaha dxr10, but any pa speaker ive tried began to introduce quite a lot of frecuency distortion beyond a certain point well below its rated max sound pressure.

Bear in mind that any time you double power the sound pressure increase in 3dB, only. So, a speaker with a sensitivity of 90db will need 10x the power of a speaker rated ad 100dB to produce the same sound pressure. Thats the reason your Yamaha need "only" 700watts to produce 132dB.

Smash

Should have said 700 continuous, 1100 dynamic....whatever that means!

All i know is they're bloody loud :D

plexified



Recently became aware of the Center Point Sound SpaceStation V.3 & XL and this thread through a search. Great read btw, I initially was looking at the Fender Acoustasonic SFX II. They turn up often for $250 and had my attention. At this point it is most likely under powered for my needs and the Spacestations are rare and priced a bit steep. The XL would be my preference but $ 1K is a no go.

So the point of this inquiry was to persue an immersive live audio presentation throughout a venue and this appears to be worth trying out for me.

The Traditional Stereo PA for me has been discovered to be not up to standards regarding the big picture. I find the "sweet spot" too small for the rest of my audiences and have tried many strategies. My main complaint is SPL is too high and laserline to be a pleasant listening experience.

SMASH had a fantastic video demonstrating his rig with a Thomas Dolby Beauty of a Dream tune and his efforts represent a shared goal as did a few others here that replied. So I'm looking to try this and was looking for some assistance doing so.

I checked Sure electronics and did not find the DSP MS converter previously mentioned, so I wonder if I need it at all.  Is there a way to wire a stereo signal as described with the MS information earlier ? Hardwired without DSP, that would be my first question.

I would then be able to wire up a sub, satellite with a center speaker and give it a try.

Next idea would be if I did aquire a Fender Acoustasonic II SFX 370 as presented earlier in the thread, could I upgrade or bypass the amps and provide my own speakers to overcome the low power issue ? Class D Stereo amp with Celestion F12-X200 or EV-12L center.

Thanks in Advance !