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GK-13 Reference Knowledge => GK-13 Interface Top things to know => Topic started by: Elantric on March 13, 2015, 06:53:11 PM

Title: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: Elantric on March 13, 2015, 06:53:11 PM
QuoteTony Ravenscroft wrote>
SPOILER ALERT - While a very interesting piece ( below) , it's oriented to gearheads and techies, so I'll sum up: Roland damaged their market potential by referring to their GK hex pickups as "MIDI pickups" - and they still do. 🤨 And people still show up to groups , Gear Forums, demanding to know how to plug the pickup into their synth or laptop; yes, sometimes wondering where to buy a 13-pin / 5-pin MIDI adaptor.


(https://i.postimg.cc/85CkgtKH/GK-13-connections.jpg)



(https://i0.wp.com/www.rolandus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/GC-1_13-Pin.jpg?fit=1000%2C500&ssl=1)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/s5tt91vgh/VG-8.jpg)

How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products

There is a common misconception in the Music Gear world

http://line6.com/support/topic/9778-me-too-goodbye-line-6-hello-boss-gp-10/ (http://line6.com/support/topic/9778-me-too-goodbye-line-6-hello-boss-gp-10/)
QuoteThe Boss / Roland GK-3 converts your guitar notes into MIDI data, and using a standard 13 pin connection, triggers MIDI audio from one of their devices - such as the GP-10, or the older VG-99, or the GR-55.


The above is flat wrong !

yet 80% of Guitarists around the globe believe it to be true -often re spreading false information all over every guitar forum

The Roland GK-3 hex divided pickup provides 6  Analog Output signals ( one per string) and a 7th for the normal Pickups and feed these ANALOG signals through the GK 13 cable to the connected "GK 13 pin PROCESSOR" .
The Roland VGuitar REAL TIME Low latency GK 13pin DSP Guitar Modeling Processors ( VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GP-10, SY-1000 (as well as competing DSP Guitar Modeling systems from Antares, and Line-6 Variax) do not employ a Guitar to MIDI conversion function for their principal sound . Instead think of the VGuitar system as six separate DSP Modeling signal paths -  The Strings are the oscillators. and it functions quite similar to the Line-6 Variax signal processing flow - ( Guitar PU for each String> six A/D's ( one per string) >DSP >D/A) and latency is similar to Variax (under 2 milliseconds for each string)
and substantially much faster than any Guitar to MIDI system or Guitar to PCM system. ( compare to Guitar to MIDI systems average 7-28milliseconds, lower pitch is higher latency

The biggest difference between Roland VG Series and Line 6 Variax is the DSP is inside the Guitar on the Line-6 system - both allow real time DSP generated Alternate Tunings, Guitar Modeling and on Roland VG systems and Antares ATG-1 - Pedal Steel multi-string pitch  bends  - no MIDI involved !

Click here and see how many folks (and many new VGuitarForums members) STILL call the GK cable a "13 pin MIDI Cable"
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=roland%2B13%2Bpin%2Bmidi%2Bcable (https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=roland%2B13%2Bpin%2Bmidi%2Bcable)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg56700#msg56700 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg56700#msg56700)


The posts above reveal the common misunderstanding of Roland 13pin GK VGuitar  Modeling gear

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135)

Roland US's lack of Dealer education on the simple matter of

"How should marketing describe the Roland GK 13 Pin DIN Cable on the sales order sheet?

- all helped to slow the sales of VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10 Roland VGuitar Hex COSM Modelers

(https://s6.postimg.cc/91k8c8avl/13_MIDI.png)
Test: Go to most any Guitar Center and you will find the Roland 13 pin cables are typically never stocked in the Guitar department, instead they are stocked over in the Keyboard department - on the same rack with 5pin MIDI Cables.


Even the Planet Waves GK 13 is incorrectly labeled as a "MIDI Cable" !


This misinformation Fake News damaged the "Roland GK VGuitar " brand)



When Roland dealers continue today to call the GK13 DIN cable a "MIDI cable", THIS KILLs their sales of Boss / Roland GK VGuitar  Processors.

Today even casual guitar players  know Guitar to MIDI has a battle with latency and mis-triggered Notes that make you look like a fool at the live gig.

Many Newbies and younger guitarists , even the sales staff at music stores hear the word MIDI Guitar , and  think:

Quote"MIDI Guitar is old school 30 year old tech that should have died" ,
https://www.midi.org/articles/does-midi-have-an-image-problem

and never look at the near zero Latency VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10/ SY-1000  Roland VGuitar Hex GK Processor /  Modeler systems because they think:

"Roland GK gear uses that 13pin MIDI cable, I don't want to use gear with sluggish Guitar to MIDI latency delays!"

Roland US Marketing Failed since they continue to not deal with the general public's mis informed idea of what a Roland GK 13 Pin interface actually Is and what a GK-3 actually does, and how its an ANALOG CONNECTION .
(https://i.postimg.cc/85CkgtKH/GK-13-connections.jpg)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=26281;image)



if you examine the details of the Roland  / RMC / Graph-Tech Ghost Hex PU Circuit which drives the Roland GK 13 pin cable - , it becomes apparent MIDI data messages have never existed withn ANY 13 pin cable  interface from Roland or Any other manufacturer at anytime.


Essentially the GK-3 is a Divided Hexaphonic PU feeding a  multi-channel analog Buffer/Line driver
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Putting_the_Hex_On_the_Postmodern_Pickups

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr3Hfc0h/1372711709-1341344606-GK3-zps389eff64.png)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7893.msg56178#msg56178 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7893.msg56178#msg56178)

Only Roland Japan Corporate Global site tries to clear up the confusion

http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html

(https://s6.postimg.cc/ehk3rxglt/GK-1.png)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/vi300llxd/GK-2.png)
(https://s6.postimg.cc/x9vyvhxkh/GK-3.png)


---

https://www.roland.com/us/support/knowledge_base/201922959/
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GUITAR SYNTHESIZERS AND THE VG-8
Back to Results

Tags: gi-10, gr-1, vg-8, vg-88, gr-09
The VG-8 / VG-88 V-Guitar is not a guitar synthesizer like the GR-09, GR-1 or
GR-30/33, or a Guitar-to-MIDI Converter like the GI-10. In the GR-Series and
the GI-10, the signal from the GK-2A pickup (which is analogous to a standard
pickup signal for each string) is converted to a pitch which is then available
to trigger a sound, either internally (GR-09, GR-1, GR-30) or through MIDI.
This makes these units ideal for sequencing and playing realistic sounds like
pianos, organs or drums.

On the VG-8 / VG-88,GP-10 the signal from the GK-2A / GK-3 hex Pickup is modified in realtime into an
entirely new sound which allows all of your picking and playing techniques to
be preserved.
The VG-8/ VG-88 does not transmit MIDI note numbers, nor does it
act as a MIDI sound module. Although the VG-8 / VG-88 has the ability to modify
the guitar sound into unique sounds (like a synthesizer would), there is
absolutely none of the tracking delay normally associated with guitar synths
because the sound of the guitar is modified in real time. The VG-8 / VG-88 is
unsurpassed in creating a multitude of authentic guitar tones which would
previously only be attainable by purchasing a truckload of different guitars,
amps and speakers.


Roland COSM Reference Library
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr3Hfc0h/1372711709-1341344606-GK3-zps389eff64.png)
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: Alec Lee on March 15, 2015, 06:56:20 AM
Good point.  One reason I use the built-in synth voices in my VG-99 and GP-10 is because there's no latency.
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: Tony Raven on May 19, 2015, 06:00:49 PM
Wow -- you nailed it. :o My "gut" says you're probably correct about the fallout as well.

In my day job, I build transit buses, & sometimes help run wiring harness, so I'm pretty aware of the importance of describing a cable & its terminals precisely, & I've got it locked in my little brain that "MIDI cable" <==> "five-pin DIN" -- period.

And having owned Roland/Boss gear for almost 20 years, when I decided to move into hex guitar, I still had to work to separate "synth" & COSM in my mind. If I found it to be such a stumbling point, chances are there's a LOT of people who mosh it up even worse.
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 01, 2015, 09:57:09 AM
At gigs I've had people go "Oh!  Midi guitar."  And I say "nope.  Hex guitar with processing - it's not a MIDI cable..."
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: mapperboy on June 01, 2015, 11:45:29 AM
All these posts are well noted.
Since I became involved in electronic technology as a nerddy 9 year old, building my first FM wireless transmitter with 90V battery power peanut vacuum tubes, I realized there are at least two or more brain types of people in our world.  My Dad, who was a military technologist and flew cold war nukes in SAC (Strategic Air Command) bombers was required to understand complex systems and was a great influence and encouragement to my 'hobby'.  We could discuss the design nuance and build parameters for the my early experiments at length. My mom on the other hand simply wanted to know 'Does It Work Now" and "Can I Talk Into the FM Radio Now?" If I tried to engage her with why it wasn't working yet using technological and electronic terms, her eyes glazed over. 
So it is with many in the music industry, musicians and sales/vendor people alike.  How many guitarists do you know who can't or won't change a string or understand what basic instrument string-action set-up involves? 

Many of those musical brains are great even fantastic musicians but they just don't want to know or don't want to be bothered with knowing.  They rely on 'experts' to help them do their work.  This is where the abuse easily creeps in.  I saw it in the building design and construction business as well.  The perfect fit as one architect often said to me was working with a knowledgeable client, someone who could articulate their needs but also knew (or a lot) about how things were put together and the constraints one has to work with to achieve the perfect job.

When many good players don't really know what comes out of the 1/4" jack it's easy to see how marketeers, either out of ignorance or just plain bad product wrapper descriptions, totally ignore the nuances of what signals are conducted through a Roland 13 pin cable.

Unfortunately this is also what much of the gear industry feeds and depends on to drive sales.     
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: vanceg on June 02, 2015, 03:09:29 AM
I can't even begin to count how many times I've needed to explain this..no...I'm not playing a MIDI guitar. When I purchased my Planet Waves cable my heart sank when I saw it referred to as a MIDI cable. The Moog guitar referred to the 13 pin modification as the "MIDI OUTPUT" modification.   ADRIAN BELEW has even been seen referring to the 13 pin as the "MIDI Output" of his guitar. 
Sigh.
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: imerkat on June 02, 2015, 06:16:20 AM
When i first got into COSM tech I thought 13-pin cable was a old computer cable for the DOS era. I don't believe MIDI has that reputation since the DJ/home producer EDM musicians took off.
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: matigrob on August 21, 2015, 07:55:47 AM
this is a great point! by reducing the players subtle touches to MIDI, we loose the most musical information, the direct processing of each string is a lot more expressive and fun to play.
but also the connector itself make the Hex idea sick (it did not kill it in 30 years :-) : the mechanics and the pin usage (we need more control)
at least it brings power supply to the guitar, the stupid old 1/4" makes us use batteries!
but we keep thinking of new solutions, with sufficient demand, a more modern guitar standard will be possible.
maybe the lack of a good name also kills the idea? "Polyphonic" has its meaning for hundreds of years, and "Hexaphonic" is a not very correct modification that does not sound good and does not explain: its not about "several strings" but "separate string processing"
Matthias
http://paradis-guitars.com (http://paradis-guitars.com)
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: Elantric on June 08, 2016, 08:12:30 AM
http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/clearing-up-roland-midi-guitar-synth-modeling-confusion/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/clearing-up-roland-midi-guitar-synth-modeling-confusion/)

Clearing up the Roland "MIDI" guitar / synth / modeling confusion.
Article #945 Updated on Apr 27, 2007 at 12:00 AM
We seem to encounter a good deal of ongoing confusion about Roland's guitar synthesizers, in particular the hex pickup (GK-2A, GK-3), and how it relates to other products, including some of Roland's more recent modeling products. Here's a brief overview.The Roland GK-2A pickup is NOT a MIDI pickup. It simply contains six humbucking pickups – one per string.A Guitar with a GK-2A or a "GK Ready" 13-pin output equipped guitar is NOT a MIDI guitar.Any guitar with a 13-pin output (Godin, Brian Moore, Fender, Ibanez, etc.) is NOT a MIDI guitar. They are "GK ready" guitars. Meaning they can be used with GR-33s, VG-88s, VGA-7s, GR-55, GP-10, VG-99 and other 13-pin compatible products. There have been some guitars made over the years with actual MIDI outputs (meaning they had to convert the signal to MIDI in the guitar), but for the most part they haven't worked that well or been very popular. They cannot be used with modeling products like Roland's VG-8s, VG-88s, VGA-7s, GR-55, GP-10, VG-99  etc.The GR-33 guitar synthesizer converts the GK-2A's analog output to MIDI. Remember the GR-33 makes it MIDI, not the GK-2A. In the old days (older products) this conversion was somewhat slow, but it has dramatically improved over time. When you hear people refer to "triggering time," (aka, Latency) they are talking about the speed with which the pitch of the string is converted to MIDI data or a data format that can trigger a synthesizer. When you listen to the output of the GR-33 synthesizer you are hearing sample based synthesis triggered directly by what you are playing/triggering on the "GK ready" guitar.The VG-8/88 and VGA-7 are modeling products and require no type of conversion to use the output of the GK-2A or any GK ready instrument. This means there is NO triggering and there is no MIDI note data. The VG's use the output of the GK-2A and then filter any harmonics other than the fundamental frequency. The VG's and Boss GP-10 then use Roland's C.O.S.M. Modeling to construct various guitar sounds, alternate tunings, amplifiers, speakers, effects, etc. based on the actual string sound coming from the instrument. When you listen to the output of the VG-88 & VGA-7 you are hearing COSM Modeling applied to the output from the GK-2A pickup. There is NO conversion to MIDI. Consequently it is actually possible for different guitars to sound slightly different in terms of the modeling features due to inherent differences in their sound, and how it reacts with the specific modeling being applied. In most instances, however, these differences are very subtle.
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: imerkat on October 03, 2017, 05:43:17 AM
Not sure if this was posted somewhere else but more evidence for the main thesis of this thread:
http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/ptc_guitar_overhaul_vernon_reids_s2_vela

"When the paint had dried it was time for hardware and final assembly. A custom pickguard was fabricated to fit the two EMG humbuckers, Roland GK3 MIDI pickup, and new electronics controls. If you were wondering what the 13-pin connector was for, it allows connectivity between the Roland MIDI pickup and MIDI control unit!
Refer to the image below for a run-down of the electronics controls:
1. Magnetic Pickup Volume Control
2. 3-Way Blade Pickup Selector
3. Roland MIDI Pickup Volume Control
4. Magnetic Pickup Tone Control
5. 3-Way Mini Toggle (Up = MIDI Pickup, Middle = Both, Down = All Magnetic Pickup)
6. Toggle Up Through MIDI Sounds
7. Toggle Down Through MIDI Sounds
"
Title: Re: How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the Roland V-Guitar DSP Modeling brand
Post by: admin on September 12, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
https://youtu.be/_HeLhf6FQSI
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on September 17, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
Proponents continuing spreading wrong information regarding Roland / Boss VGuitar systems continue today
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VGuitarForums/1125911634464921/?comment_id=1126669727722445&reply_comment_id=1126799314376153&notif_id=1568736362654971&notif_t=group_comment_reply

QuoteThe VG-99 is not zero latency at all, it still is an old pitch to midi. the latency can be pretty high on low strings

Seems folks refuse to read product owners manuals, and then post incorrect information based upon Logical Fallacy assumptions with zero actual hands on experience with the product.

Its true for the Guitar to MIDI function, the VG-99 is in the middle of the pack  - but many assume that:
"ALL VG-99 tones are reliant on Guitar to MIDI, therefore all VG-99 tones must be sluggish and high latency"
  - (Above is a classic Logical Fallacy and completely WRONG - the VG-99 Internal Sound  DSP COSM Modeling is ultrafast, no glitching, even  modern Guitar to MIDI products are not even close to the ultra low latency of Roland VG-99 or Boss GP-10  DSP COSM Modeling tones  !)
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: GuitarBuilder on September 17, 2019, 02:46:52 PM
Quote from: admin on September 17, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
Proponents continuing spreading wrong information regarding Roland / Boss VGuitar systems continue today
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VGuitarForums/1125911634464921/?comment_id=1126669727722445&reply_comment_id=1126799314376153&notif_id=1568736362654971&notif_t=group_comment_reply

Seems folks refuse to read product owners manuals, and then post incorrect information based upon Logical Fallacy assumptions with zero actual hands on experience with the product.

Its true for the Guitar to MIDI function, the VG-99 is in the middle of the pack  - but many assume that:
"ALL VG-99 tones are reliant on Guitar to MIDI, therefore all VG-99 tones must be sluggish and high latency"
  - (Above is a classic Logical Fallacy and completely WRONG - the VG-99 DSP COSM Modeling is ultrafast, no glitching, even  modern Guitar to MIDI products are not even close to the ultra low latency of Roland VG-99 or Boss GP-10  DSP COSM Modeling tones  !)

This is just like fighting the Flat Earth believers!  We must continue to debunk the nonsense about GK being MIDI!
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: aliensporebomb on September 18, 2019, 08:14:02 PM
Every gig I play I get at least one person asking how I manage to minimize or avoid tracking delay.  When I tell them there isn't any to speak of they sort of "BLINK" and their eyes get big and don't really understand what I'm telling them.   Sad.  Then I say "it's not a guitar synth you know..."

VG-99 tracking in the GR-300 mode:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300



Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: mooncaine on September 18, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
"Science."
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on October 02, 2019, 09:19:14 AM
GK-13  - Explain what it is ( VGuitar vs MIDI Guitar)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=23149.msg168364#msg168364
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on February 04, 2020, 12:54:57 PM
This clown is spewing dis info

QuoteVariax Latency  (it's far, far better than something like the Roland GK-3 pickup into a VG-99 though)

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/electric_guitars/line_6/jtv-59p_james_tyler_variax/31447/
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on March 21, 2020, 12:11:11 PM
Quote from: s0c9 on March 21, 2020, 11:28:45 AM
thanks for the feedback...   tracking is NOT the main goal, simplciity really is..  but..
I can't believe
In terms of tracking, FTP > GR-3x > GR-55.  ????
I was under the impression it was FTP > GR-55 > GR-3x ....

The tracking on my VG-99 (+GK3) was much better than the GR-33 (+GK3) and I was under the impression the GR-55 was a combination of both, and "better"?

GK Processor - a 13 pin device with GK 13 pin input which triggers internal sounds and many also have a Guitar to MIDI function too.
 
Have to clarify that "TRACKING LATENCY" varies even on the same  GK Processor depending on what specific function is being used:

1  DSP Guitar Modeling
2  Internal OSC Synth
3  Guitar to Internal PCM Synth
4  Guitar to External MIDI

For example the GR-55 is capable of most of the above, but each have have different "TRACKING LATENCY"  - the lowest latency is #1, the highest latency is #4

TRACKING LATENCY will be highest when using the "Guitar to MIDI" function triggering an external hardware MIDI Synth via 5 pin MIDI OUT on the GK Processor     

So we must clarify the user case example 1,2,3,4, when stating the GK Processor's  "TRACKING LATENCY".
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on June 25, 2020, 03:05:26 PM
Bad info is getting perpetuated and spread by folks who should know better
https://youtu.be/Pu0rubxS0fU
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: GuitarBuilder on June 25, 2020, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: admin on June 25, 2020, 03:05:26 PM
Bad info is getting perpetuated and spread by folks who should know better
https://youtu.be/Pu0rubxS0fU

Idiots!
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: carlb on June 26, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
Interesting. He's been on GK pickups and Boss/Roland for many years, central to his rigs, and knows what they're about. Yet still calls it "Midi-Guitar." He didn't use a bit of MIDI in that whole video. Not for patch control, not for driving a separate MIDI sound source. Just modeled guitars, amps, and synths.

Had to smirk a little - he didn't get the preferential treatment for the new product release.

Spent too long going through too many preset patches - just get a few 'low-value' patches covered for example, then say how most are that way - save us all some time. Didn't explore the foot switches on any preset patches, which are active for about all patches. Pointed to the empty assigns for one of his own patches, something about not being great for live control? (Something like that anyway - it was odd.)

Made a cool patch for bells or such ... Made valid points about the box's weird shortcomings for being the flagship guitar-synth of a synth-savvy company. Agree that some killer presets would give Boss a 10x return on investment. Agree that a firmware update could potentially make this a killer box. (But have to accept that the one realistic update will just fix bugs, grab a few low lying feature-fruits, and be done.)

What he does do quite well is make videos that are watchable.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumbo on June 27, 2020, 03:54:41 AM
...and he's a lefty who plays like that so he can still borrow everyone else's guitars.... ;D ;D ;D

Sorry...MIDI guitars... ::)
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 27, 2020, 10:56:03 AM
Yeah.  For a guy who seemingly was pro GK all the way he's saying all the wrong things terminology wise and he wasn't really letting some of those patches speak to him, he was just going "yeah, uh huh, next" quite a bit.  Still....
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on July 07, 2020, 01:04:00 PM
For  those interested in the underlying principles involved in this technology read this paper by Professor Miller Puckette:


GRAFTING SYNTHESIS PATCHES ONTO LIVE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS
Miller Puckette
University of California, San Diego
http://msp.ucsd.edu/Publications/icmc10.pdf
http://msp.ucsd.edu/techniques/latest/book.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Puckette
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: baatkarlo on January 23, 2021, 07:32:18 AM
I woke this morning and read this thread. Been scratching my head for a decade about hexpups and synth vs MIDI. My GR-20 has noticeable latency but VG-99 and GP-10 do not. Thanks to you all, that's cleared up now!

Is TriplePlay a MIDI VST fronted by SSP device with hexpup?
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on January 23, 2021, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: baatkarlo on January 23, 2021, 07:32:18 AM

Is TriplePlay a MIDI VST fronted by SSP device with hexpup?

no idea what you mean
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSP

but Tripleplay hardware is a hex PU feeding a guitar mounted DSP that does the guitar to MIDI conversion and then feeds its own proprietary wireless protocal to its own wireless USB receiver dongle - presenting to the host computer as a USB MIDI Class Compliant Controller - so it works with IOS/Android/ Linux/ Win/ Mac  / Raspberry Pi USB Host ports 

The lower cost Tripleplay Connect skips the wireless block.

And all will rely on a third party Synth

Add the Fishman FC-1  - which is a embedded computer with USB host port to 5 pin MIDI out to drive hardware Synths

If you read older FC-1 threads - many users and salesmen were confused thinking the FC-1 was itself a Synth and could make sounds or load Soft Synths for use with the Tripleplay  - which is Not the case. 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13447.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=312.0
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on August 30, 2021, 11:38:55 AM
GK 13 confusion continues today  = go to 5:00 minutes
https://youtu.be/n-Pj4iCg664
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumtown on August 30, 2021, 03:58:41 PM
Bad enough calling it "midi pickup" (@5:30)
but I don't get what the guy is rattling on about the Fender guitar "chip insert that always gets lost" (@5:55),
then rants off topic about his favorite childhood Transformer toy and comparing that to "midi guitar".
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: aliensporebomb on August 30, 2021, 06:17:52 PM
I couldn't even watch for too long.  Gads.   They did say they were dumb though so...
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: philjynx on August 30, 2021, 07:15:31 PM
Just barely managed 2 minutes. EMG "i don't want a battery in my guitar". Tosser.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: BROCKSTAR on August 30, 2021, 07:53:42 PM
I just yelled at them on that video haha "IT'S NOT FREAKING MIDI! Geez, years later and people still calling a hexaphonic pickup "MIDI" which by the way is SIX MINI HUMBUCKERS..... NOT MIDI..................... Also it's still around... Seeing that BOSS just released a SY-1000 unit in early 2020 that uses the HEXAPHONIC pickup... NOT MIDI........"
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on August 30, 2021, 09:14:17 PM
Even principal design engineers at rival companies still think its a 13 pin MIDI CABLE

Because some are old enough to instantly develop a short attention span when you explain your desire  for a  hex separate string pickup,  as they have flashbacks of the sluggish 1985 Casio and Roland GM-70  and GR-700 guitar to MIDI SYSTEM
The typical guitarists reaction to a GK-3 remains, its like bringing garlic and silver hammers and silver  spikes to a vampire convention

And forget about trying to change someone's pre conceived  cultural knowledge and persuade them they are wrong, when even Adrian Belew and Robert Fripp still incorrectly identify and refer to their GK-3 hex PU  as a MIDI Pickup and GK 13 pin MIDI cable in interviews and gear run down videos for past 40 years

The damage can not be undone
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: chrish on August 30, 2021, 09:25:43 PM
YouTube channels that should go away.  ;D

Who are those guys?
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on August 30, 2021, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: chrish on August 30, 2021, 09:25:43 PM
YouTube channels that should go away.  ;D

Who are those guys?

They run an independent Guitar store Casino Guitars  in Asheville , North Carolina ,(home of Moog Instruments)  and guy on right with beard is former Gibson Nashville assembler

Their YouTube channel gained numbers during the Henry J Gibson Bankruptcy 3 years ago
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: plexified on August 30, 2021, 09:33:27 PM

Forget about "Tards" doing 'tard' things. The Fact that you can do micro pitch shift on each string on a 'non midi' pick up guitar and platform should wake you up. If not, you did not start from the begining. Did you know Billy Gibbons and Robinsnest studio used basic time parameters and tuning parameters to get that sound ?

Did it matter during the nogo double track that was not suppose to happen that they double tracked ? Maybe they shifted time and tuning. And they did.

They did NOT have HEX / Tweak. And now we do. I Cannot emphasize Enough the Impact of this concept alone. "You Start from the beginning and you morph and adapt hex string".

I have better micro pitch control in COSM than I do with an Eventide Timeline for $500.

Hex Control.

Why turn your back on it ? Because (Cliff)  some are already over the max Q personal application. Farm it out and develop a gameplan as normal aerospace would.

I don't think anything was destroyed as much as incompetance was exploited. We deal with an ever diminishing marketplace ( human capacity ). Bleached grains, flouride, bromines, glypnosate, etc. . . micro nanoparticulates and more ! Your toast!

But while we are here and operating as expected. . . Use the tools man.

If  another ' Idiocracy', ' Brain Damaged ' Player is "That Removed " from actual cognizance, well thats their work to do.

Hex Control IS a GOAL.

HEX CONTROL IS  A GOAL.

And to frame it properly. . .

Micro Pitch Control over each string alone is enough to  hear what Robinhood Studios has to say about Billy Gibbons and ZZ top.

OR. . . Listen to Van Halen Push Comes Shove. Total micro pitch shift influence. I have the same amp and its unreal. I also have a bunch of BOSS/Roland gear with the capacity to micro pitch shift and in HEX. . . Its very special. Its there. So. . .

WAKE UP!!!

OH, BTW, Leave off the 'sauce' the 'greace' the Lukather 'shine', roll with the RAW tone to begin with here. BUILD IT, do you here me ? And they will come. . . 
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumtown on August 30, 2021, 10:21:06 PM
I think if Roland want to promote new users to "hex processing" technology, they are going to have to re-design the GK3 & 13 pin cable, and come up with a totally new word for it, far removed from Midi.
A bit like the change away from the term "COSM"


"HEXACOIL" bridge pickups from Roland !!

revamp the GK-3 body with snap on styled covers, and supply both a LP and Strat style knob for it.
A/D converters under the pickup coils, and send a composite digital signal + power down a T/S jack plug and regular looking guitar cable.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: plexified on August 30, 2021, 11:14:09 PM

Bartolini had a hex pickup humbucker and pan output on the Kramer Ripley in 1985. It was stunning. And still is.

Demanding tech that is already here is almost a comic act.

Why abandon COSM now when we can fine tune micro pitch shift for each string ?

We are back to " each string" again here.

Nobody wants to go there because of cost.

Its not hard to figure this stuff out.

For me to be raw, or real is where we drive off the edge of this gracious board.

The tech has been here for decades. You, earthling don't get free energy because we (they) can't put a meter on it. A Pierce Arrow at 50 MPH on a generator that was perpetual was not a good Petrolium move if you wanted to govern the energy and practice eugenics.

Its  tech we demand thats 50 yrs past. No excuse.  Get Beevis in here  he will tell you, us. If not, we will have to go to Ben Rich. And then its OVER.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: plexified on August 30, 2021, 11:43:19 PM

To Separate the gear and the users and the tech and the $$$, I would suggest we all dive in. The first deal is that who is selling what and where. I did a quick drop and the billion club is healthy. The billion club is literally who is making billions in the music field. If you don't know who or wher how do you expect to figure it out ?

I put my $.02 in the mix so, marketing failed. We had chances and failed. I'm late to the party, last two years or three doing research in advance. People blew it They had the chance. Now its a matter of does my GR-55 Patch sound better than my FM-3 or so on. The answer is YES. Any patch, the next patch sounds better. Does it give me better control ? We will see. Its the same fight with 33% of your Guitar Improvement is Spent on Learning " The Next Best Thing " . Can you get that back ? No.

Twiddle away, its fun. And  Don't let me jack you with my fake and intentional statistic. I wanted to prod your thought. HOW IS YOUR TIME SPENT ?

I think we have it AMAZINGLY GOOD. So . . .

Cry. . .

Moan . . .

Pour Your Gurts Out . . .

We need you more than ever. . .

If you can't find music,

Make Music. . .

If You Can't Find Places To Make Music. . .

Throw Your Bed Out The  Window, Please Don't Hurt Others. . . .

Buddy Guy Is  A Good Start.

Or. . . .

You can always channel the . . .

Blues. .

One TIme . . .

A group thought about BB, ZZ, King and said that BB was taken and ZZ King ws at the Top.

ZZ Top.

So now, Go Play some " Brown Sugga " .

Call me Tuesday about 3Pm.

I should be ready for a pizza on the bbq about then, 7 minutes for a pizza.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumtown on August 31, 2021, 12:55:00 AM
I think you have lost me there, a bit over my head for this time of night (on my side of the world).  ???
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: philjynx on August 31, 2021, 01:06:51 AM
The grim thing about this is that we've all directed more traffic to RetardLand™
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: chrish on August 31, 2021, 07:47:08 AM
Quote from: philjynx on August 31, 2021, 01:06:51 AM
The grim thing about this is that we've all directed more traffic to RetardLand™
yea, we don't use that word any longer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-r-word/2011/06/06/AGISc3nH_story.html
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on September 14, 2021, 09:45:22 AM
Quote from: billbax on September 13, 2021, 05:45:17 PM
I ain't saying a thing...the latest GR-55 re-amping movie :D

https://youtu.be/tPnDFciBA28 (https://youtu.be/tPnDFciBA28)
http://www.separate-strings.co.uk/
Sadly many see words " Reamp with your GR-55" , then auto react with "that's well known to be impossible"

Sadly 80% of the world still thinks the GK 13 interface is 100% MIDI -and can not comprehend how any GK13 break out cables could function, as they remain firmly tied to their misbelief system that GK 13 is a MIDI Cable

Anytime I repost Bilbax Separate String Videos, there is always the errant reply from someone who insists this will never work.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on December 28, 2021, 07:10:43 PM



Tory Slusher demonstrating the Boss GP-10, and explains the GK 13 cable interface
https://youtu.be/bszseEr65Hk
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: coincident on April 23, 2022, 09:50:03 PM
Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: admin on April 23, 2022, 10:22:01 PM
Tell your friends.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: chrish on April 24, 2022, 07:05:52 AM
In the old days there was a VG8 on display at a music store along with a TV monitor set up playing a Roland VG8 tape to explained very well the VG8 was not midi but a new DSP guitar modeling technology.

The store clerk in the guitar section at this popular music store in Spokane, Wa. even knew what a VG8 was.

When I purchased the VG8 on closeout, the store gave me the tape which I still have.

Today we have youtube full of misinformation and not so clever reviews.

Enjoy your SY1000, its a monster machine.

One way to explore the synth patches is to turn off two instrument blocks and listen to the individual instrument block. Sometimes that's all you need.

Quote from: coincident on April 23, 2022, 09:50:03 PM
Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: GuitarBuilder on April 24, 2022, 07:35:05 AM
Quote from: chrish on April 24, 2022, 07:05:52 AM
Today we have youtube full of misinformation and not so clever reviews.

Amen, Chris!
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: bosetuno on April 25, 2022, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: coincident on April 23, 2022, 09:50:03 PM
Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.

I always thought the SY1000 would sell more as the powerfull amp+fx modeller it actualy is with extra synth sounds. A fair percentage of normal guitar users would then be temped to get a GK pickup to unleash the synth on it.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: Brak(E)man on October 10, 2022, 08:24:53 AM
Here's another one that should know better but.....
Synth pickup , 13 pin midi cable again..

https://youtu.be/fd66mec2gIQ
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: Best_Peasant on March 01, 2024, 11:21:50 PM
Great read for a novice like myself.
Hopefully I get a vg99 some day, after a read like this it makes the WANT greater!
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumtown on March 02, 2024, 02:24:47 PM
Quote from: gumtown on August 30, 2021, 10:21:06 PMI think if Roland want to promote new users to "hex processing" technology, they are going to have to re-design the GK3 & 13 pin cable, and come up with a totally new word for it, far removed from Midi.
A bit like the change away from the term "COSM"


"HEXACOIL" bridge pickups from Roland !!

revamp the GK-3 body with snap on styled covers, and supply both a LP and Strat style knob for it.
A/D converters under the pickup coils, and send a composite digital signal + power down a T/S jack plug and regular looking guitar cable.

Don't like to quote myself, but the later part of this did eventually turn out to come true !!
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: chrish on March 21, 2024, 06:28:54 PM
Since most of the GR series and now the GM track their internal PCM sample snippets sounds well with clean playing and good guitar setup, what is the process to trigger them?

I know that guitar pitch, pitch bend, velocity etc are eventually converted to midi out. And internal sounds ,except the GR55, can be triggered by midi in from another midi trigger device. Does that mean guitar pitch to midi is used to trigger the internal sounds?

I know some midi is transmitted using TRS cable so is the GK5  doing midi conversation at the guitar or just acting as an AD converter? I believe it the latter but just checking.
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: gumtown on March 24, 2024, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: chrish on March 21, 2024, 06:28:54 PMSince most of the GR series and now the GM track their internal PCM sample snippets sounds well with clean playing and good guitar setup, what is the process to trigger them?

I know that guitar pitch, pitch bend, velocity etc are eventually converted to midi out. And internal sounds ,except the GR55, can be triggered by midi in from another midi trigger device. Does that mean guitar pitch to midi is used to trigger the internal sounds?

I know some midi is transmitted using TRS cable so is the GK5  doing midi conversation at the guitar or just acting as an AD converter? I believe it the latter but just checking.

No one can say for sure what Roland/Boss do inside their units, but guitar to midi has to be assumed the process.
Not sure if there are other conversions at play, I would say so, as the PCM tones within the boxes seem to play a little bit more expressively than just midi to PCM, possibly a continuous velocity tracking parameter is involved.

I don't think there is any midi in the GK-5 or TRS cable, the GK-5 is just a hexa-phonic pickup and a 6 channel A/D converter, sending the digital multiplexed serial audio data down a balanced co-axial cable.
Guitar to midi would most definitely be done inside the GM-800, if it were done in the GK-5, that would make the GK-Serial eco-system useless for non-midi HRM modeling tasks of future devices.
Of course it is all speculation and opinion, but one fact of the GK-5 system is it uses a chip commonly used in automotive audio for streaming digital multi-channel audio (A2B protocol).
Title: Re: How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products
Post by: Elantric on March 24, 2024, 02:10:46 PM
The Boss GK-SERIAL Connection supports 8 Audio Inputs,  8 Audio Outputs, as well as GPIO control signals for volume and switch peripheral ( like GK S1,GK S2)

In 2024, more products will be released which directly support the  GK-SERIAL I/O connection