ROLAND - Internal GK-KIT-GT3 Installation questions

Started by chipstar, January 30, 2008, 01:40:21 PM

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Virtual Madness

Virtual Madness Wrote: "I'm trying to find some photos online of the step by step process (or any, really) of installing a GK-2A internal kit in a stock Strat."

THEN Virtual Madness Wrote: "The Roland Ready Strat would be a perfect solution for me, but I have never been able to get along well with Strats."

Sustaniac Wrote: Oh - now I totally understand  ???
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry for the confusion! (I'm laughing at myself right now!)

If i may, let me explain myself..I have been playing a vintage Telecaster exclusively since my first recording sessions in 1977 up to late 2008 when i bought a Roland Ready Fender Stratocaster so i could A/B the sound of the Roland GK-2A against a piezo equipped Telecaster that i was already using with the VG-99..well..the conclusion that i came to, was that the VG-99 sounds better (to me) with the Roland GK-2A than it does with the Graph Tech piezo saddles..that should have been the end of it, but try as i might i just can't get used to the Strat after playing the Tele all these years..it's not the Strat i don't like, more specifically, it's the tummy cut and forearm contour i don't like.

Sustainiac Wrote: "What Guitar do you have in Mind for YOUR GK-3 internal install?"

I'm going to have a Strat body made for me (i told you it wasn't the Strat!  ;)) that doesn't have the tummy cut or forearm contour, and that's why i was asking about being able to fit the Roland electronics inside a stock Strat..I wanted to find out so i can tell the builder how i need it routed!

After i read all you had to say about the installation details and horror stories of it being done wrong, $500.00 sounds like a deal!  :-[

Thanks for that link to the RMC Pickup installation luthier list, that's a great resource to have.

I have a question for you sustainiac..i would love if my guitar could have a Volume and Tone control for my REAL Pickups, AND a Volume and Tone control for my VIRTUAL pickups..is there any way to do this?
Since i'm going to be using the electronics from the Roland Ready Strat, that means pin 9 will still be open..could that be used in any way for this?

You mentioned using the Yamaha G1D GK PU..I have the schematic for that pickup here, let me know if you want a copy of it, and if so, where i should send it.

I'm was going to try to get the schematic for the GK-2A GK PU from Roland..Do you think i need it if i have the schematic for the Yamaha G1D GK PU?..in other words are they more or less the same pickup?

Thanks for all the info and help on these things, i really appreciate it  :) Royce
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

Elantric

#51
The G1D's schematic is nearly identical to the old GK-2A - as Roland has a specific spec which all the manufacturers were supposed match for sensitivity, impedance, etc. The Gk-3 introduced the PIN 9 voltage changes for each position of the Guitar/Mix/Synth switch - its not used on any gear made today. perhaps it will be employed on the VG-100 in 2011.

Personally - I hate the sound of Piezos feeding a VG-99 - I always hear this brittle high end distortion that sounds like a cat clawing on a chalkboard. Its like plugging an Ovation Acoustic with Piezo into your nice tube guitar amp - ouch. And i have RMC, Ghost, Baggs, Fishman - each have that piercing piezo quality.
By contrast the GK-2A, , GK3 , G1D sound more smooth to my ears - as I tend to shooot for more old school vintage tones.
BTW - Bill Rupert who gets any sound imaginable out of his VG-99 uses an Ibanez with a Roland GK PU strung with .008" gauge strings


Having been there done that with the GK internal Kit.

if i were building a guitar today i would compare all GK mag hex PUs.

*Yamaha G1D (same as old Axon PU)
*Roland GK2A
*Roland GK-3
*Axon/Seymour Duncan Hex PU


And find the one that had the best E to E spacing match for my desired bridge.

THen I would tear it apart and put the guts inside my guitar
This guy did the same thing and created complete plans - download here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42.0;attach=60



The electronic "guts" circuit of G1D is identical to GK-2A
To add your VG-99 Tone control
Install a 10K linear pot feed its middle tap to Pin 9 on GK 13 cable to a custom DIY 13 pin break out box or RMC  Fanout box and take the Pin 9 signal via 1/4" plug and feed the VG-99 Expression pedal Jack Input - then Map it any function you like. 

I grew up playing Gibson's with 24.75" scale length, and tighter E to E bridge spacing - and recently got a Gibson Dark Fire,

So I hardly play my Fender 25.5" scale length instruments any more. I can get better string vibrato with the Gibsons. or a Gretsch ( 25" scale length)

The longer Fender scale length just makes it hard for me - everybody has unique persective.

Anyway

Virtual Madness

#52
I love your description of the piezo tone with the VG-99: "Its like plugging an Ovation Acoustic with Piezo into your nice tube guitar amp - ouch"  That's EXACTLY what it sounds like!  :)

I prefer vintage tones too..it's one of my goals (when work slows down a little bit!) to program the VG-99 to get some of my favorite Beatles guitar tones (especially "Revolver" era) as well as Clapton's tones from the Bluesbreakers LP.

Thanks for that info on how to use pin 9 to have another parameter be controlled from my guitar..I've been wondering about that info for some time now..I didn't even know if it was possible, so your info really got my spirits up!..Luckily, I have an RMC Fanout box so i won't have to get anything but the 10K linear pot to do it.

I know what you're saying about the Gibson scale length, I recently got out my old 1964 Fender Duo-Sonic II with the 24 inch scale, and i've been having a blast playing it!..it makes the Strat and Tele feel too big when i switch back to playing them.

Congratulations on your Gibson Dark Fire guitar!..I haven't had the pleasure of playing one of those yet.

Got your PM, i'm on it..Thanks again, Royce  :)
The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

mignolyx


embers

I had a luthier fit my GK-3 into my American Hardtail Strat. He broke the pickguard, which I had to redo myself (he replaced it) and he drilled out the fitting for the 13 pin slightly off centre. He also charged about 500 AUD for the job. The circuit board fits under the volume and tone pots (provided you don't have something that sits deep in the cavity, like a TBX pot). To keep it clean, I did not fit the LED and I used a toggle of the same size as the one included for pickup selection (off in the middle and momentarily on either side). I fitted covers on the toggles from: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/toggleswitchcvr.php

Despite the drama, I believe that an internal GK is a more aesthetically pleasing approach.

embers

I forgot to say that I would NOT recommend cutting out the pick-guard around the hex pickup. If you want your action to be ultra-low, this may not work for you unless you have a micro-tilt adjustable neck. I can get my action down pretty low without using this adjustment (but I also want it slightly higher than my other mag PU Strat because I want to be able to play slide using the alternate tunings).

yellow napkins

hi,

i just managed to install an gk-3 internal kit into my steinberger spirit.
it was a nightmare and took me like 12 hours, lot of routing, very limited space available in that little
guitar, strange kind of wood, etc.
anyway, everything works, but the normal guitar sound, or maybe i don´t understand it.

with the Guitar/Mix/Gk switch set to Gk, o.k.
with the Guitar/Mix/Gk switch set to Mix, o.k.
with the Guitar/Mix/Gk switch set to Guitar, no sound at all.

it´s no big deal because i don´t use the normal pick ups, just wanted to know if did something wrong.
everything else ( S1, S2, volume ) works fine.

chris



VG-8, VG-99, ATG-1, GP-10, SY-1000, Kemper

aliensporebomb

I don't have an answer to your question but I just wanted to congratulate you on your excellent looking
professional looking GK3 installation.

I might have an idea though, I believe most VG-99 patches are set to have your regular pickup volume set
to 0 internally if I remember right so you'd have to edit that so the patch has the regular pickups turned up
and then save that so it remembers it.

In my own case I do a slightly different process in that I run my standard pickups thru my regular guitar
setup and then run that out in stereo into a mixer and take the VG-99 stereo outs into the same mixer
and then run that to house or a Roland JC120.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

yellow napkins

thanks!  8)

the volume for the normal pick up is set to 50, otherwise i wouldn´t hear the normal pickup´s in the middle/mix position of the selector switch.

just found out that switching to "guitar" with the select switch turns the patch volume in the mixer section down to zero.  ???

the regular pick up signal is than still available on the guitar out jack on the vg-99.

when i connect my strat with a external gk-3 i can still use the vg as a effect and amp modeler just using the 13-pin cable.

somebody with an internal gk-3 kit could check this for me, please?
VG-8, VG-99, ATG-1, GP-10, SY-1000, Kemper

yellow napkins

VG-8, VG-99, ATG-1, GP-10, SY-1000, Kemper

lansae

Has anyone combined a Roland GK Internal Kit with Ghost or RMC PUs on a strat and gotten HEX output successfully?
I've had the Internal with the Roland PU for years now but it would be great to attch that PU wire to individ bridge pieces - or is it a pipe dream?

vanceg

Quote from:  lansae on November 21, 2009, 12:31:27 PM
Has anyone combined a Roland GK Internal Kit with Ghost or RMC PUs on a strat and gotten HEX output successfully?
I've had the Internal with the Roland PU for years now but it would be great to attch that PU wire to individ bridge pieces - or is it a pipe dream?

So, you want to ditch the GK pickup and replace it with Piezo pickups, right?  And you want to use the GK's preamp and 13pin output which is currently already wired in your guitar to connect the Piezos to? 
Hmmm. Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible, but I REALLY wouldn't recommend it: The preamp that you have installed now is tweaked for the Roland pickup (a magnetic pickup).  If you attach Piezo's to that preamp, I don't know what's it's going to sound like...and the volume may be way off.  Why in the world would you not purchase the preamp and 13pin output jack that comes with the Ghost or RMCs and just replace the whole system?

Vance

biese

Hi.

Does anybody know what you can leave out of the gk3 internal installation. I only need the GK volume and would be happy to minimize the work by leaving out the gk/guitar selector and S1 S2 switches etc. I am only going to use it as a gk guitar and don't need access to the original pickups.

Thanks

vanceg

I've never done this, but it seems entirely possible because the S1 S2 and GK/Guitar selectors are simply buttons and a switch that attach to the main little GK control board itself.  I would think the WORST case scenario would be that you might have to jumper a couple of pins on the GK board together to simulate the GK/guitar selector switch being in the "GK" position. 

Elantric - what do you think?

Vance

Quote from:  biese on February 03, 2010, 10:52:28 AM
Hi.

Does anybody know what you can leave out of the gk3 internal installation. I only need the GK volume and would be happy to minimize the work by leaving out the gk/guitar selector and S1 S2 switches etc. I am only going to use it as a gk guitar and don't need access to the original pickups.

Thanks

Elantric


paults

You can skip the switches if you like, but, if the guitar already has extra holes, you may as well include S1 and S2.  You're giving up a lot of on-board control if you leave them off.    A trip to the hardware store will get you some washers to use as adapters to mount the switches in the existing holes.

 



MCK

Since they are On/Off/On switches they are Off in the mid position which means not connecting the switch to the circuit board leaves the circuit in exact same state as if S1/S2 is in the middle. I also had a case where I did not need the GK/PU selector but didn't want to disconnect it either so I left it inside the cavity. Doesn't take much space. Just set it to the setting you prefer.

Kevin M

Quote from:  paults on February 03, 2010, 04:11:02 PM
You can skip the switches if you like, but, if the guitar already has extra holes, you may as well include S1 and S2.  You're giving up a lot of on-board control if you leave them off.    A trip to the hardware store will get you some washers to use as adapters to mount the switches in the existing holes.

 




I would use the S1, S2 switches.  These functions can be combined into one single pole/double throw (I think that's right, but can someone verify) switch which might make for a cleaner install.

Elantric

QuoteI would use the S1, S2 switches.  These functions can be combined into one single pole/double throw (I think that's right, but can someone verify)


yes - you can use whats called

(on)-off-(on)

the parentheses =  momentary spring loaded actions


Like this one

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NKK-Switches/M2028SS1W01-RO/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsqIr59i2oRcgsEHt03K3JtXFSrP7dexUY%3d


Center = the default setting at rest

click it "Up" = S1

click it "Down" = S2

its spring loaded and returns to center position when released.

They used this type switch in the Ibanez RG-1520G with  13pin Output  

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73.0;attach=106;image

embers

Yes. You can definitely use a single switch. I used one on my Strat instead of having to fit both buttons.

Virtual Madness

#70
Quote from:  Elantric on February 07, 2009, 06:00:15 PM
To add your VG-99 Tone Control install a 10K linear pot feed its middle tap to Pin 9 on GK 13 cable to a custom DIY 13 pin break out box or RMC Fanout box and take the Pin 9 signal via 1/4" plug and feed the VG-99 Expression pedal Jack Input - then Map it any function you like.

Hey Elantric, (or anybody else who can answer!)
Sorry to trouble you with this, but i have a few more questions.

1. Do i have to connect one of the lugs on the 10K pot to ground?..i was experimenting last night by touching the wire from the middle tap to all the pins on the underside of the 13 pin jack while being plugged into the VG-99, and i was unable to get it to function.

2. Which one of these pins in the photo of the underside of the 13 pin jack is pin 9?, and is soldering the only way to connect to it?

3. Does the 1/4 cable that runs from the pin 9 output of the RMC Fanout box to the VG-99 need to be stereo?

Thanks for helping, Royce

The greatest power in the universe is imagination!

embers

This Roland instruction pdf for the GK KIT may be helpful.

embers

I found this about the 13 pin connector assignments, can you trace the wires back from that.

DIN-13 PINOUT
Please find below the pinout protocol for DIN-13 connectors.
Pin 1 = String 1
Pin 2 = String 2
Pin 3 = String 3
Pin 4 = String 4
Pin 5 = String 5
Pin 6 = String 6
Pin 7 = mono guitar signal
Pin 8 = synth volume
Pin 9 = no connection
Pin 10 = switch 1
Pin 11 = switch 2
Pin 12 = +7VDC power
Pin 13 = -7VDC power
Sleeve = Ground

FRONT VIEW OF JACK (FEMALE CONECTOR)

4 3 2 1

8 7 6 5

12 11 10 9

13



ganderpe

Hello VM,
when I was installed the GK-3 internal into my very new Eric Johnson Strat, I had quite wet fingers!  :-)
What helped me a lot is the vidoe on youtube from graphtech, where they explain their installation!



Specially for the woodwork!

Good Luck!

Peter
Fender Stratocaster Eric Johnson, GK-internal,  VG-99 fw1.04, FC-300

clamhands

#74
Quote from: Virtual Madness on February 07, 2009, 11:27:11 AM

WOW Sustainiac, $500.00 LABOR!..Maybe I just don't understand what all has to be done, or how long it takes, but that price for labor alone seems awfully high!

If anybody else reading this thread has had their internal Roland electronics professionally installed,
what were your experiences like, and how much were you charged?


I had a Graphtech Floyd Rose bridge and Hexpander installed into one of my "superstrat" guitars (you can read about it here-  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,731.msg12716.html#msg12716). The installation was very similar to the GK installation (same toggle switches and 13 pin connector requirements), so I can lend some direct credance that:

* I originally rolled my eyes at a $500 installation quote but when I actually sat down and did the math it's really not out of line at all- especially if your installer is a well known and experienced luthier.   My luthier charges a flat rate of $70 an hour so...

Prep work (making sure that he had all required parts, read the schematics, etc.) and check guitar for any preexisting issues- $35

Gut existing electronics and remove exisiting bridge (probably not necessary with a GK installation)- $35

Mask and route guitar body for the new bridge/pickup, micro switches, and new synth volume pot  (lot's of measuring and marking with a little bit of routing...as my installer pointed out, one slip or mistake and it's a $300 new paint job)-$70

Mask and route body for 13 pin jack -$35

Install new bridge/pickup, switches pot, and 13 pin jack (route for additional wiring between new pickup and contol cavity)- $70

Install PC board in cavity (some sort of custom mounting needs to be made for any installation), wire (remember mag pickups need to be wired in as well) and reassemble everything- $70

Restring and set up guitar-$70

Test, tweak, and troubleshoot (see Elantric's common installation issues and remember that any time your luthier spends on the phone with support is billable time to you)-$105

Parts, misc, and taxes- ~$50

I had new pickups installed and the locking nut repositioned on my guitar as well,  so don't forget to figure in time for additional customizations as well.

* The list of common installation issues that Elantric posted is *dead on*.  My installer ran into several of the exact issues listed despite having done multiple installations in the past.  One other "gotcha" to be on the look out for is that very few installers actually seem to have VG-units on hand in their shops,  so they often have no way of testing installations unless you're willing to leave your VG with them (this was where I was really glad I decided to hang onto my old VG-8).