Latency Shootout: GR-55, Fishman TriplePlay, MIDI Guitar 64

Started by tomtheguitarguy, February 26, 2014, 03:39:57 PM

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Brian Bowman

Good review!

In producing the reported measurements, it appears the reviewer played only one note.  It's understood that this not a realistic assessment of an actual playing situation where the impact of latency at the player's ear will vary depending on many factors.  It would be great to see a test that measures the ability of a particular pitch-to-MIDI converter (and practically speaking, the subsequent signal chain) to "keep up" at very fast tempos, (e.g. 1/8 notes at 300BPM or classical tremolo figures).

shawnb

Quote from: BackDAWman on February 26, 2014, 08:15:59 PM
It would be nice to see a comparison of the amount of ghost notes produced in each of the systems.

FYI, I did a test a while back, purely between the FTP & the GR-55, and the FTP absolutely killed the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg70054#msg70054

I had the FTP and a GK3 mounted on the same guitar, with the GK3 mounted closer to the bridge.  I.e., the FTP was handicapped, yet performed much, much better.  The image below is from the two devices for the exact same performance!

Many more doubled-up notes by the '55.  Further, there were many timing errors by the '55, but none by the FTP.  I've been saying this for quite some time - the '55 is inconsistent in its latency on note detection, with a pretty wide variety of latency measurements:   
QuoteMy conclusion is that ... the MIDI note conversion sometimes takes much longer even for the same note.  This variability was frequently 50% (e.g., a 40msec measurement followed by a 60msec measurement, or a 15 msec one followed by a 22 msec one).   This 50% variability existed on all strings for all (EDIT: Roland) devices.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=870.msg45029#msg45029




In fact, this was later used on the FTP site itself:
http://tripletalk.fishman.com/2013/10/fishman-tripleplay-tracking-vs-brand-x/

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Brian Bowman

Roland certainly has the R&D talent and is aware of the technology needed to "catch up".  The Roland response to FTP will certainly be interesting.

Gaustu

Quote from: Spider on March 01, 2014, 12:13:11 PM

I own Yamaha G50 (the same tracking speed as Axon) and sold it because GR55 was slower but produced definitely less glitches. So speed isn't only one factor.



If to be objective, I owned Yamaha G50 and, despite it is dished up as the same algo as in Axon, it worked not like Axon so far. It was really glitchy with no way to fix it.
Parker PDF85 modified: Sustainiac, SD TB-4, Piezo Hexpander 13 pin out.
GR-55 mod with 13 din thru, 6 analog outputs D-Sub => Presonus FS Mobile  8 analog inputs.
NI Reactor matchHEX Guitar Framer Ensemble custom.

Elantric

From Spider's  "Cyfrowogitarowo" High Tech Guitar site in Poland
http://cyfrowogitarowo.pl/archiwa/56

(Google Translation)

Who is the fastest in the city, namely latency MIDI converters
Each user synth guitar has always been plagued with the problem of artificially generated audio delay with respect to the party played on the "normlanej" guitar. In the practical test, we checked the possibilities available in the market polyphonic MIDI converters.

Test Let's start with the facts. Manufacturers of years trying to minimize the delay, but the laws of physics can not yet changed. Latency will always be, unless we look instead of your favorite guitar after another - gitaropodobn? - as Zitar technology and beautiful in sound, but closed on a variety of sounds, guitar synthesizer which was the example. Roland GR-300.

The inventor of the cult of the converter, which was the AXON AX-100, as well as the creator of the Fishman TriplePlay, Andreas Szalay said that these, as well as competing devices already reached their physical limits in speed of operation. This does not mean that the struggle "for speed" is over. There has been, however, it is not about speed, but about the reproducibility of the results - we will return to this subject in one of the following articles

Converters to start

Under the magnifying glass took on the Polish market MIDI Guitar converters whose performance not only allows for the processing of monophonic solo, but also accords, which need to convert polyphonic operation mode Speech of Roland GR-55 (from approx. 2200 z?), Fishman TriplePlay (from c. 1900 z?, in short, FTP) and applications Jam Origin MIDI Guitar (99.95 USD, the test here ).
http://cyfrowogitarowo.pl/archiwa/61

Immediately it should be noted that our results mainly show the relationship between the individual rate than the actual value of the delays of individual devices. This is due to the fact that the signal path is a plurality of introducing latency buffers such as USB and Firewire interfaces, buffers ASIO / CoreAudio etc.

But it is enough to look at the screen shot below to see who is the winner. Can forward the inquisitive and read the details.


GK and FTP

Fishman is the leader in TriplePlay. His strengths include not only the lowest latency, but also the greatest accuracy. Just like three years ago, the appearance of Roland GR-55 introduced a new quality in the world of guitar synthesizers, so now the point of reference is the FTP. It's just that the GR-55 brought a greater tolerance for inaccuracy playing without offering any rate no longer sold Terratec Axon devices and Yamaha G-50. Triple Play, which is a modernized successor of the latter two devices is not only the smallest delay, but also offer excellent precision even when we play more messy than required guitar MIDI converters.

For the curious





Testbed:

In the first test: guitar Schecter Omen 6 installed on the adapter GK-3 (for Roland GR-55) and a wireless MIDI converter TriplePlay. Normal starter Seymour Duncan JB generate a signal for Jam Origin MIDI Guitar applications and gave, which is a point of reference, a dry guitar signal. At the same time were recorded piano sounds generated by Motif Rack XS Synthesizer (USB wireless receiver TriplePlay> in USB Host 5 DIN MIDI> Motif synthesizer), built-in sound PCM Roland GR-55 (which does not use MIDI!) And a MIDI track for MIDI Guitar FTP and Roland GR-55 via a USB interface. The guitar was connected to the CPU Avid Eleven,
http://www.avid.com/US/products/eleven
which was recorded by the Motu Traveler connected via FireWire 400 with 13 MacBook (late 2013). Recording was realized in Studio One Professional.

LEGEND
* Gitara = Schecter Omen Dry Guitar Direct Signal > Avid Eleven plug in>Motu Traveler Audio Interface>  Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* 11R  = Avid Eleven plug in
http://www.avid.com/US/products/eleven

* FTP 5 DIN > Motif = Fishman TriplePlay Guitar to MIDI System >USB Host to MIDI adapter > Yamaha Motif Synth  > Motu Traveler Audio Interface>  Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* FTP MIDI USB  > Motif = Fishman TriplePlay Guitar to MIDI System triggering a synth in Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* GR-55 PCM = Roland GR-55 Guitar to internal PCM Synth  > Motu Traveler Audio Interface>  Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* GR-55 COSM = Roland GR-55 COSM Modeling Guitar > Motu Traveler Audio Interface>  Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* MIDI Guitar = Jam Origin MIDI Guitar - real time software Guitar to MIDI converter triggering a synth in Studio One Professional DAW on MacBook (late 2013)

* E6 = Low E on Guitar (82.41 hz)

* E1 = High E on Guitar (329.63 hz)

DELAY IN RELATION TO THE GUITAR SIGNAL  (ms)


DELAY IN RELATION TO MEASURED FISHMAN TRIPLEPLAY LATENCY (ms)




In the second test was separately carried out the measurements for the GR-55 and FTP. MIDI tracks were recorded directly from the individual interfaces connected via USB, and audio sounds were recorded by the Motu (guitar, modeled by GR-55, Motif, PCM sounds with the GR-55). The reference point for the record was clean guitar signal being recorded in the same way. In the case of MIDI tracks were measured with respect to the delay in the leader, Fishman TriplePlay.



DELAY IN RELATION TO THE GUITAR SIGNAL  (ms)


DELAY IN RELATION TO MEASURED FISHMAN TRIPLEPLAY LATENCY (ms)



Results

Delay in TriplePlay, as Axon devices ranges from 6 to 14 milliseconds. You have to remember that this is the latency from striking the string to send the MIDI signal. There is no mention of the software latency, audio interface, etc. This can be seen by looking at the graphs. They show that the difference between the record and the guitar signal converters is greater, and in extreme cases can reach almost 50 ms. While in the case of Roland actually playing fast parts on the bass strings, you can feel that it is a bit too synthesizer guitar in the case Tripleplay latency is virtually no noticeable. In addition, the resignation of the parallel batch guitar or synth sounds appropriate selection can additionally help in minimizing the delay more or less they will have any MIDI converter.

The biggest delay is Jam Origin MIDI Guitar (test here ).
http://cyfrowogitarowo.pl/archiwa/61
But I think in the professional use interfere with its other shortcomings more than the delay. Of course, it is great, but the creation and exploration, especially when we play the synthetic sound is not a disqualifying factor. Same with all the described systems reach for MIDI Guitar, because there is nothing CONNECTIONS banalniejszego than a normal guitar cable to the computer.

Spider

If I will have some time I will make new test using GP-10 and FTP on Godin xtSA.

Macciza

I am wondering if that was the only pickup configuration tested?
Was the reverse placement ie GK closest to bridge also tested?
'70s Strat, Brian Moore iM, VG-8, VG-99, FC-300, VL-70m, StringPort, SoftStep, Sentient6, iMac QC i7 27".

shawnb

I did similar tests a while back, with similar results.   The FTP was handicapped in mine - further away from the bridge.   What I also have found is that if you do many measurements, the latency for the GR-55 varies a lot - sometimes a few ms better, sometimes a few ms worse.   

More here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10700.msg77812#msg77812
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

I use in one test GK on start near to the bridge too. So... it isn't a something that has influence on results. Like Shawn wrote: GR-55 is more unpredictable and we (our ears) notice that. And this is more important then slightly better or worse tracking speed. Andras Shalay, as I remember, wrote about this too. It was a lot before FTP was on the market .

shawnb


I love my GR-55, BTW...  If I need to grab ONE THING, it will be my '55.   MIDI tracking is good, the COSM is very good, & there are enough FX & processing options to let me build most voices I wanna play.   

With the FTP, you really do need to build a rig around it, which can be a pain in the a$$.   I think I'm on my 3rd iteration (and still not 100% happy).   

I view these stats as simple facts that backup what I feel when I play the device.   The Roland gear requires you to change your playing style, maintain cables, mind your picks, experiment with setups, etc.   The FTP MIDI tracking just works, and works measurably better.   But once you have an FTP, how do you incorporate it in your rig?

Each piece of gear pisses me off in its own unique way...   ::)
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

Shawn keep it simple as possible:Blofeled + FTP + USB Host and MIDI floor board if you need sustain pedal, PC switching or more. If you need more orchestral sound take some regular synth and use multichannel patches for less problems.

But yes GR-55 is all in one box and this is it its strong point.

shawnb

Quote from:  Spider on February 16, 2015, 01:47:45 PMShawn keep it simple as possible:Blofeled + FTP + USB Host and MIDI floor board if you need sustain pedal, PC switching or more. If you need more orchestral sound take some regular synth and use multichannel patches for less problems.

At this point, the problems I have with my FTP rig have nothing to do with the technology/setup.  I'm VERY happy on that side.   

I figured I'd go all-in in terms of running processing on a computer, to reduce the size & complexity of my rig.  My current rig runs on a small ultrabook laptop.  I run Sampletank 3 for synth & Amplitube 3 for guitar.  I use my FTP, of course, for MIDI.  I use Usine Hollyhock as my VST host (which is way too fun...).  Since I wanted 2 expression pedals, I use my FC-300 as foot controller.  I drive a pair of ELX112Ps. 

My challenges are in two areas...
  -  Although I like Amplitube, because it 'feels' & responds & sounds like an amp, it is missing some of my favorite voices.  No real 'synth' options, no GR300 etc.  I miss that dimension. 
  - This might be controversial, but I think a lot of the GR-55's presets are extremely well thought out.  All the little modulations over time, the little details like 'breathiness', that were put into some of those those voices, such as sax & piano, are excellent.  But those are the voices the '55 has the greatest issues with - 'mousie death squeals' on the sax & doubled notes on the piano.  I have the tools to reproduce them in Sampletank 3/Hollyhock but it is very time consuming.   

So, and I hate to say this out loud, building my alternate rig made me appreciate the Roland gear much better.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Spider

Shawn,
Last few days I install VSTi on cheap 8" Windows 8.1 tablet. It has only 5 GB space but.... i still have this space plus a lot of instruments. So yes... this is nice way.

And understand your "missing's". for that reason I put FTP on Godin xtSA and use it parallel with GP-10.

BTW: instead of Ampiltube which was great for me for a lot period of time (better then GuitarRig, Pod Farm) try excellent S-Gear (I love it feelings) or / and BIAS Desktop.

shawnb

Yes, the gp-10 is very tempting.  Resistance is futile.....
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric


Boss GP-10 v's Fishman Tripleplay Midi tracking quick comparison
Quick compare of soft synth midi triggering - not too scientific but you get the idea

vablows

Searched and searched, correct me if I am wrong, but there is no way to change FTP presets (string splits) via MIDI foot controller while using with an external hardware synth and no computer?

I just want to have my Motif Rack ES, set up each preset with what I need and have the corresponding FTP preset with it all changed at once with a SofStep 2.

I just can't seem to find if this is possible or not.




shawnb

Quote from: vablows on April 23, 2015, 02:53:32 PM
Searched and searched, correct me if I am wrong, but there is no way to change FTP presets (string splits) via MIDI foot controller while using with an external hardware synth and no computer?

I just want to have my Motif Rack ES, set up each preset with what I need and have the corresponding FTP preset with it all changed at once with a SofStep 2.

I just can't seem to find if this is possible or not.

No way I can think of...   The FTP wants you to configure various "hardware synth" patches for different configs, including splits, and load those to the controller.  The problem is I haven't yet found a way to get the FTP to respond to program changes. 

You can do it the other way around, by having the FTP d-pad choose your patches & transmit program changes.     
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

vablows

admsustaniac, I read those, just wanted to confirm it, but thank you!

Shawnb, thanks for all of your hard work and sharing!

Elantric


Yann Seven