VG-99 - Anyone truly happy with their high gain patches.??

Started by clearlight, October 24, 2008, 10:59:02 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

clearlight

Anyone truly happy with their high gain patches.??
I'm talking HIGH gain:   Rammstein, Pantera etc........
My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-

cynegetic


clearlight

Thanks for the reply.

What do you think the deal is on this.
They have a way larger research and development budget than line6 yet the Roland high gain sounds are ok at best.

The VG99 is awesome but i'm considering getting a little POD just for high gain sounds.
My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-

Meltdown

As i said before in another thread, use low eq cut before distortion and amps.
Range 50 to 100hz
You just cleaned up the low rumble mess from your pickups which totally messes up your distortion.
Then use low eq boost after the amp module to get the low end back.

The VG99 has awesome distortion possibilities but you just have to learn how to tweak it.
Visit my website!
http://www.tachyonmusic.com

clearlight


I tried the EQ strategy and it did help. Just not the panacea i hoped it would be.

I'm also gonna check out the metering as theres a slim chance I could be overloading somewhere in the chain.

It just seems strange that Roland would let the Amp models themselves be a problem when EVERYTHING else on this machine blows  most competitors out of the water.

I don't think its only me because the issues have been talked about on many forums since the GT-6  onward.


My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-

Kevin M

Quote from: clearlight on October 24, 2008, 10:59:02 AM
Anyone truly happy with their high gain patches.??
I'm talking HIGH gain:   Rammstein, Pantera etc........

For my purposes, I've found I can get some fairly reasonable high gain patches, although I'm not really familiar with either of your two band examples.  I've tried the VG-88 and POD xt/xtl, and now the VG-99, and find that I come closest with the VG-99 to the particular sound I'm looking for with respect to high gain amp modeling.

cynegetic

@Meltdown

Tried your trick (I think I did it right) and it did add more bass oomph as opposed to muddiness. Could you post a sample of how your are doing it (patch or screens) for reference.

Otherwise, the problem that I have with the higher gain sounds is that no matter what amp sim is used the distortion seems the same. They may be different in tonality but if you were to picture distortion as a waveform in itself all amp sims seems to have the same peaks, valleys, and rates. If that makes sense.

clearlight

Quote from: cynegetic on October 29, 2008, 10:46:59 AM


Otherwise, the problem that I have with the higher gain sounds is that no matter what amp sim is used the distortion seems the same. They may be different in tonality but if you were to picture distortion as a waveform in itself all amp sims seems to have the same peaks, valleys, and rates. If that makes sense.

Thats another thing. The whole "sameyness" aspect.
I'm in no way dissim my VG, but many line 6 amp sims are "magical" in comparison. Responsive and full of what I can only call "character".

Worst case is i'll get a little POD for high gain sounds in the studio.
If anyone has what they think is a really good high gain soun, please post as I put up a bunch of mine mostly in the "magnetic" pickup area since i feel the VGs high gain works best with the mags.
My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-


Smash

Quote from: clearlight on October 24, 2008, 10:59:02 AM
Anyone truly happy with their high gain patches.??
I'm talking HIGH gain:   Rammstein, Pantera etc........

Honestly? No. Crunches? Yes. Decent high gain? No. You can always identify it as a processor, no matter what phase shifting, super short ADTs you add. the VG simply lacks "air". It's sterile.

But that is being super, super critical. Sat in a mix or with a band they can sound really good  - especially if you're using guitar cabs (kind of like an archaic D to A effect - flattering and compressing the right frequencies)

As has been said you really have to understand how to build a tone to get something that "feels" amp-ish. I've spent a long time building a Joe Bonamassa live lead tone - it's 2 separate chains of different Marshall models, all sorts of phase introduction tricks and EQing and it's close. It actually "feels" good to play out on it's own through full range monitors which is a rarity with the VG because high gain solo tones out on their own when you play them can often feel slightly disconnected (I haven't posted the patch yet as I'm trying to get it to clean up properly from the GK volume).

What you have to accept with the VG is that it is incredibly (untouchably in fact) versatile. Some things it does amazingly well, others not so. What it needs is in depth handling to get the best out of it - all been said before really. Whereas you want authentic high gain or any amp tones literally at the flick of a button with massive libraries of free profiles then I would think you shouldn't look anywhere else than a Kemper. The Bias head sounds good but you kind of need to know more about how valve, transformer types and sagging (god knows of got plenty of that at my age!) affects the sound. You have to put your engineer head on with the VG - some people enjoy this, some don't.

I'm at a cross roads myself - I love what the VG offers. I can do pretty much anything but have to accept a few compromises. But all I really want to do is just get out and play with a band at some point and i don't need all this stuff for that. I'd be stoked to have a Kemper and maybe run FTP with the guitar. I am beginning to loath the agro of the GK3 and like the fact I can ping the FTP between guitars (currently fairly permanent fixture on my Variax acoustic).

Ultimately what do you need it to do?

chrish

Quote "Ultimately what do you need it to do?"

I need it to have it's volume turned off so I can use the Spicetone 6appeal for high gain patches. ;)

I remember someone posted a video or sound clip of a trio playing, I think Pink Floyd, and the guitar player was using a VG 99.

While the musicianship was superb and everybody was hitting the notes, the vg-99 just did not seem to sit in the mix and like you say it sounded thin compared to what the bass player and drummer where accomplishing as far as authentic tone goes.

alexmcginness

Plug your guitar into whatever you believe gives you your favorite high gain tone. Record a sample of it and use Har Bal to duplicate the tone in the VG-99
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

GeePeeAxe

Sorry to have to admit: all VGs were OK for me for playing in a cover-band and experimenting with synth-sounds, but for music that should reflects human feelings and needs a very responsive amp, they are not good enough. In high-gain soli the notes die too early or turn to noisy long tails of non-musical stuff - also with the VG-99. I had to sell it and bought a couple ot tube amps to experiment further on my way to find the "holy grail". Cheap solutions are also not right for longer terms. Still one needs some 1000 usd for a good amp+speaker combination...

Today I am happy with an Engl Rockmaster amp and a small speaker.

Authenticity won over versality. Just my experience in 22 years of tweaking comparing systems.

Brak(E)man

I'd never use a regular amp over VG99 in any context.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

Quote from: Brak(E)man on December 21, 2017, 10:54:21 AM
I'd never use a regular amp over VG99 in any context.

The only time I use a real amp is when Im setting up patches and I want to compare the 99 to my Marshall or Fender.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

chrish

Quote: "In high-gain soli the notes die too early or turn to noisy long tails of non-musical stuff - also with the VG-99. "

This.

I find I like the VG 99 for highly effected guitars , with or without the pitch shift  or synth sounds or a combination of the two. It does an okay electric sitar sound and I like the acoustic guitar sounds.

It's a great tool box, however..

To my ears, the VG 99 can't pass the high-gain Strum fadeout test. I hear the digital noise take over as it fades.

admin

#16
QuoteTo my ears, the VG 99 can't pass the high-gain Strum fadeout test. I hear the digital noise take over as it fades.


And often that "digital noise" as the signal fades is a direct result of a poor performing GK 13 pin analog pre-amp feeding the VG-99 GK input. the VG-99 noise increases if you insert a GK Switch box ( US-20), or forget to connect the short 1/4" cable to you guitar to earth ground reference your guitar strings ground to the GK-3 ground.   

In regards to  audio performance and high signal to noise ratio, low THD, high dynamic range.

( worst to best )
 
* Graphtech MIDIHexpander:  has the highest noise  - nearly worthless for use with a VG-8/VG-88 / VG-99 / GP-10

* Old LR Baggs 13 pin Piezo system used on late 1990's 1st generation Godin LGX / xtSA guitars have poor signal to noise.

* The Roland GK-3 is much better , has much lower noise than above..

* Latest RMC Polydrive preamps often have improved signal to noise performance compared to  GK-3.


chrish

Quote from: admsustainiac on December 21, 2017, 10:41:54 PM

And often that "digital noise" as the signal fades is a direct result of a poor performing GK 13 pin analog pre-amp feeding the VG-99 GK input. the VG-99 noise increases if you insert a GK Switch box ( US-20), or forget to connect the short 1/4" cable to you guitar to earth ground reference your guitar strings ground to the GK-3 ground.   

In regards to  audio performance and high signal to noise ratio, low THD, high dynamic range.

( worst to best )
 
* Graphtech MIDIHexpander:  has the highest noise  - nearly worthless for use with a VG-8/VG-88 / VG-99 / GP-10

* Old LR Baggs 13 pin Piezo system used on late 1990's 1st generation Godin LGX / xtSA guitars have poor signal to noise.

* The Roland GK-3 is much better , has much lower noise than above..

* Latest RMC Polydrive preamps often have improved signal to noise performance compared to  GK-3.
Cool. I'll have to try it without the US-20 connected.

I always have the 1/4" cable connected, guitar out to gk3 in.

Smash

Love is blind lol! EQ only gets you so far - there is something inherently missing for high gain stuff.

Ultimately though if you're happy with what it achieves that's all that matters.


rolandvg99

The trick for sustain is to use a small monitor you can "lean" into. I use a ZT Lunchbox and cab live to control sustain when using my VG-99, GP-10, SY-300 or VoiceLive 3X. No need for the sound to be awesome trough those speakers as long as it triggers the desired sustain.


A re-amp trick is to dial in the tone that trigger sustain at will and then dial in the perfect tone afterwards. Gain for sustain only get you that far. Hi-gain patches also need more GK input to keep the noise floor low. Synths often respond best with this low. Therfore I run GK-settings per patch rather than global when switching between multiple simulations live.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

Smash

Now here's a thing - I watched a Katana demo vid the other day where he was playing alternate soft then hard notes to demonstrate the valve like "reactivity" of the Katana amp.

I'd never noticed it before in any other demo but the way he did it instantly I thought wow, that really DOES sound a LOT like the use of VG99 picking dynamics control to slide between two different gain settings on the same amp model. I mean it really sounded obvious.

Then I started wondering about the Katana's GT100 origins.....then I started wondering about the pick strength divider function and whether it's playing a role here.

I'm convinced something very much like this is happening to emulate the holy grail of valve dynamics.

So, may be an interesting experiment to setup two identical amp channels on VG99 but clean one up slightly, maybe back off the mids a tad and put the adv comp after the output of teh slightly higher gain amp chain only then use the picking dynamics control and see if you can get the feel more Katana like...

sixeight

QuoteSo, may be an interesting experiment to setup two identical amp channels on VG99 but clean one up slightly, maybe back off the mids a tad and put the adv comp after the output of teh slightly higher gain amp chain only then use the picking dynamics control and see if you can get the feel more Katana like...

Tried that a long time ago, but it didn't sound natural. I find the GP10 does a much better job. I actually play the GP10 more than the VG99 because of the improved amp modeling.

Smash

Will try to find the video again - it really did sound very obvious...

admin

Quote from: Smash on December 27, 2017, 12:43:32 AM
Now here's a thing - I watched a Katana demo vid the other day where he was playing alternate soft then hard notes to demonstrate the valve like "reactivity" of the Katana amp.

I'd never noticed it before in any other demo but the way he did it instantly I thought wow, that really DOES sound a LOT like the use of VG99 picking dynamics control to slide between two different gain settings on the same amp model. I mean it really sounded obvious.

Then I started wondering about the Katana's GT100 origins.....then I started wondering about the pick strength divider function and whether it's playing a role here.

I'm convinced something very much like this is happening to emulate the holy grail of valve dynamics.

So, may be an interesting experiment to setup two identical amp channels on VG99 but clean one up slightly, maybe back off the mids a tad and put the adv comp after the output of teh slightly higher gain amp chain only then use the picking dynamics control and see if you can get the feel more Katana like...

I find the new GT-1 ( just as Katana) on all high gain patches  also clean up well when backing down the guitar volume. And leaves workable clean rhythm guitar tones  - instead of noise :)

This partially due to the improved AKM A/D and D/A used in these new products  vs the 10 year old VG-99 design

mooncaine

In the past few months I've enjoyed using the GT-1 as a practice rig, once or twice a stage rig, when the music was stuff I'd want to play on the mag pickups. Turning down, adjusting tone knobs, working pretty well for me.

A bugbear is how to adapt the GT-1 on real short notice to a different amp, because I almost never use it plugged into my own. It's portable. That's the point. But sometimes, it has to go into whatever Fender, Peavey, Vox or Orange combo happens to be available on the backline. I'm just a guest. I need to be a more polite guest, and be sure I'm picking the best output mode that doesn't suddenly blast the room with treble.

BTW, I got a great result from a vg99 a few weeks ago where the only amp for me was a Roland Cube. It had a channel or switch that suggested "JC120 mode", so I used that, set my VG99 output to match it, and got nice tones & compliments on 'em.