GP-10 - Possible Fix--Warbles

Started by sec6, October 12, 2017, 09:00:29 AM

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sec6

After purchasing an ATG-1, GI-20, and an RME aio soundcard (rme only provided 2 ms advantage over the GP-10) to duplicate the functionality of the GP-10, I decided I didn't need $1200 worth of gear to do what the GP-10 does quite well on its own so I sold it all without taking a loss and re-purchased a GP-10. But as I was quite used to external processing I decided to make an init file that has EVERYTHING turned off except for the alt-tuning and guitar modeling.  All 99 patches were replaced with this init file.  So, I use it solely for alt-tuning and guitar models and use other software for effects and amp modeling in my DAW. I created several alt-tuning patches with 335, nylon string, acoustics, sitar, fretless, etc.  I alt-tuned these +3, +7, -7, -5 with octave and fifth doubles.  Tested both my guitars, Les Paul DC with internal kit, and Ibanez RG420 GK, and I have absolutely no warbles (except for harmonics).  I am not sure the cause of the warble-free conditions (maybe it is the different GP-10). I could always force a warble with a C add 2 open chord, but cannot get it to warble under these conditions.  Attached is a live set with 99 init patches if you want to test. Be sure to backup your patches before overwriting with the 99 init patches. 

Majiken

This looks quite interesting! Please help me be sure I understand correctly: can you then add effects to the patches, or are you limited to alt. tunings & models (like the ATG)?
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

admin

#2
Quote from: Majiken on December 12, 2017, 04:21:50 PM
This looks quite interesting! Please help me be sure I understand correctly: can you then add effects to the patches, or are you limited to alt. tunings & models (like the ATG)?

DSP Alt Tuning has been available since the 1995 VG-8

All these accomplish DSP Alt Tuning:

VG-8

VG-88

Variax 500

Variax 700

VG-99

Tyler Variax

GR-55

GP-10

ATG-1 


The following allow you to build a DSP Alt Tuning patch with effects


VG-8

VG-88

VG-99

GR-55

GP-10

Here are dedicated DSP Alt Tuning patch areas  here

GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=77.0

VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=32.0


Rhcole

Thanks for this, I'll give it a try. The GP-10 warbles have reduced my use of it significantly. Have no idea why the FX etc. produce the warbles, though...  ::)

Majiken

Quote from: admsustainiac on December 12, 2017, 04:35:49 PM
DSP Alt Tuning has been available since the 1995 VG-8

All these accomplish DSP Alt Tuning:

VG-8

VG-88

Variax 500

Variax 700

VG-99

Tyler Variax

GR-55

GP-10

ATG-1 


The following allow you to build a DSP Alt Tuning patch with effects


VG-8

VG-88

VG-99

GR-55

GP-10

Here are dedicated DSP Alt Tuning patch areas  here

GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=77.0

VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=32.0



Steve, that wasn't my question- I have or had several pieces of the equipment over many years now, and use up to 6 tunings in the course of a normal gig.  What I want to know is, can you take a patch with the "init" setting, then add amp and FX to taste, or not?  If so, that would be close to perfect!  If not, you would in effect be turning a GP10 into an ATG-1 with a noticeably smaller footprint, which also has merit. Will try it out in a couple of days, just looking to see if the answer is already available to save testing time.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

admin

#5
Quote from: Majiken on December 13, 2017, 01:18:28 AM
Steve, that wasn't my question- I have or had several pieces of the equipment over many years now, and use up to 6 tunings in the course of a normal gig.  What I want to know is, can you take a patch with the "init" setting, then add amp and FX to taste, or not?  If so, that would be close to perfect!  If not, you would in effect be turning a GP10 into an ATG-1 with a noticeably smaller footprint, which also has merit. Will try it out in a couple of days, just looking to see if the answer is already available to save testing time.


Many use these boxes like a "Floor Variax"  - and use a setting that is transparent - no Amp sim just like SEC6 above
QuoteAfter purchasing an ATG-1, GI-20, and an RME aio soundcard (rme only provided 2 ms advantage over the GP-10) to duplicate the functionality of the GP-10, I decided I didn't need $1200 worth of gear to do what the GP-10 does quite well on its own so I sold it all without taking a loss and re-purchased a GP-10. But as I was quite used to external processing I decided to make an init file that has EVERYTHING turned off except for the alt-tuning and guitar modeling.  All 99 patches were replaced with this init file.  So, I use it solely for alt-tuning and guitar models and use other software for effects and amp modeling in my DAW.


Merman93 uses his GP-10 as Guitar Modeler / Alt Tuning only to feed his Kemper



https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11506.msg85389#msg85389
QuoteI am so happy with the improvements in noise floor that Elantric elaborated on in his posts.

I have integrated my GP-10 into my system at the front end with an A/B, running into my Ground Control Loop Switching System, allowing use of all my normal effects etc. then on to Kemper and 2 Tech 21 Power Engines. See pic.(grrrr i wish I could figure why it won't post correctly,...sorry, at least if you click the pic it opens up correctly).

My girlfriend is sooo pissed off at me as I told her I would be up in recording loft all weekend tweaking the GP-10,... I am THAT impressed with it !!!

admin

#6
Quote from: Rhcole on December 12, 2017, 10:29:16 PM
Thanks for this, I'll give it a try. The GP-10 warbles have reduced my use of it significantly. Have no idea why the FX etc. produce the warbles, though...  ::)
What was your guitar type? and GK PU type?

This "GP-10 Alt tuning Warble issue  varies from user to user and guitar type  - Myself I use my GP-10 a lot, and never have warble issues at the gig with alt tunings -  using a Godin xtSA or Tyler JTV-69 with GK-3

Thats true for others as well
Quote
After purchasing an ATG-1, GI-20, and an RME aio soundcard (rme only provided 2 ms advantage over the GP-10) to duplicate the functionality of the GP-10, I decided I didn't need $1200 worth of gear to do what the GP-10 does quite well on its own so I sold it all without taking a loss and re-purchased a GP-10. But as I was quite used to external processing I decided to make an init file that has EVERYTHING turned off except for the alt-tuning and guitar modeling.  All 99 patches were replaced with this init file.  So, I use it solely for alt-tuning and guitar models and use other software for effects and amp modeling in my DAW.

Rhcole

I have two guitars, both with piezo. One is a Godin Freeway SA with a Ghost, the other a LGX-SA with the RMC. Both have bad alt-tune warbles.

alexmcginness

I still only get warbles on one of my guitars. The others work warble free. The one that warbles does so on only the A string open to the 4th or 5th fret.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

bbob

#9
Could the warbles possibly be induced by the mag pickups adjusted too high.


admin

#10
Quote from: bbob on December 13, 2017, 09:19:08 AM
Could the warbles possibly be induced by mag pickups adjusted too high.

Yes - thats a likely culprit that can contribute to this issue
QuoteIf you want more output, raise the pickup closer to the strings. But be careful; get too close and the pickup's magnetic field can pull too hard on the strings causing an unpleasant sound and interfering with string vibration. If you need more output than that, you'll need a higher output pickup.

https://sites.psu.edu/ayh5368/files/2016/01/Technical_Definition__Description-24rrog7.pdf

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/tips-tricks-adjusting-your-pickups-fine-tune-your-sound

http://www.harmonycentral.com/articles/whats-the-optimum-guitar-pickup-height

The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups
http://apguitars.com/?p=120



alexmcginness

Quote from: admsustainiac on December 13, 2017, 09:27:04 AM
Yes - thats a likely culprit that can contribute to this issue
https://sites.psu.edu/ayh5368/files/2016/01/Technical_Definition__Description-24rrog7.pdf

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/tips-tricks-adjusting-your-pickups-fine-tune-your-sound

http://www.harmonycentral.com/articles/whats-the-optimum-guitar-pickup-height

The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups
http://apguitars.com/?p=120

Just checked the one guitar that has the warbles and the hex is the recommended distance away from the strings. This is baffling me as well. I only get it on one of my guitars and only on one string on the first few frets. I cant figure it out.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

admin

#12
Quote from: alexmcginness on December 13, 2017, 10:21:13 AM
Just checked the one guitar that has the warbles and the hex is the recommended distance away from the strings. This is baffling me as well. I only get it on one of my guitars and only on one string on the first few frets. I cant figure it out.

I'm not talking about the GK-3 PU - that should be approx 20-25 mm away from the bridge, and GK PU height should be 1mm gap under the strings

Its the Normal Mag PU's if adjusted too high  / too close the strings that will have a negative impact, causing String warbles.

Typical problem issue on  Stratocasters with Neck  / Mid PU's are adjusted too close to the strings - delivers a chorus warbling like effect and poor Boss GP-10 DSP Alt Tuning warbles too.


old timers might recall that Leslie West always removed the Neck PU from his guitars - he did this to minimize Magnetic flux dampening his strings which might decrease the Sustain on his Flying V, so he could  match the sustain of his old 1959 LP "TV" Junior


     

Brak(E)man

What I can't understand is why it's only GP10 that warbles for me and with all of my GK1,2,3 guitars but not VG8,88,99 (not that the alt tune always sounds great but no warbles)
( maybe I'm thick but I don't get it )
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

Quote from: admsustainiac on December 13, 2017, 10:29:18 AM
I'm not talking about the GK-3 PU - that should be approx 20-25 mm away from the bridge, and GK PU height should be 1mm gap under the strings

Its the Normal Mag PU's if adjusted too high  / too close the strings that will have a negative impact, causing String warbles.

Typical problem issue on  Stratocasters with Neck  / Mid PU's are adjusted too close to the strings - delivers a chorus warbling like effect and poor Boss GP-10 DSP Alt Tuning warbles too.


old timers might recall that Leslie West always removed the Neck PU from his guitars - he did this to minimize Magnetic flux dampening his strings which might decrease the Sustain on his Flying V, so he could  match the sustain of his old 1959 LP Junior
   

The one guitar that has the warbles has no guitar pickups on it. Its a Traveler escape MKII steel. Its got a piezo under the bridge and a gk3 on it and that's it. My two Strats, Flying V and a Les Paul all have no warbles.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

admin

Quote from: alexmcginness on December 13, 2017, 11:17:49 AM
The one guitar that has the warbles has no guitar pickups on it. Its a Traveler escape MKII steel. Its got a piezo under the bridge and a gk3 on it and that's it. My two Strats, Flying V and a Les Paul all have no warbles.

It remains elusive as to why some Gk guitars warble with GP10 Alt Tuining - while others do not

admin

#16
Quote from: alexmcginness on December 13, 2017, 10:21:13 AM
Just checked the one guitar that has the warbles and the hex is the recommended distance away from the strings. This is baffling me as well. I only get it on one of my guitars and only on one string on the first few frets. I cant figure it out.

I'm not talking about the GK-3 PU - that should be approx 20-25 mm away from the bridge, and GK PU height should be 1mm gap under the strings

Its the Normal Mag PU's if adjusted too high  / too close the strings that will have a negative impact, causing String warbles.

Typical problem issue on  Stratocasters with Neck  / Mid PU's are adjusted too close to the strings - delivers a chorus warbling like effect and poor Boss GP-10 DSP Alt Tuning warbles too.


I was reviewing other sites , and was reminded that one source for DSP Alt Tuning Warbles is often unrelated to the hex PU system, but is actually due to Magnetic flux pull on the strings , from your Normal Guitar pickups height being placed too close to the strings.


https://hazeguitars.com/blog/problems-due-to-pickup-height
PROBLEMS DUE TO PICKUP HEIGHT
If you're a guitarist or bassist who adjusts or sets up your own instruments, I'm about to make a sweeping statement about you, so forgive me...

Your pickups are too high.

Well, probably.

I find that most players have realised that moving a pickup closer to the strings usually results in more output.

So we clench our fists and shout, "POWER!!!" before raising our pickup height.

But life's not all about raw power. Adjusting your pickups too close to the strings can actually be hugely detrimental to your tone.

Pickups too close to strings can cause a number of problems

BAD VIBES
Your strings are ferromagnetic. They have to be in order to work effectively. Their vibration in the pickup's magnetic field is what makes that sweet, sweet music come out of your amp. It's a joy; a triumph of science and rock 'n' roll.

But there's a drawback.

As well as the strings acting on the pickup's magnetic field, that magnetic field can also act on the string.

Adjusted too close, the magnetic field can interfere with the strings' vibration.

If that happens, you've got problems. Problems like...

Loss Of Sustain
If the pickup's magnet pulls on a vibrating string, it can actually kill off that vibration too quickly. You push that pickup up to get power but you sacrifice sustain because the magnetic field deadens the string vibration.

Bummer.

Fret Buzz
Really.

It's not something you'd normally think of but pickup magnets can deflect the vibrating string's pattern so much it rattles off your frets.

Honestly. Seriously. Why would I lie?

I've seen this tons of times. Pickups themselves can be enough to make a string buzz. If you've got some fret buzz that seems to defy any other explanation, try lowering your pickups. See what happens.

Weird Noises, Effects, And Overtones
When the strings vibration is pulled out of whack, the result can be some odd noises and overtones on certain notes. These manifest in different ways but, most often, you'll hear a warbling or chorussing effect after the note.

It's more prevalent on Strats but you can get these 'wolf tones' on other instruments too.

If you're hearing crazy stuff you can't explain, look to your pickup height.

Tuning And Intonation Issues
Again, that deflected vibration pattern can do weird things to a note's tuning. You might have strange intonation problems on some strings or in some areas.

And, if you've problems getting a tuner to 'settle' when you play a note, it could be because the string's being pulled by the pickup.

FIXING A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST
In the olden days, players had to eke every last bit of power from their guitars in order to push an amp to overdrive. That's one of the reasons aftermarket pickups began being offered in hotter and hotter versions.

Not so much any more.

It's much easier to coax an amp to drive now. Most of us have more than enough gain and distortion on tap and there's a huge choice of boost effects to give your signal an extra kick if needed.

Vintage or low-output pickups are not a problem. Quite the opposite, in fact — many of these can sound much better than their hotter cousins in lots of situations.

Same goes for adjusting pickups too high. Even if it didn't cause a multitude of problems, it's probably not even necessary.

SO HOW HIGH SHOULD A PICKUP BE?
Hard to say... Depends... Use ears...

Yeah, I know. That's not terribly satisfying but there are many differences between pickups and it's pretty much impossible to give a complete chart.

As a starting point/rule-of-thumb sort of thing, though, I'd advise the following:

Don't set humbuckers closer than 4/64" (1.6mm)
Don't set Fender-type pickups closer than 6/64" (2.4mm)
Don't set P-Bass closer than 6/64"(2.4mm) and J-Bass closer than 5/64" (2mm)
Other pickups will probably be somewhere around these figures, although it's worth noting that hotter pickups can have very powerful magnets and will often need to be a lot lower.
Now, of course, these are guidelines. You might want to adjust your pickups higher, and that may be right for your instrument and pickups. Do be very aware of the issues noted above, though. It's very rare that I go higher than these.

For measuring string-to-pickup distance, fret that string at the last fret and measure from the pickup pole to the bottom of the string.

Yeah, this one's too high. 

A NOTE ON ACTIVE AND 'ALTERNATIVE' PICKUPS
Active pickups — like EMGs — and pickups like the Lace Sensors operate a bit differently. They've lower-powered magnets and/or differently 'shaped' magnetic fields. They don't pull on the strings in the same way as 'regular' pickups and can be adjusted really close without too much of a problem.

It's not too much of an overstatement to say you can raise these until they get in your way.

THE SWEET SPOT
It'll exist for your guitar and pickups. Somewhere there's a nice height that gets enough output from the strings without interfering with their vibration. It will take a bit of experimentation but it's worth it.

Go. Use your ears. Use them, I say.

THE BOTTOM LINE
The TL;DR story on pickup height is don't put them too close to your pickups.

However, there's obviously a bit more nuance here and you should trust your ears. Use the figures above as a guideline for minimum string-to-pickup distance and adjust things according to what you hear.

https://hazeguitars.com/blog/problems-due-to-pickup-height

admin

Adding the short 1/4" cable "Grounds" the guitar strings to the GK-3 - important for achieving lowest noise and best results
This hum is often silenced by the GP-10 internal Noise Suppressor , but wreaks havoc on DSP Alt Tunings = warbles
Further improvement occurs by wax potting the GK PU - reduces rattles from the variable radius system