GK3 Internal Kit and Piezo undersaddle pickup on the same volume pot?

Started by Mr.DeeR, March 02, 2023, 12:34:28 AM

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Mr.DeeR

Hi Guys,

I have just bought my first GK3 internal Kit for my "experimental" guitar. It already has an active piezo system underneath the saddle.

I am still figuring out the most optimal way to install the midi pickup and noticed that the volume pot value is exactly the same as the piezo volume. B50K

Before I start drilling I would like to ask you guys if any of you has tried to mix them? Would it be possible to use them both on the same volume control?

gumtownadmin

The GK Volume pot is a voltage controller used by the unit your GK analog hexaphonic guitar pickup and controls connect to.
If you use something like a GR-55 or SY-1000 with your GK guitar, the unit's programming can determine if both the GK processed modeled instrument/synth and/or the normal pickup tone will be mix and controlled by the single GK Volume controller.
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.

Mr.DeeR

Thanks for the quick reply, Sir.

Yes, my plan is to use it with SY-1000. To be honest, I haven't bought the unit yet but I will soon. Hopefully, I can figure out the rest later.

By the way, I feel a bit guilty not to be clear in my first post and I should have mentioned that I want to keep the signals separate from each other(Piezo/Magnetic/Midi). I didn't meant to say I want to "mix them". I was referring to have one master volume. Stupid me. I am sorry for the misinformation.

After doing some research I found what I need. It's called "dual gang volume pot". To have one master volume for the midi and piezo pickup but send their signal in a separate path.

Which brings me to my second question. I would like to skip the toggle switch and I am trying to find some guidance how to install the GK pickup without it. I am assuming I will need to solder some pins together on the PCB. Do you have any advice where can I find further info on this?


Brak(E)man

Quote from: Mr.DeeR on March 02, 2023, 03:33:50 AMTo have one master volume for the midi and piezo pickup but send their signal in a separate path.

Which brings me to my second question. I would like to skip the toggle switch and I am trying to find some guidance how to install the GK pickup without it.

Imho you should reconsider having the toogle Normal PU / Mix / Hexaphonic PU.
It's very handy, I'd say especially with SY-1000. So be sure before you leave it out.
In any case, good luck with your project.

Also not to be nitpicking but to avoid any confusion.
The "midi" pickup you're referring to has nothing to do with midi.
It's an analogue hexaphonic magnetic Pickup that can be used in various manners.


See thread https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0

QuotelThe Boss / Roland GK-3 converts your guitar notes into MIDI data, and using a standard 13 pin connection, triggers MIDI audio from one of their devices - such as the GP-10, or the older VG-99, or the GR-55." "The above is flat wrong !"

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?msg=101908


QuoteIt's not a Midi pickup or Midi system or a synth Mic.
The PU itself has nothing to do with midi.
It is a hexaphonic humbucker (note analog microphone), 1 magnet per string, which is used to send signals from separate strings, for example, to a guitar synth/instrument modeler such as the SY-1000, which is based on real-time modeling, or a hexaphonic fuzz/dist such as Spicetone
https://liveweb.spicetone.com/6appeal/
Or to a converter for guitar to Midi or to play PCM sampling etc.

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

gumtown

What I have done in the past with a GK-Kit toggle switch is to leave it connected in the "both" position, and tucked into the guitar cavity.
That way, you wont lose the switch and connector if required later.  ;)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Mr.DeeR

Quote from: Brak(E)man on March 02, 2023, 05:22:22 AMImho you should reconsider having the toogle Normal PU / Mix / Hexaphonic PU.
It's very handy, I'd say especially with SY-1000. So be sure before you leave it out.
In any case, good luck with your project.

Also not to be nitpicking but to avoid any confusion.
The "midi" pickup you're referring to has nothing to do with midi.
It's an analogue hexaphonic magnetic Pickup that can be used in various manners.


See thread https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?msg=101908




I have two reason to object to this. 1. I really hate installing new knobs and switches on my instrument. I just can't stand the look of it. Guitars with too many controls look "offensive" to me. 2. My amp can handle to input. I want to run my normal guitar rig and SY-1000 in a separate channel.

I don't think the toggle switch would add much benefit to my setup. Unless I am missing something?

Also, thanks for the correction and apologies for my ignorance. I am just starting out my journey in the world of midi and not familiar with the technical details yet.

Mr.DeeR

Quote from: gumtown on March 02, 2023, 03:30:33 PMWhat I have done in the past with a GK-Kit toggle switch is to leave it connected in the "both" position, and tucked into the guitar cavity.
That way, you wont lose the switch and connector if required later.  ;)


Not a bad idea but as I started to age, I am more careful where I place my stuff. Hopefully, I will still remember it when I reach age of 60. But just in case I am going to leave a note to my future self: it's in the bottom drawer of your bedside table!!! REMEMBER!

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Mr.DeeR on March 03, 2023, 12:27:14 AMI have two reason to object to this. 1. I really hate installing new knobs and switches on my instrument. I just can't stand the look of it. Guitars with too many controls look "offensive" to me. 2. My amp can handle to input. I want to run my normal guitar rig and SY-1000 in a separate channel.

I don't think the toggle switch would add much benefit to my setup. Unless I am missing something?

Also, thanks for the correction and apologies for my ignorance. I am just starting out my journey in the world of midi and not familiar with the technical details yet.

If you at some point find ( as many of us do ) that SY-1000 can uphold both the synth side and well as being your guitarrig (see normal path and instrument/synth paths) ( instead of your current guitar rig ), you'll find that switching between the guitar rig in SY and the synth/instruments modeling side or mix both is very convenient.
I for one do not use a normal rig and I've been playing professionally live since -76 , so I grew up with old school guitar rigs ( Marshall, fender etc ) and didn't switch over until I got vg-8 in the late 90ths .
Before that I also used a midi guitar ( casio mg 510 guitar which does put out midi straight from the guitar ( the PU is still a analog hexaphonic PU though ) , still have it ) with synths + 3 guitar amps + a small PA.
I find that I don't need it and have not played with a "real " amp since I got the VG8

Also you don't have to apologize for not knowing.
I was trying to clarify both for you but also mainly for others who might read the thread and not being aware of the difference with the "midi" PU.
You're not alone though, most guitar players but also people who sells this stuff and or are in customer support doesn't know the difference which is remarkable to say the least.
Most guitar players associate midi ( or pcm ) triggering with latency, glitches etc where as the current technology with real time non midi modeling have almost zero latency and not many issues with the latter.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Mr.DeeR

Quote from: Brak(E)man on March 03, 2023, 02:49:14 AMIf you at some point find ( as many of us do ) that SY-1000 can uphold both the synth side and well as being your guitarrig (see normal path and instrument/synth paths) ( instead of your current guitar rig ), you'll find that switching between the guitar rig in SY and the synth/instruments modeling side or mix both is very convenient.
I for one do not use a normal rig and I've been playing professionally live since -76 , so I grew up with old school guitar rigs ( Marshall, fender etc ) and didn't switch over until I got vg-8 in the late 90ths .
Before that I also used a midi guitar ( casio mg 510 guitar which does put out midi straight from the guitar ( the PU is still a analog hexaphonic PU though ) , still have it ) with synths + 3 guitar amps + a small PA.
I find that I don't need it and have not played with a "real " amp since I got the VG8

Also you don't have to apologize for not knowing.
I was trying to clarify both for you but also mainly for others who might read the thread and not being aware of the difference with the "midi" PU.
You're not alone though, most guitar players but also people who sells this stuff and or are in customer support doesn't know the difference which is remarkable to say the least.
Most guitar players associate midi ( or pcm ) triggering with latency, glitches etc where as the current technology with real time non midi modeling have almost zero latency and not many issues with the latter.


Hmmm, you might be onto something. As I have mentioned before I don't own an SY-1000 just yet. Maybe I will find it as useful as you. But before drilling extra holes I need to test it myself with my setup. In the meantime I will keep the toggle switch and other parts safe in my drawer.

By the way, I have just placed the order and my SY-1000 should arrive next week. I paid £779 which I consider very reasonable. But I noticed that the prices in UK fluctuate quite a bit. Ranging from £780-1000 for a brand new unit. I am wondering why is that? Have I managed to catch a sale or the price is dropping?

Also, I am trying to prepare my guitar for the SY1000's arrival. I found the schematic for pickup only installation. Apparently, I only need to keep the white and black wire that needs to be grounded and the yellow and green wire that will be looped together. See picture.

Can someone confirm it if it is correct?

Edit: I am not sure why the picture didn't appear but here is a link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fl5FnZBaa9Z4DPa7rZcPwsW7P--uIN37/view?usp=sharing It's the CN4 Connection




admin

What specific connector is this from and where is it going

Color code is not always consistent  on these instruments

Accurate GK-KIT-GT3 schematic


Mr.DeeR

It is the connector where the S1/S2 and the toggle switch is connected to. Since I don't want to install those parts I decided to disconnect them. ( I can always add them back later). According to the schematic I found I should only keep those wires I mentioned before.

admin

Quote from: Mr.DeeR on March 03, 2023, 06:40:13 AMIt is the connector CN4 where the S1/S2 and the toggle switch is connected to. Since I don't want to install those parts I decided to disconnect them. ( I can always add them back later). According to the schematic I found I should only keep those wires I mentioned before.


In that case,  just do not connect anything to connector CN4

The circuit acts by referencing to ground the unselected position of 3-way Guitar /Mix/ Synth switch - leaving it unconnected results in " Mix " position

If do not want S1/ S2- = no connection to CN4

GC-1 schematic is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133.0;attach=17948
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

Mr.DeeR

Quote from: admin on March 03, 2023, 07:34:12 AMIn that case,  just do not connect anything to connector CN4

The circuit acts by referencing to ground the unselected position of 3-way Guitar /Mix/ Synth switch - leaving it unconnected results in " Mix " position

If do not want S1/ S2- = no connection to CN4

GC-1 schematic is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133.0;attach=17948
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0

Thanks for the input. That's new to me. I have a schematic where it shows to leave the green/yellow/black/white wires.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bple1LVHCHbRHkSeDSLUMqgopR-2wnNF/view?usp=sharing

I will try your method first to see if it is working without CN4 connection

Elantric