From Mint to Trashed... When Does Damage Make a Guitar MORE Valuable?

Started by Rhcole, June 11, 2017, 11:13:52 AM

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Rhcole

This is a general guitar topic, but I thought I would compare what our technically-astute members who enjoy advanced guitar technologies think compared to guitar players from the Telecaster site.

I posted recently about wanting to preserve the finish on nickel pickups and even Bigsbys. I'm going to experiment with coating them to prevent damage and oxidation.

It occurred to me that there is a big gap between a "used" guitar and a guitar that is so beat-up it is now MORE beautiful. Thus, relicing where you pay experts to beat your guitars up for you. My guitars never arrive there because I handle them really carefully, so any damage to them sticks out as being "wrong".

In other words, EVERYBODY AGREES that if you have a beautiful brand-new Tele and you chip the headstock or ding the body, you swear and the guitar just dropped in value. It is now a "used" guitar. Nobody will pay you as much for the guitar, even if you list it as "Expertly Dinged by Our Skilled Craftsmen".

So, I wonder, what bridges the gap? When does a used beat-up guitar become something new again and thus more valuable?

Your thoughts/Pics?

chrish

I would suspect that it depends on who owned the  guitar.



I imagine Willie Nelson's acoustic guitar would fetch top dollar as a collector's item, and we all know what that looks like.


HecticArt

I've never been a fan of relicing. It seems very insincere to me. If the wear is from years of being played like Willie's, that's one thing, but to pretend it's gotten in that state because you've put that many hours in on it doesn't seem right.

I used to build furniture, so I got in the habit of putting lots of time into making finishes as flawless as possible. I appreciate the work that goes into making a guitar, and I try to keep mine looking as new as I can. I'm sure I probably baby them much more than is really necessary, but when I bought my first couple, I literally had to save my pennies to buy them. I guess the habit stuck.

Nicks and scuffs happen - it can't be avoided. The first one sucks like getting the first nick in a new car, but you don't trade it in for a new car, you keep on driving.

My sweat is hard on metal finishes, so I'm curious about what you find works to protect them.

As far as value of damaged guitars, Willie's worn acoustic, Jimi's torched Strat, Townshend's first smash, and a handful of others, I see adding value for the historic significance. Like cherish said, it's about whose it was.

chrish

The folks at Ibanez must have read your thread. I don't think it's a great marketing strategy however.

http://www.ibanez.com/products/u_hb_detail17.php?year=2017&cat_id=7&series_id=119&data_id=44&color=CL01

"ARTSTAR Vintage
There's something irresistible about a vintage guitar - well worn with battle scars, earned throughout years of hard use. Like a favorite old leather jacket, it immediately feels familiar. Now, Ibanez proudly offers Artstar Vintage - the alternative to pricey vintage instruments. The Artstar Vintage "aging" process applies to hardware and other appointments, as well as the body, giving each guitar a convincingly real, worn appearance."

Elantric

I Played these "new" Ibanez guitars at 2017 Winter NAMM

surprisingly nice guitars IMHO
QuoteI posted recently about wanting to preserve the finish on nickel pickups and even Bigsbys. I'm going to experiment with coating them to prevent damage and oxidation.

It occurred to me that there is a big gap between a "used" guitar and a guitar that is so beat-up it is now MORE beautiful. Thus, relicing where you pay experts to beat your guitars up for you. My guitars never arrive there because I handle them really carefully, so any damage to them sticks out as being "wrong".

In other words, EVERYBODY AGREES that if you have a beautiful brand-new Tele and you chip the headstock or ding the body, you swear and the guitar just dropped in value. It is now a "used" guitar. Nobody will pay you as much for the guitar, even if you list it as "Expertly Dinged by Our Skilled Craftsmen".


I still have my 2005 Gretsch 6120 lacquer Brian Setzer, but I played several gigs in harsh environments, and the nickel plated hardware has developed significant aging.

i was ready to take the guitar apart and clean  / buff/ polish the nickel hardware (Blitz polish)- but when I show the guitar in its current aged condition to other guitarists, they tell me DO NOT CHANGE A THING!

The aging adds Mojo and raises the $$$ value   

Rhcole

Elantric,

The aging may add mojo but I wonder if it adds to the value. I followed a thread on the tele site and most people downgraded the resale value of a  worn guitar with only a few exceptions. The already reliced instruments from Fender etc. likely hold their value even if they are beat up more, but for your average Ibanez, wear just drops the sale price.


Shingles

I actually disagree with the OP.
I don't find reliced guitars beautiful. I can appreciate real vintage instruments that carry their battle scars with pride, but not if its fake.
I like to buy guitars in pristine condition and if they get dinged or scratched or dulled in my use, then that, to me, makes them more 'mine' and I don't mind it showing.

Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

CodeSmart

When (if ever) you buy a new car, would you want it "pre-smashed"?
When you buy a new (if ever) house would you want it "pre-mouldered"?
When you buy a new drilling tool, do you want it "pre-burnt"
When you buy a new chair for your veranda, do you want it "pre-fat ass destroyed"?
When you buy a new book, do you want pages to be pre-bent with pre-underlining sentences in yellow?
When you buy a new barbecue grill, do you want it"pre-rusty"?
When you buy new strings do you want them "pre-fatted" and "pre-untunable"
When you buy new picks do you want them "pre-unsharped"
When you buy a new WC.... etc...you get the picture, with stains, smell and everything...

Short answer "Never"
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!


reingarnichts

It really never adds value.
But:
I like my instruments worn in, like a good pair of shoes. I don't want to worry about damaging the finish. I'm always kind of relieved when the first marks on a new instrument begin to show.

DreamTheory

My theory: nobody wants a car that is 12  years old, but at a certain point jalopies becomes a classic.

Because I got my guitar relatively cheap, I have no anxiety about dings. I drilled holes to add toggles for series/single/parallel. No worries, drill away.

GK wire caused minor abrasion to the finish, so I reversed the direction and installed it the other way so my hand does not rub it against the fiish.

Ibanez comes out with eye popping finishes every year.  Nothing wrong with eye candy. I got a used base model and put in Gison pickups.

electric: Epiphone Dot semihollow body, acoustic: mahogany jumbo, recording: Cubase Artist 11 or Tascam DP008

Tony Raven

IMO? Relicing is nonsense, another path to pry cash from the sweaty mitts of suckers. ;D

Okay, a disclaimer. Years back, I bought an AXL Badwater Stratoclone. Pretty good for a cheap guitar -- fret ends stuck out a little, the vibrato arm is dangerously weak -- so I bought a couple more in different finishes, figuring they'd at least be groovy wall-art. Here's someone else's --

(Not obvious in photo: all the hardware has been given a patina, & the knobs are even irregularly grungy. :))

However, what I paid for each is likely less than what a "pro relic" job would cost.

Last year, I was shopping Reverb.com for a decent MIM Strat. I couldn't help but notice that the great majority were in ridiculously good condition, as though they'd been parked soon after purchase. As a result of this glut, the prices were clearly depressed from Blue Book values; in most cases, they'd been up for months AND had a "Make Offer" flag. Almost all bragged of 100% original hardware; some didn't even show swirlies.

Thing is, I wanted a Strat TO PLAY. An axe that's hung on a wall or sat in a corner for years (the selection dated back to 1997) might never have been set up or adjusted, could even have significant neck twist/warp, corroded electricals, etc. But a guitar that looks literally well-played, maybe has some sensible mods, might be needing a refret but is (IME, at least) probably ready to gig right from the box.

Modern finishes, especially on large-run guitars, will NEVER wear the same as they used to, even today's so-called "nitro." Damaging a 2017 guitar to mimic a 1957 guitar is fraudulent, seeming to suggest that the buyers are more interested in having a mantelpiece gewgaw than an instrument.

When the mass-produced "relic" guitars start piling up online, with all the markings comparable side-by-side -- of course, spotlessly preserved in order to "maintain value" ::) -- bidding the price down shouldn't be too difficult.

Blue Book has for years held the position that a "custom shop" version of a guitar is generally worth less than the standard production model (unless proof can be found that it was owned by someone famous or otherwise significant). I figure that intentionally damaged guitars will soon enough wind up in much the same position.

Rhcole

The custom shop reliced guitars have always seemed like a scam to me. A great Fender worth $2k suddenly goes for twice that because somebody wiped acids on the metal and sanded the body.

But somebody MUST be buying them. And I will grant, if you bang up a reliced guitar, will anybody notice? Would you list it for sale as "mint plus" because it's beat up more than the beating you paid for it to receive?

On the Tele site a guy said he bought reliced guitars so he wouldn't worry about damaging them. But then why buy a relic? Why not buy a beat up used guitar for a fraction of the price?

I feel like the robot in the old Star Trek episode that blew itself up because what it was trying to figure out was an irrational loop that was unsolvable...

admin

Quote from: Rhcole on December 15, 2017, 12:54:39 AM
The custom shop reliced guitars have always seemed like a scam to me. A great Fender worth $2k suddenly goes for twice that because somebody wiped acids on the metal and sanded the body.

But somebody MUST be buying them. And I will grant, if you bang up a reliced guitar, will anybody notice? Would you list it for sale as "mint plus" because it's beat up more than the beating you paid for it to receive?

On the Tele site a guy said he bought reliced guitars so he wouldn't worry about damaging them. But then why buy a relic? Why not buy a beat up used guitar for a fraction of the price?

I feel like the robot in the old Star Trek episode that blew itself up because what it was trying to figure out was an irrational loop that was unsolvable...


For some, playing guitar is a profession, for others its a method to unwind from the stress of the day gig,





https://reverb.com/item/6477747-fender-custom-shop-stevie-ray-vaughan-srv-number-one-tribute-stratocaster-2003-sunburst-relic



Typically I see relic guitars attractive to those who I call "posers". its "instant mojo" to play an axe with battle scars that matches your favorite icon's guitar, or ( which Ive encountered)  some invent their own history of a past life on the road in a blues band and that activity created all the battle scars on their recently purchased custom shop relic guitar.

https://reverb.com/item/3463428-fender-62-stratocaster-reissue-srv-1-relic?gclid=Cj0KCQiAgs7RBRDoARIsANOo-HjlPfHm4EY0REeLa9eGDOTVY9SsSjGyo1nSrRcpaWv8Ksss_YKodHIaApXvEALw_wcB&pla=1

many react to the "image" of the guitar they are playing, and the road warn relic guitar supplies additional stimulus to mentally unwind.


https://twitter.com/kcobaindaily/status/598586483642077184
and for others they simply are a collector and consider these "relic" guitars as works of art.


some DIY

 

Rhcole

I'm great with something like a Trussart Steelcaster- those ARE works of art to me. Grungy engraved misfits from lost Toyland guitars are all A-OK, in fact maybe someday I'll buy one.
But, the dude who has a factory beat-up tele at a blues gig to give himself more street cred...

It's like a guy wearing a badly fitted toupee at a singles event- be YOURSELF, for cryin' out loud.
All I'm saying...


admin

Quote from: Rhcole on December 15, 2017, 03:42:34 PM
be YOURSELF, for cryin' out loud.
All I'm saying...

some folks cant grasp the concept.

Ive known a few guitarists who spent all their time ( several years)  learning to play a guitar icon's solos note for note, yet they never had developed the ability to play guitar using their own composition ideas, and never developed their own voice. They could fool a few folks for a while, but eventually their lack of  fret board knowledge becomes apparent when they venture into unknown territory of an extended jam with others.       

Byron Fry talks about the importance of "being  yourself" here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17157.msg161694#msg161694

pasha811

Frankly I do not fall in love with relics. Myself passionate about guitars, especially Fender Stratocasters and lately Telecasters, I have been in a fair about vintage, used, hand made guitars. I had a friend with me that is a Gibson collector fanatic, shelling out a lot of money for a 1998 Les Paul Standard, well kept and close to mint. It sounded like crazy but with all that money I can buy two. So I am personally not a fan of vintage old or relic guitars. However some models I have missed in the past which I might like still obtain my 100% attention and love. They are 2013/2014/2015 Models I have missed, I like the limited editions. I think it's a matter of one's taste and inclination. I saw a 1966 Stratocaster Guitar but the luthier told me that it was 4000 Euros in the state it was as to avoid destroy its value better do not make any changes, use original (old) parts to fix PU and electronics and so the 'bone' nut was the one it came with the guitar.. So from a collector perspective ok but what about really playing it? Well that's my humble sensation... I play a 1986 guitar... but hey.. that's mine since then..
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

alexmcginness

This is a relic'd Les Paul custom. Its a perfect re creation of an original 1974 custom. Of course it took 44 years of work to get it reliced, nights in smokey bars, slipping off the strap 3 days after it was bought in June of 74 and hitting a concrete basement floor and shaking the finish off of the back of the neck etc. But if you compare it to a real 74...you cant tell them apart! ;-)

VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

admin

Relicing links

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/vinegar-for-relicing-hardware.106991/

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?149346-Ageing-gold-hardware

from r/Luthier


PSA: Pickling vinegar for aging nickle parts.INFO (self.Luthier)

submitted 2 years ago by sambookaKit Builder/Hobbyist

Got a new set of Gotoh vintage style locking tuners in nickle. Replacing the tuners on my 50s RW strat so I didnt want them shiny. Here is what I did (and should have done). This is a pretty common thing but some people recommend Muriatic acid. Some use the etchant for circuit boards. I dont like having that stuff around since it just chews up space in my workshop for nothing and is a PITA to dispose of. Someone had said they had tried Vinegar with great (albeit slower) results. If you google it ...

GOOGLE:age+nickel+vinegar+guitar=88000 hits
GOOGLE:age+nickel+muriatic+guitar=9500000 hits

So I tried it.. very happy with the result and it was something I had in my cupboard anyway.

1)put on rubber gloves. I dont care about protecting my hands and am not dealing with anything nasty but you dont want your finger oils on the parts lest they get etched in there.

2)Some people recommend scotchbrite pads.. I used 0000 steel wool on the buttons and backs. They say it helps speed up the aging. I didnt ab it and I didnt take a chance

3)Threw the tuners in a bucket of bolts and shaked it up for a good 5 minutes. The idea is to ding them up a little. I didnt find this made a lot of difference but it was recommended and kinda makes sense.

4)I used lighter fluid directly on the buttons (a drop) to clean and degrease the button. I also wiped down the backs and sides of the tuners with a little naptha. You want to clean it and get any packing grease or grease from the insides of the tuner off. Do NOT soak the tuner in naptha.. you dont want to remove the grease inside.. just clean the outside. Any places with grease left over will not etch and the results will look weird. NOTE: I did NOT do this and there are a few places on the tuners that did not etch evenly. No worries.. it gets sorted out.

5) I have a large tupperware container. Put the tuners in the container along with a small bowl of vinegar. You dont put the vinegar on the metal. Close the tupperware and let it sit for 30 minutes. If you want to have fun leave one of the tuners out to compare. After 30 minutes open it up and prepare to be amazed!! But you arent done yet. After 30 minutes I would say the tuners were 80% aged but I could see where I hadnt cleaned the grease well enough. Clean them and put them back in. How long? I left them for an hour.. better.. but still not great. Left them (nervously) overnight and by morning the tuners were pretty evenly etched. A little nervous about the results. The nickle was rough and hazy, almost like powder coated but at least it was much more even. Fear not..

6) That powdery haze comes off with a very little bit of brasso. Couldnt sleep this morning so got up 20 minutes early and decided to pull the tuners from the tupper ware.. cleaned one up with brasso (just the buttons and the backs and sides) Takes about a min or two per tuner. A final wipe with a little naptha and the tuners were ready and back on after a couple of minutes.

NOTE: The tuners I got were Gotoh TK7679-001. Why is that important? If you are putting them on a roadworn 50s strat (mine is a 2010) they really are drop in replacement. I didnt have to change/age the grommets and screws. Just change the tuners.

NOTE 2: I got the tuners from The Stratosphere on ebay. I have to say the shipping was much faster than I expected.

NOTE 3: I didnt do before pics but here is the pic from ebay and it is pretty accurate. You can see the reflections of the bottom tuners in the buttons of the top tuners.. you cant anymore ;)


BEFORE:



AFTER:
I will try to get pics of the back if anyone is interested.

admin

https://www.wikihow.com/Relic-a-Guitar

http://jwguitarworks.blogspot.com/2013/01/

Metal Pieces
Many youtube videos and websites relic metal pieces by buffing them with steel wool, placing them in a box and shaking them to nick them up then acid treating to oxidize the surface especially in the roughed up spots.  These are way overdone if you look at the Fender Custom Shop series.

The metal wear on the old strat is plenty of tarnish but still a lot of shine. No nicks and very minor scratching. The screw heads and portions of the bridge show heavier tarnishing.























Here is what works to get this close with nickel plate hardware.

1. Don't bang it up or only minor nicks.
2. Acid bath headspace ov sealed container for 2 1/2 hours to oxidize the finish
3. Air dry or 4 hours without wiping or rinsing
4. wipedown with a damp paper towel or cloth



https://www.google.com/search?q=aging+nickel+plated+guitar+parts+with+sealed+casserole+pan+and+muriatic+acid&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CS7g5Dva-M5SIjh9QHrjRLP_1J_1ExKk-XJLasqlJ6JCLJUFyfznZ27sKXwx8juPI67NaCjblxxYIGtUTiOHs-XpFp9ioSCX1AeuNEs_18nEZUMt06L3_1JiKhIJ8TEqT5cktqwRpJPFNTdyDWkqEgmqUnokIslQXBH6L98gznRpOCoSCZ_1OdnbuwpfDETuYtK_1x3ENxKhIJHyO48jrs1oIRN1ygD2gSEPwqEgmNuXHFgga1RBFd0vPqkzdW4ioSCeI4ez5ekWn2EVonKuEHvr8k&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-gYjPuojZAhVB1GMKHcddDIEQ9C96BAgAEB4&biw=1355&bih=1006&dpr=1.1


https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Hardware_Installation/Making_new_tuners_look_vintage.html

admin

 
http://elephant-blog.blogspot.com/2007/05/anecdote-646-part-1.html?m=1






Adrian Belew's story about "the battered strat" used with Talking Heads:


The Battered Strat

and here is my battered strat which graced the cover of the Lone Rhino.

this is the guitar I played on Sheik Yerbouti, Lodger, Remain In Light, the Tom Tom Club, Discipline, Lone Rhino, and quite a few other records from the early eighties. this guitar went around the world at least five times by my count.

for many years now it has hung on my guitar wall in the number one position (first guitar inactive) but today I took it down, cleaned it, restrung it, and played it for a long time. it's still a marvelous instrument. the serial number is 263265 (which means it was probably made in 1969).

the back story to this guitar goes like this: after my first stratocaster was stolen or lost by the airlines I was in a rush to find a replacement before our Zappa tour continued in europe. I found this ugly forgotten brown sunburst strat on the back wall of a music store in nashville. it had no case and was on sale for $285.

returning to california to continue the Zappa tour I showed it to my buddy Seymour Duncan. "what am I gonna do? this guitar is so ugly", I asked. Seymour said, "here, I know what to do".

he went to the trunk of his car and returned with an armful of stuff. screwdrivers, spray paint, lighter fluid, sandpaper. he laid the guitar down in the grass and before I could say a word, he had poured lighter fluid on it and lit it on fire!

it's strange how quickly the finish of a stratocaster burns, spreading out just like the beginning of Bonanza.

"what have you done?!" I shouted.
"too late. now it's art", he laughed.

we spent the next hour doing what today would be called "relic-ing". gouging the finish with screwdrivers, sanding the neck, and jotting on squirts of spray paint. at one point he when back to his car, swiped some grease off the engine bay, and smeared that into the finish as well. as a final indignation, like little boys we dragged the guitar around the yard for a good coat of grass stain and dirt.

the next day when I showed it to frank he quipped, "if you wanted to ruin your guitar adrian why didn't you just loan it to a friend?"

over time the guitar was modified with an Alembic pre-amp, Bowen locking tuning keys, and one of the first Kahler tremolo units given to me by its british inventor Dave Storey. occasionally I would "upgrade" the finish with a splash of paint or a fresh gouge. at one show I let people in the audience carve things into the back of the guitar while I held it out to them from onstage. during the show of course.

the battered strat is priceless to me, but if you have a spa






aliensporebomb

Adrian's strat has lots of interesting stories - the woman who offered Adrian a cigarette from the audience at a show somewhere and he took it to burn the end of the headstock a little bit then gave it back! 

I think he got a good deal with that guitar.

Personally, I prefer guitars to look as new and spotless as possible. 



My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mooncaine

I like the guitar (and the car) to show its age and whatever happens, happens, but I'd be bummed if I knocked a huge hole in the paint. I'd cover it up with a sticker.  :P