VG-99 - Playing LIVE with VG-99: small vs large (with soundman) gigs

Started by Davor, February 14, 2008, 10:15:26 AM

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Davor

I find it VERY DIFFICULT to use my VG-99 live in any small to intermediate gig WITHOUT a regular SOUNMAN ... The EQ variations and the acoustic room subtleties and the schlepping of an extra full PA are just too much for me and my band. So, I use my tube amps and analog top pedals and just few GR-33 gimmmick-sounds in most of my small club gigs.

On any LARGE gigs like venues with a pro soundman and with a proper PA, I can imagine that VG-99 can be easily used and the only question is whether you use an in-ear monitoring or the classical on-stage monitor or even a hybrid solution (with a stage tube amp). Still versatile patches have to be programmed !

I would like you people to tell us here all the tricks and EXPERIENCES with various live gigs, and VG EQing and programming optimal patches and how do you alter the EQ and volume and wah in REAL TIME on stage during the real gig ...

Thanks, Davor

s0c9

I'm curious too - one of the things I'm trying to learn before I make the jump and buy it  ;D

It sounds like you are being hit by the infamous FM ["Fletcher Munson"] problem. Google it for details, but it essentially states that we hear different frequencies at different volumes, and adjust accordingly. Thus, a patch that sounds great in your bedroom can SUCK at stage and gig volumes !! 

I currently send my signal from my guitar amp [line6 Flex3] direct to the PA via XLR outputs. Channel EQ on mixer is flat. I set up my patches by running the XLR outs into my home mixer and tweak to taste using good headphones. I do this 'cus the amp modeling [AIR] and mic placement features on the amp do NOT translate to the speakers in the amp. That way, I know that what the audience hears is how I've built the patch, not what I hear on stage [albeit somewhat close].  We do not use our amps as back-line, but for monitoring only as they are pointed back across the stage, and bass, acoustic, keys and guitars are DI'd.

I'm not sure why EQ variations are an issue - unless you are running sound from the stage and use your amps as backline [UGGHH!!] - and that never works, and is an entirely separate post.  :)

jon_bondy

I just got my VG-99/FC-300 (thanks for the group buy deal, Steve!) and am [happily] overwhelmed.  I'd read the manual, but it still is a stunningly complex device.

I play by myself, at home, and then once every 5 years or so play out one night at a college reunion dance.  Needless to say, the issues you raise about translating headphone sounds to a stage interest me, because I will only get one shot.

I'm not sure what you were suggesting.  You set the patches up until you like them at home, and then play them through the PA?  I wasn't clear on the phrase "the amp modeling and mic placement features on the  [real? virtual?] amp do not translate to the speakers in the amp [real? virtual]".  Perhaps you can explain.

Thanks!

:)

Jon

s0c9

Quote from: jon_bondy on February 14, 2008, 02:04:22 PM
I'm not sure what you were suggesting.  You set the patches up until you like them at home, and then play them through the PA?  I wasn't clear on the phrase "the amp modeling and mic placement features on the  [real? virtual?] amp do not translate to the speakers in the amp [real? virtual]".  Perhaps you can explain.

Jon,
I was talking about the limitations on my Line6 Flextone III amp... not the VG-99.

It's amp models, mic placement and certain other features are sent to the XLR outs, but not to the main speakers [its a 2x12] combo.
So if I select an "Off Axis MD421" mic and a 4x12 cab for the patch, I get the 4x12 cab and amp modeling going to the speakers, but not the MD421 mic modeling. That only goes to the XLR outs via the amps A.I.R "technology"... LOL    I got used to the differences now.

So.. mic modeling goes to the virtual amp, but not the real amp...

Regardless, the principle of setting up your patches by using headphones to ensure that you KNOW what is going to the PA has worked fro me for about 3 yrs now.  That way, if room acoustics or other variants make the stage sound strange, I can relax 'cus FOH is getting the real sound. Beyond that, it's the soundguy's job to place it in the mix, etc.  That's what HE gets paid for !!  ::)

Playing "out".. gigging .... is as much about practice as skill. It's like being on TV. If you're only on once every 5 yrs.... [skill aside] you won't be as good [relaxed, comfortable, aware, etc.] as you would be if you had been on TV 5 times last year, or 5 times last month.
Playing gigs well takes practice.. and I haven't yet met a band that wasn't different at a gig than at practice -- unless they'd been playing for 20 yrs. There's adrenalin, crowd response, how tight you are together.. that all impacts stage presence and performance.

bubblebeat

I had my first gig last night with the VG-99 and I thought I'd share my experience.
I've used it directly plugged into the PA and I had loads of compliments about my sound. The D-beam/pitch is a killer live effect especially as I'm playing on a LP  ;)
I had one dedicated foldback to hear myself and I found the sound coming out of it to be a little harsh sometimes. I've created my patches on a Yamaha HS50M at a fairly high level and I did not notice that using them. Anyway, the sound guy told me I should use EQ to make my sound 'warmer' in a live situation.
Have you got any suggestions in term of EQ adjustments to achieve that result?

Cheers!

BTW, I'll be hopefully using IEM newt gig (next week) as I'm waiting to receive my UM2 moulds. I have a 'Rane MM 42 processor' so I'll be able to take care of the monitoring myself, I can't wait!  :)

fxbuff

Hey, would you please post your experience switching over to the UM2s when you're set up?
Thanks!

s0c9

Quote from: fxbuff on February 16, 2008, 07:03:23 AM
Hey, would you please post your experience switching over to the UM2s when you're set up?
Thanks!

DITTO !!
I've got custom-molded UM-1's... they're neat, but I do not use them live.. See the "New Strategies" sticky at top for details..

I'm really interested in hearing how you integrate the IEM's into your system.. It's turning out to be a REALLY expensive exercise for us to do it right - splitter snake, on-stage mixer, multiple out to headphone amps, wired or wireless phones [PSM's] vs. Hearback [or Aviom] Systems approach.  Either way  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
NOTE: We have not gone down this path yet.

-Steve

s0c9

Quote from: bubblebeat on February 15, 2008, 06:43:37 PM
I had one dedicated foldback to hear myself and I found the sound coming out of it to be a little harsh sometimes. I've created my patches on a Yamaha HS50M at a fairly high level and I did not notice that using them. Anyway, the sound guy told me I should use EQ to make my sound 'warmer' in a live situation.
Have you got any suggestions in term of EQ adjustments to achieve that result?

Without knowing how your PA is setup or what it consists of......
Do you know if your dedicated monitor mix has a 31-band EQ on it ???

Most good PA systems [mine included  :) ] have 31-band EQ's on ALL monitor feeds, in addition to FOH.
This allows the soundguy to 'ring out' the monitors prior to the gig and 'tweak' the stage sound during it - to prevent feedback at higher stage volumes.  And... monitor feeds [when run from FOH] should be off the AUX sends, and usually PRE-FADER/PRE-EQ, so output levels to the monitors are constant, and not impacted by the soundguy boosting the lead guitar solo. Being PRE-EQ means that the only EQ on the monitor mix comes from that 31-band EQ in the effects rack.

K.. so if you do have EQ on your mix, there's a pretty good chance that the mix is EQ'd for vocals and not instruments. It's likely that some of the mids/high are notched out, and this could make it sound harsh.  If it was harsh in FOH, then the soundguy needs to compensate on the channel EQ.

-Steve

bubblebeat

Hi,

Our band is constituted of 2 MC, 1 guy playing synths and tweaking knobs and myself at the guitar. If you want to check it out, visit http://myspace.com/thevangarde

Live synths and backing tracks (done on a laptop running Ableton Live) are plugged into a MOTU sound card.

The MOTU's main outs are sent to the PA, the backing tracks are sent to my Rane processor using another 2 MOTU's outputs via Ableton Live (cue out).

The VG-99 sub outs are sent to the PA and the main outs to the Rane. The Rane allows me to mix the four ins to my taste, I do not need another mixer. In that setup I do not monitor the MC/synths but it does not bother me. As long as I have the backing tracks, I know what's going on  ;)

The UM2 are connected to the Rane using the headphone outs, I'm not using wireless. I've attached a GK3 cable with an headphone extension together so it's a little bit less messy.

I need to find a good solution to secure that cable on the guitar's side. I was thinking of fixing it to my guitar strap, has anyone found a good solution?

Regarding my questions about EQ, I've reduced the gain at 2.5 KHz by 2dB and that really helped. I really appreciate the fact of having different EQ on the main qnd sub outputs, that's great.

Cheers,

lo.

Davor



More on the live EQ  options :

I have also tested the $185 Electro-Harmonix Tube EQ pedal
that enables one to use even extra expression pedals and
definitely adds 2 real hot valves EQ and gain (wah) ...

Recommended in general for all demanding 'tube maniacs' like myself :-)

http://www.ehx.com/ehx2/Default.asp?q=f&f=%2FCatalog%2F02_Home_Studio_Performance_Products%2F06_Tube_EQ



Rax

Hi.  I will be buying the VG 99 very soon and have been doing some research.  I'm new on this site and just stumbled on to this topic.  I've been using VG-8's on acoustic guitar for years... and at times I use some pretty high gain sounds, at least for a finger-style guitarist.  I've been very fortunate to have had very few problems with my sound playing small to huge venues.  (I play in a progressive acoustic group that should compound any sound issues.)

One thing I found early on, always program settings/effects and eq's through your live set up through a good PA from the start.  If you don't, then you won't have any control of your sound out front when there is a problem.

I don't know if this will help, but you may want to try what I've been doing and will do with the VG 99.   

I run my VG-8's and gtr synth into a Mackie board.  Any other effects I add are in the Mackie Aux's and are ran back into channels.  I send my stereo outs to another board that does a stage mix.  There we control an in ear monitor mix (which is the full mix) via a stereo sub out to the head phone transmitter.  We also run a pair of EAW ep-2's for monitoring the full mix.   (Good if we choose not to go in ear.  Never happens though.)  The EAW's fire off stage for anyone close to us to hear a pristine powerful stereo mix.  (The EAW's are amazing.  If I was playing in a rock band... these would be my gtr cabinets.  They are high end self powered full range cabinets and can get LOUD.)     

The house is sent a full stereo mix in which our sound-man can eq.  We also send him individual instruments and backing tracks off our show-controller.  If he runs into a problem, he has everything he needs to fix it.  If it is run and gun...  he can just eq our full mix from stage and bring up anything lacking. Like if the guitar is tearing off the people's head because the house PA is really brittle or high endie... sometimes things are a mess out front.  So he can at least eq our channels.  The Vg 8 has been wonderful for what I'm doing.  I'm blown away by what I'm hearing about the VG 99.

I've jammed with other groups just using my rack/board and the EAW's (sometimes just a pair of Bose 802's).  EQ is never a problem.  If the house PA is a mess... then the sound man does have to eq a little more drastically.  One thing I found that has been a problem (especially with acoustic gtr), is the bass that gets trapped on stage at bigger venues or outside concerts where the subs are causing the low end to fold back onto the stage.  We corrected that with the in ear monitors.  (Ours are Procession Lab Dual Drivers.)  They sound amazing and you can mix easily with them in.  They cut about 29 to 31 DB of the outside noise out.  So bass folding back onto the stage is no longer an issue.  The people out front don't hear what we're hearing on stage,  so if you start to eq around noise that isn't an issue out front, you just are creating more issues for the sound-man.

Hope this helps.
Rax       
http://www.acousticon.net/

Elantric


>We corrected that with the in ear monitors.  (Ours are Procession Lab Dual Drivers.)


Can you supply a URL link or more specific details on your  ear monitors?

Rax

Sorry about the spelling.  Here's a link to a site that sells them.  We were fitted for them at "Full Sail" in Orlando.  They give musicians in the area good deals.

Links for some information on them.
http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/precisionlabs.html
http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/chpro65.html 

We use the dual drivers.  I know people who love the single drivers.  But for the type of music that we play, and the way we run our show, the dual drivers seemed appropriate.
I had never used in ear monitors before these, but they do sound better then any ear phones I've ever used and they kill outside sound.  We have to set up two mic's to here the audience.  I take out one side between songs or just dislodge it slightly to hear the world.  It took a little getting use to.
Hope this helps.
Rax
http://www.acousticon.net/

facingwest

Hi all.  I am new to the forum and this is my first post.  Has anyone ever tried running your VG-99 through a Bose L1 tower?  If you haven't had the pleasure, try it.  You won't be dissapointed.  Because of the way it disperses sound and doesn't have any horn drivers, the guitar sounds aren't too harsh.  What's great about the Bose is the fact that the audience is hearing the same mix as you.

I have a long road ahead of me before putting the VG-99 into play and will have quite a few questions.  All the sounds will be based around the normal volume that I play through in the tower.  Something I haven't seen too much of yet is the guitar to MIDI converters.  Everything I've looked at on YouTube was very vague.  In the end, it will be two guys (GK loaded acoustic/electric and Zendrum) trying to play as much of a song without having to prerecord anything.  Loop stations are truely a musician's friend. ;)

BTW, I really dig what Acousticon is doing Rax.  I was really impressed with both you and Dave's playing.


Brent Flash

Quote from: facingwest on August 26, 2008, 05:27:33 AM
Hi all.  I am new to the forum and this is my first post.  Has anyone ever tried running your VG-99 through a Bose L1 tower?
Hi facingwest! Welcome to the group!

Yes, there are a few members that use the Bose system and love it. You will find some of the posts by searching the key work Bose. The only complaint I have heard so far is the price of the system. Not a surprise. I have used Bose 802s since 1980 and know that anything with the Bose name comes with added $$$$.

Again welcome to the group!

elchampion

I played my first show last night with the VG-99 going thru Roland KC-300. For the most part it worked out well. I settled on one patch that sounded the best in the room. I still need to tweak some more usable patches and organize them better, but I see myself actually using it live and leaving the pedals at home. The only thing that freaks me out is taking it out in public and hoping no one spills their drink on my FC-300. :o

fokof

My experience with gigs/big gigs so far , note that I'm a bass player , I'M talking about my use of a VB99.

-On bigger gigs , My VB99 is used to emulate different bass sounds and synth sounds , so there is a very big danger of EQing going all over the place. The bass synth sounds having a lot more "data" on the lower register than normal bass sounds.
I don't want to create a heart attack to the FOH guy each time I change a patch !
Anyways , I always listen to my VB99 through full range monitoring , not normal instrument amps.
At home I use JBL LSR full kit and live I use RCF ART series active monitors or IEM.
I also pass every patch I create through "Spectra FooX" ( a SMAART for Mac) to check for dynamics and to clean up frequencies I could have missed only by ears. It's practical to "see" the waveforms sometimes......
I try do do a "mastering" job before using them Live , if I can say so.....

-On smaller gigs , I use the VB99 mainly as an FX , it's my bass pickup through the VB99. So a lot less problematic.



We are setting up for IEM these days and I found a way to make it work for cheap;
Mainly a quintet drum/bass/gtr/kbd/voxes
A MOTU 828MKIII (750$) is my digital board with an extra 8 preamp (focusrite octopre LE ) (600$)
With these I have 10 preamps , 8 line ins , 18 physical outputs and an extra ADAT I/O if I need some more I/O.
I bought a Rolls RDB109 (modified) to act as an isolated 10 line split box. (150)

So in the split box/preamps goes= kick, snare , two overheads (we don't need the other drum mike in IEM) the 3 vocals , the guitar mic.
I go direct with the SPDIF out of my VB99 ( IMPORTANT in that case = 828 slaved to the VB99!!!! )
The keyboard player has a small board , he sends a mix in two line in.
I use one of the two headphone mix of the 828 and I bought a Carvin headphone amp (150$)

For 1300 , I have a complete mixer/isolated split/ headphone amp. Works very well.

I bring my laptop but I was thinking of getting a Mac Mini with one of these small USB touchscreen;
http://www.lcdtft.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=090.018_LCDP8WVGATS





A2theT

fokof, I use an HP tablet PC with touch screen and it works great.  I was running MAC OSX10 in vmware but eventuallt abandoned it.
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars