Tough times for local bands ??

Started by s0c9, September 13, 2008, 06:19:37 PM

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s0c9

While I can't speak for other areas, mine [North Texas] seems to be undergoing an economic downturn for local bands. By bands I mean tribute and cover bands.. Originals have always had a tough row-to-hoe in this part of the country.

Over the past couple of months, gigs seem harder to find [ASCAP/BMI came thru], the bars [and other venues] are offering/paying less, and more and more [regularly gigging] bands are being approached by management and asked to play the same 4 hr gigs for less $$.

I'm also hearing [and seeing that] some bands are undercutting others, even playing for free. They are so desparate to get gigs that they are willing to play a venue for FREE to get in the door !!!   That's like me asking a bar manager if 150 of my close friends can stop by and play pool, watch their TV's, drink and party fro 4 hrs, and if we like it we'll pay you something next time ??? ???   We ALL know what their reaction to that would be !!!  @#$#$@%#$%&

And. some venues a discontinuing bands altogether...   :o

This really sucks...
This happening to any of you ??

PS: 2 of my last 3 gigs were cancelled and I get nothing for that [but that's another issue]. I'm not a pro musician. I do NOT make a living doing gigs.

clearlight

i think thats happening a lot even where I live (CT/ Northeast)

theres arguably many reasons why, but it does a bar no good to have a band that doesn't draw a crowd..........
its like the appreciation factor is down and people are ok with a crappy DJ or +gasp+  the radio on........
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big_jan

Not only in your part of the world. In Singapore, we have already been asked by F&B Mgmt to get pay cuts. So we asked Management to allow us to put a tip jar ;) and it works. Its going to be a long WORLD RECESSION. Keep on rockin' its good for our total being! Cheers!

s0c9

#3
Quote from: clearlight on November 18, 2008, 09:54:06 AM
theres arguably many reasons why, but it does a bar no good to have a band that doesn't draw a crowd..........

This is [IMHO] fundamentally flawed logic... If I gig once a month, then my band should draw a crowd to a venue. If my band plays 6-8 times a month, there no way in hell I'm dragging a good size crowd around town to each gig. That simply will not happen.
Bar owners who talk about bands bringing crowds ["your number are not real good this time"] fail to realize that the band enhances the venue. You want a band that KEEPS crowds, not one that brings a good crowd that leaves a third of the way into the night. A good venue has its own crowd and the band enhances the patrons night - and the bars 'take' - by keeping the crowd there for the duration.

In other words, I don't believe its solely the bands job to make a venue successful.. if the bar doesn't have the attraction [ambience if you will] then it will not be a success merely 'cus the band is good that night.

True, its a symbiotic business relationship and many musicians forget that, and most bands I know work hard to help. But I know venues who hire bands because they like them not because they bring a crowd. I also know venues where there are private parties held, then the owners use that to say "look at the crowd we had Fri night" and use it against another band, when the band that played that night really only brought 20 people.

It will be tough for a while and I understand that bar are in business to make money.. false economy doesn't help.

Elantric

#4
Intersting perspective from a recent thread on The gear page

Backing Tracks... the death of cover bands... club owner perspective
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/backing-tracks-the-death-of-cover-bands-club-owner-perspective.1619102/

QuoteSo we are out booking our band for 2016 and find out in our area at least that many club owners have decided to cut live bands from FRI nights. Some are going to live bands every other Sat as well.

As we are talking to one of the owners he says "there seemed to be a consensus among club owners that bands are starting to sound like cd's, and we can get that from a DJ. DJ's don't cost us $600+ either."

So I asked what do you mean sound like cd's? He said

"They do. It's all computer tracks and our guests seem to ask are these live or taped? Bands like that hardly take any requests. Problem we have is about half the bands are doing this nowadays. Even their vocals are not being sang by the band. I've talked with other owners, they said the same. Even the patio guy I won't be bringing back. He's another one with a computer and acoustic guitar. I pay him $250, and can get a DJ for $100 and do the same **** from 6-8pm and be just like a record. That dude too is fumbling through his laptop instead of just entertaining people. I told him I'm going to hire a dj next year for the patio gig and I told him why"

Then he added, "Why do live bands want to sound like CD's? I never got that and since more are, I just get a guy to play a damn cd instead... it's cheaper, and these bands aren't really playing live music anyway. I'm not saying they didn't sound good, but sounding like a CD gives me more reason to hire a DJ since I can get just an many asses or more in the building doing that instead"


QuoteIt's interesting to read this. The entire zeitgeist has moved away from live music. Music education, popular artists and even festivals that were based on live musicians are increasingly filled with electronic acts. It's all sort of a cycle in the works.

The irony is that a lot of pop music fans I know are actually angered if they see a live act and it doesn't sound like the album. Barring major artists or youtube acoustic covers, they aren't thrilled by the idea of new interpretations of songs they have come to love. Then I read your post and it confirms what I too have seen, club owners are finding that DJs are cheaper and audiences react. I've seen DJ rooms in clubs that are far more full and lively than a groovin' band playing in the adjacent room. You can also see a generational split in who is drawn to which room.

This is funny, because the further back in time you go it was considered a negative mark to use backing tracks or have DJs. Now it's been quite the reversal. It will be a while before the possibility of a reversal. Something huge has to happen like a Beatle-level of popular band emerges or today's kids grow up looking for something "new" to call their own and they choose live music. As things are today, don't be surprised if more live music venues disappear.

My guitar, my laptop, my camera, my family & my friends... that's everything I love and everything I need.

QuoteMeh. These guys want it all, don't they? The reason most bands resort to backing tracks is because club owners pay so pathetically low. Do they really think they're going to get a full band up there for less than $300? If being a cheap ass works for you (meaning it doesn't matter to your establishment's success whether you have live music or a dj), then by all means keep cheaping out until you're down to a guy playing cds. If you want actual live music, you're going to have to pay a reasonable amount of money. How ridiculous that this guy that has admitted his budget is $250 is complaining about the quality of live music he's getting like it's the fault of the guy he's pay slave wages to. I don't believe this guy's attitude is universal, as those one and two man karaoke 'bands' get hired regularly in this area. But it would be cool if it were. Because eventually some club owners would start figuring out that if they want live music (as in, a full band with instruments), they'll have to pay for it. I say eventually, because that would come after all the blaming of musicians for not wanting to work for below minimum wage had run it's course.

thebrushwithin

Very interesting! Funny, but DJ's, in my neck of the woods, are paid twice what most bands get. In fact, one large DJ company, rarely sends anyone out for less than $1000. Fortunately, I have scooped up some of the "lower" paying parties, doing a combo of backing tracks as a solo, and splitting the night just playing mp3's. the BMI/Ascap folks have also contributed to the lowering wages of local musicians, as well as the shutdown of some venues, due to their aggressive stance on venue licensing fees, which actually only benefit high end, name performers.

GraemeJ

I think this is pretty much a worldwide trend.  The sort of thing is happening all over Europe (I live in Spain, but have friends in most other European countries and they are all suffering).

I'm afraid it's a situation that is driven by todays technology.

Elantric

#7
I suspect a cover band that relies on too much High tech gear , and looks more like they are checking their email mid song at gigs with iPads, and not delivering a blazing musical performance the old fashioned way will have it tough.

whippinpost91850

Elantric, I have to agree with you. While I like the sound and control technology, I find a lot of bands have forgotten how important it is , to "entertain and make friends" with their audience

Elantric

#9
I see it here too. I see bands that look bored and distracted on stage and spending too much time between songs fumbling with a mic stand mounted iPad at eye level searching for tunes / Lyrics with Onsong , Setlistmaker , etc. and barely making eye contact with the crowd - who in between songs only see 3 guys fumbling with their iPads and a bored drummer on stage .

Watch a rerun of Lawrence Welk show or Les Paul Mary Ford or Smothers Brothers ( who were a folk act that evolved into comedy) or Kiss, or j Geils band or Rolling Stones or Buddy Guy or Buddy Rich or Frank Zappa, and realize when you are on  stage, it's all about the show - be an entertainer !

I do alright as my local homage to Dick Dale surf tribute Trio , or the original Kristen Black band, but I'm mindful that too much tech can be distracting and be a bad thing. Else you might find yourself being upstaged by a local pair of teenage girls who play fiddle and banjo and sing folk tunes in tight harmony.

chrish

Interesting discussion. The trio i played with for 6 years ended mainly because we had a hard time finding local gigs. It didn't help that we chose to perform latin jazz fusion, but some folks understood what we were trying to do and enjoyed the show. Some would ask about the tech aspects, like, 'how did you get that thunderstorm with the crickets'. I'd also use the wireless tech to leave the stage and stroll around the crowd. If we played a two story food and bar place, sometimes i even go upstairs and walk around while i played or go out into the hall and play . It was good fun but the bands timing would suffer durning those times from the sound delay. Locally we had to go to the bar owners and propose things like sunday summer outdoor jazz or wednesday pizza night, but we worked cheap because we loved to play. One bar owner set up open mic nights so he could have free music and paying and playing musicians. One time i told him that we'd like to use his place to rehearse and he jumped at the oppurtunity for free music and put up the music play bill. But what he got is what i told him, a band rehearsal, full of stops and repeated songs and we drank his beer. More good times. The most important thing was that i was playing music that i loved with goods friends who had the same passion.

GraemeJ

Quote from: Elantric on September 16, 2015, 07:48:04 AM
I suspect a cover band that relies on too much High tech gear , and looks more like they are checking their email mid song at gigs, and not delivering a blazing musical performance the old fashioned way will have it tough.

While I agree with the sentiments you express, I don't think that was really the thrust of the original post by s0c9.

It's not so much the fact of some bands relying on hi-tech gear, it's more that all bands are being displaced by single and duo acts - whose very existence has been brought about through the availability (and affordability) of this kit.  Such acts can work for less than a four piece outfit and still make a living. 

Many venues have a budget for entertainment. That same amount of money is on offer to the bigger outfits but, when divided between the players, barely covers the petrol.   

The technology was winning fifty years ago, it's a case of history repeating itself. I well remember the trio I was working with in the mid '60's, six nights a week in a large restaurant, getting the shove in favour of a man with a record player. 

Elantric

#12
QuoteI don't think that was really the thrust of the original post by s0c9.

That was 8 years ago 
s0c9 wrote>
QuoteWhile I can't speak for other areas, mine [North Texas] seems to be undergoing an economic downturn for local bands. By bands I mean tribute and cover bands.. Originals have always had a tough row-to-hoe in this part of the country.

And. some venues are discontinuing bands altogether...   :o

This really sucks...
This happening to any of you ??

- but the updated info i added today here: Seemed relevant and on topic for the title of this thread: "Tough times for local bands"
Its important to share every angle as to why many club owners are cutting back on hiring bands for live music 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1121.msg115670#msg115670



http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/backing-tracks-the-death-of-cover-bands-club-owner-perspective.1619102/
Backing Tracks... the death of cover bands... club owner perspective
QuoteSo we are out booking our band for 2016 and find out in our area at least that many club owners have decided to cut live bands from FRI nights. Some are going to live bands every other Sat as well.

As we are talking to one of the owners he says "there seemed to be a consensus among club owners that bands are starting to sound like cd's, and we can get that from a DJ. DJ's don't cost us $600+ either."

So I asked what do you mean sound like cd's? He said:

"They do. It's all computer tracks and our guests seem to ask are these live or taped? Bands like that hardly take any requests. Problem we have is about half the bands are doing this nowadays. Even their vocals are not being sang by the band. I've talked with other owners, they said the same. Even the patio guy I won't be bringing back. He's another one with a computer and acoustic guitar. I pay him $250, and can get a DJ for $100 and do the same **** from 6-8pm and be just like a record. That dude too is fumbling through his laptop instead of just entertaining people. I told him I'm going to hire a dj next year for the patio gig and I told him why"

Then he added, "Why do live bands want to sound like CD's? I never got that and since more are, I just get a guy to play a damn cd instead... it's cheaper, and these bands aren't really playing live music anyway. I'm not saying they didn't sound good, but sounding like a CD gives me more reason to hire a DJ since I can get just an many asses or more in the building doing that instead"



----

QuoteVery interesting! Funny, but DJ's, in my neck of the woods, are paid twice what most bands get. In fact, one large DJ company, rarely sends anyone out for less than $1000.


Here in my College town, several clubs have added a "house" DJ Booth beside the stage, and they simply hire a local student to spin dance tunes on CDs and pay him $100 for 3 hours  - last time I saw him he just used his iTunes playlist on an iPad, and waved colored flashlights as he danced.

GraemeJ

Ooops - my bad for not checking the date of the OP.

Even so, I still think the points I made in my post are valid.  It's becoming increasingly difficult for completely live bands to find decently paid work on this side of the pond and this is primarily due to the technology aided single/duo acts.   

gumtown

Bar Bands in my parts seem to be paid less now than back in 1985,
it is certainly not just for the money.

I think it's to do with the harsh drink drive laws now, not many go out drinking all night if they need transport.
Back in days past, if you got caught drink driving over the limit (and I was caught drink in hand), you were made to empty it out and told to drive directly home.
Now there is such a stigma with drink driving, loss of licence, insurance cancelled, car impounded, fine and court costs, diminished employment opportunities...

That has impacted on the night life here, and those that are out for a night out must have some alternative transport arranged, as they drink to oblivion and then want to join in with the band (it's hard to argue with a severely intoxicated person that their drumming will not be good, so don't even ask).

It must be a good thing then, that I enjoy what I do for the fun of playing live music.

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#15
QuoteI think it's to do with the harsh drink drive laws now, not many go out drinking all night if they need transport.

Agreed!  -thats a major issue in my own area as well.

For big gigs 20 miles away,  I have a friend who owns a school bus and we hire him to be the designated driver - and that helps get us re-booked when we bring our own crowd ! 

GraemeJ

Drink-drive laws in Spain are equally bad and the police exercise particular attention during the holiday period.  I was stopped three times (and breathalysed each time) in one 20 minute drive from a gig on the coast to my house inland.

However, most of the work available is on the coast and holiday makers are generally in hotels that are close enough to the bars and other venues to allow walking to them.  OTOH, there is not so much discretionary spending money as there was, so people simply aren't spending like they used to.

robilo

How many of you are offered to play for the same amount of money you made 20 to 30 years ago?
I was offered to setup and do sound at $150 a gig last year but declined. I was making as much in the 80's and did not have to setup!

Soon, we'll move into banda, nortenos et al, no competition there!
Lean your body forward slightly to support the guitar against your chest, for the poetry of the music should resound in your heart. Andres Segovia

whippinpost91850

Same problem here in Detroit area.
But I love the school bus idea :)

Elantric


Pete1959

Quote from: Elantric on September 17, 2015, 05:41:53 PM


LOL all too true!
Worst part is my repair bills usually meant the gig was a net loss.

Great clip!

GraemeJ

Quote from: robilo on September 17, 2015, 04:58:41 PM
How many of you are offered to play for the same amount of money you made 20 to 30 years ago?

I find it a lot less than 30 years ago.  In the '60'and '70's, I could easily pick up £50 a night - a not insubstantial sum in those days - now I count myself lucky to get 50 euros.

I'd say most of my gigs run at a financial loss to me. By the time I allow for fuel, wear and tear on the gear, buy a couple of drinks, etc., I'm already almost in the loss-making area.  If my wife comes with me (which is most often the case) she will have a meal, buy a bottle of wine (for her, not me) and then I'm definitely in the red :) .

I would hate to try and earn a living out of playing.

acousticglue

Quote from: GraemeJ on September 17, 2015, 02:30:54 PM
Drink-drive laws in Spain are equally bad and the police exercise particular attention during the holiday period.  I was stopped three times (and breathalysed each time) in one 20 minute drive from a gig on the coast to my house inland.

However, most of the work available is on the coast and holiday makers are generally in hotels that are close enough to the bars and other venues to allow walking to them.  OTOH, there is not so much discretionary spending money as there was, so people simply aren't spending like they used to.

Thats just it. The police in any nation should not be able to stop anyone without some type of probable cause. I think these should be eliminated. I would hate to die under the influence or kill under the influence but this does nothing to keep folks from doing it. Do away with cars and bring back horses. This way people under the influence can fall off horse and not bother anyone else.

dafrimpster

Thirty years ago I would play a gig and make $100. Fast forward to today when I play a gig and make $100. Back then I had $1000 wrapped up  in gear. Now I have $1000 in gear. Fortunately I have a great day job that pays my bills so it's not a deal breaker. Gigs are pretty abundant here/ I play four nights a week without too much effort.

stratrat

You always have to move with the times - musically, fashion-wise and economically. You have to be flexible.

Some of this has already been said, but:

When stages and/or money get smaller, scale down to a smaller band/duo or even solo. Punt it as a value-added feature and offer venue owners/operators the options of a full band for x amount and a smaller, scaled down version for less.

If the expectation of a full sound remains, adopt more tech to fill in the gaps. Guitar synths, loopers, drum machines ...even (gasp!) backing tracks (you see them even on the big stages and you don't have to be obvious about it). If you're a solo/duo act sans rhythm section, and want to keep it all live, add in a kick drum or Mississippi drum machine/stomp box. Learn to play the bass lines on your lower strings and layer a modelled or synthesized bass sound.

If your competition is piped music and DJs, add in some kind of lights and make sure you're up to snuff on what those sources of entertainment cannot provide - stagecraft and audience interaction. Be an entertainer, not just a musician. Don't just talk at your audience, have conversations with them (if possible). Get them involved by asking them things. Tell stories to provide context and entertain them, etc..

Keep working - gigs don't replace practice. Keep your repertoire fresh by constantly adding in new songs and/or rearranging existing ones. Practice and get better.