Majiken's ATG/GK into Electra MPC Project

Started by Majiken, December 29, 2016, 03:42:04 PM

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Majiken



This is going to be a long story, will try to split it up into reasonable portions.....

START:  my very first electric guitar was a 1977 Electra MPC330X, which I bought new in Indianapolis AT RETAIL PRICE (young, poor and VERY foolish).  I was in love with Les Pauls, but their quality at that time was really spotty, plus Electra had exchangeable effects modules, which back then was high-tech deluxe.  The tiger-striping on the sunburst took me over the edge- only years later did I realize that the top was laminated  :-\ oh well.....
Here's the front.  Note the 5-way switch: positions 2-4 were the standard neck/both/treble pickups in parallel, position 1 was both in series (full but muddy), position 5 was both in series but out of phase (usable).  The first two pots are master volume and tone, behind them are switches and pots to dose in each of the 2 available effects.  The original Magnaflux PUs went seriously microphonic, so I replaced them with Carvin M22s.


Here's the back side with the covers opened so you can see what was going on in there.  Due to the muddiness of position 1, I also put in an OBL EQ4000...


I brought this guitar with me to Germany back in '78, and it was for many years my main/only guitar, paying for itself many times over.  BTW, it was built in Japan, the workmanship and durability are excellent and it has held up well to this day.  Unfortunately, since I play primarily solo and "acoustic" these days, it has languished for too long in its case; plus, replugging the effects modules I still have indicates to me that sound and taste have changed, and they are generally too noisy and limited to consider using them today.  What to do?  I tried a JTV-59 a couple of years ago and really wanted to like it, but frankly speaking the build quality was not nearly on a par with my Electra and more importantly, I didn't get along with the acoustic and 12-string models, so I sent that back.   I get along quite well with the GP-10 instrument models through the 13-pin cable, but contrary to many here, I prefer to have the guitar models in the guitar if possible.  Also, I use a lot of alternate tunings and as has been discussed deeply in other posts here, the GP-10 is subject to warbling that is at times borderline at best.  Antares ATG stuff is really hard to get in Germany and ridiculously expensive, but I did get a chance to take an ATG-1 for a test drive and I found the guitar models and tuning stability especially regarding lack of fadeout warbling at minimum equal to and generally noticeably superior to the GP-10.  Based on that, coupled with the outstanding forum group buy (THANK YOU!!!) I decided to take a leap of faith and order the luthier kit.  Having an internal GK kit available and of course wanting everything, the desire arose to ask my local guitar electronics guru if he could install both.  Gumbo/Peter (he of the immaculate Synth-Linx jacks) has been very kind in providing sage advice, based on his experience with Vade's FTP wiring project described in detail here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10117.0

Enough for now, next post will detail the planned layout.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Majiken

CONCEPT:  okay, after brainstorming with Henrik (BEADGC, mod for this thread) from Antares I figured out the configuration ATG kit I needed to order.  The only trick was that the original 5-way Electra PU switch would not work, and Antares only has a 5-way blade switch available.  Enter Alasdair Bryce and his Freeway 3x3-05 Ultra switch!  He and I came up with a wiring setup for the standard pickups; I sent him the Antares installation manual and connected him with Henrik, and based on their discussion Alasdair came up with the following wiring scheme:

BTW, I found this to be excellent service from both Alasdair and Henrik!
Rockinger in Germany had the simpler Freeway switch but not the one I needed, so I ordered it from England.  In the meantime the ATG kit came in, so I devised the following layout:
FRONT:

REAR:


The plan is to put the ATG and its required battery power in the compartment previously occupied by the effects modules; the GK kit goes where the OBL 4000 was.  The hex pickup signal will be split prior to hitting anything, so it will be a parallel path to both boards- theoretically meaning that both systems could be used together, which due to the likelihood of microtuning differences would likely sound, uh, suboptimal.... my idea is to just juggle the volume knobs as necessary, or since I hope to go wireless with the ATG/mag PUs I would only plug in the 13-pin cable when I actually needed it for something like a sitar or synth-like sound the ATG can't provide.

So, off with all of that stuff to my solder guru!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

whippinpost91850


Majiken

Okay, might as well bite the bullet and give you the status as of right now- just after Xmas the guru said the ATG is up and running and he's ready to test the GK part.  Me gets into my car with my GK-55, this is what I see when I get to his shrine:




Clean install of the hex pickup, the bridge PU frame had to be moved forward a pubic hair.  The Freeway switch makes it look more like a Paula than ever before; the silver knobs came with the ATG (I'd like to find screwable gold knobs more like the originals, but it's not the highest priority at this moment).  The graphite paint has been covered by copper foil, the planned space works without a problem.  Guru wanted to test the GK system before drilling the hole for the 13-pin jack; worked perfectly with the GR55 including combining models and mags.  Bizarrely, the encoders didn't work properly- he was confused, saying they did the day before (and I believe him).  The scoop tuning into perfect pitch and the switching between ATG and mags works fine.  He'll figure that out with the encoders, the issue occurred before we plugged the GK in, so I don't think one system is interfering with another.  I am totally chuffed with the Freeway switch, it is friggin' brilliant! Works perfectly, feels great and solid, and the Carvins have never sounded better, no mud whatsoever.  Maybe the ATG pots are also influencing that positively, but the mag sound is exciting me!
So, what remains? 
-Fix the encoder issue
-Figure out what kind of rechargeable battery to use (right now we're leaning to a 5v with high capacity, my guy wants to set it up so it can stay in the guitar and be charged with a standard cell phone charger (would be great)
-Drill and install the 13-pin jack next to the 1/4" one
-Install the 8-pin midi jack for the ATG; this will likely be on the back cover in the ATG compartment, as it will be rarely used
-Get and install the on/off/on switch for GK program up-down, or more likely something else like GK pickup selector.  The 3-way switch will not be installed, mix will be permanently active and controlled by the volume pots/patch settings

We hope this will all be finished by the end of next week; I will keep you informed!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

whippinpost91850


Majiken

Thanks, he's a very conscientious guy, which is why I'm confident everything will end up sorted.  I'll pass your praise on, sure he'll appreciate it  :D
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

gumbo

It's looking good Kenny!

My congratulations too...  ...and Happy New Year!   ;D

Peter
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Majiken

SO- the axe is back!  Here's the front side, still wondering about screwable gold knobs:

Here's the ex-FX module compartment, now filled with the ATG module including 8-pin midi jack mounted on acrylic and power supply:

We decided not to put a fixed cover on, but to keep the original hinged cover.  This allows putting the rarely-used ATG midi jack out of the way without having to drill an additional hole into the body.  The rechargeable battery is a Trond with 5v 4000mAh, and powers the ATG system only.  Guru connected via 2 9v block connectors, so in case of emergency could use a standard 9v block (not expected, nice to have).  Antares warned about placing the power supply too close to the PCB, but so far there are no negative sonic effects to be heard, AND the Trond protects the ATG board to a large extent, which is a worry I had regarding an openable compartment cover.
Here's the back with the ATG section closed and the standard compartment opened:

Here's a closeup of the standard compartment, note the GK PCB:

Here's the jackplate, the only major drilling other than the hex pickup screw holes was for the 13-pin jack installation (wrong way around, the cable lock is on the back instead of the front side, but no biggie)

And here is Kai (the Guru), giving Electra the sendoff blessing:


I haven't been able to connect the guitar to Antares yet, so the ATG system is functional but surely not optimized so far (got the M-Audio Midisport Uno but didn't realize I also needed a midi Y-cable, should arrive tomorrow or so, grrrrr).  My initial impressions:

- the Shadow hex pickup has got a sharp corner (see pic) that I will round off somewhat, even if I end up with a hole.  Palm muting is important to me; I don't understand other than for economical production reasons that someone would design it like that- it can't be hurting only me....

- I entered the Electra GK settings into my GP10, called up and tweaked some of my Godin LGXT patches, and I think they actually sound a tad better than the Godin!  Mag hex vs. piezos?  Dunno, will recheck and retweak the LGXT patches, thought they were pretty good, maybe it's the halo effect.  At any rate, GK and regular mag pickups work like a charm :-D!
- As reported before elsewhere, I also play non-hex instruments and therefore have a 1/4" cable parallel to my GK cable for the mags, then a separate 1/4" cable for acoustic guitar, banjo etc. and switch between the regular cables with an XY switch.  I suddenly have background noise when plugging both cables into the Electra- it's not loud and tolerable (only noticeable when I'm not playing, not a buzz or anything like that), but when I pull one plug, the noise goes away.  After some testing, I think the issue is actually in the line between the 1/4" cable and the GP10- the signal goes guitar-XY- TC BodyRez; I will snuff that out and fix it.
- I never noticed it on the Godin before, but I get the impression that my 2-cable system loads the GP input down somehow.  When I pull one plug out, the signal gets noticeably hotter in the patch, in the worst case mildly overdriving the acoustic models.  Gotta understand what's going on there and figure out how to address it...

For reasons stated above, I will keep the comment on the ATG brief prior to deeper examination.
- it works!  Warbling dramatically less than the GP10, will record comparisons post-deeper examination.
- the Fret Control is actually surprisingly intuitive, however I often go back to the original preset and restart from there with tunings and models.  I could probably live without the encoders with a little practice; time will tell.
- Master volume control is useless for gain control, the taper is IMO not good, you go from 100% full on to just about zero volume turning the knob back only about 30%.  This is the same for ATG models and the mag pickups.  To be fair, the original Electra volume control didn't work for gain either, maybe due to the circuitry used then, and maybe also now?  I can emulate the gain behavior on a GP10 patch using the foot pedal, so there is a workaround- but if I were running straight into an amp, that could end up being a deal-breaker.

Although it may read otherwise, I'm pretty happy so far, and would consider the operation a preliminary success.  More to come.....

P.S.  very happy for Postimage, Snapagogo adé!

Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Majiken

Oh, one question:  anybody got a suggestion for a visually elegant/at least not utterly stupid looking vibrational damper for the strings between the bridge and tailpiece? Velcro, okay..... I got a Tesla damper originally for this purpose, but it's not wide enough.  Ideas would be appreciated, thanks!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

vtgearhead

Quote from: Majiken on January 04, 2017, 11:54:36 AM
Master volume control is useless for gain control, the taper is IMO not good, you go from 100% full on to just about zero volume turning the knob back only about 30%.  This is the same for ATG models and the mag pickups.

That almost sounds like you're using an audio taper pot to voltage control a circuit that was designed to model an audio taper when used with a linear pot.  Piling one log taper on top of another would behave exactly as you describe.

Majiken

Oh my goodness  :o thanks for the info, might you be able to suggest a possible solution? I'd love to fix it if I could... hmm, I must note that it is the pot that has a push function, when you hold it down you perform either the tuning or fret control functions  ???  As you can see, I am a total electronics novice...

I'll try to get specifics on the pot!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

vtgearhead

I'm just taking a WAG, not knowing the details.  Is this one of the pots that was supplied by Antares?  If so, I would have to assume it's the appropriate taper. 

Elantric

QuoteI would have to assume it's the appropriate taper.

I think each Antares pot needs a review ;)

be sure to read the Internal kit install instructions attached to first post here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13462.0


Majiken

Deep-diving all the available documentation was critical before buying the kit sight-unseen... interestingly enough the taper seems to work somewhat better going straight into the DAW (old Presonus StudioLive with the delivered version of Ampire)  ???

Midi cable arrived, more testing in the next days.....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Majiken

Well, to quote Boston: "it's been such a long time...."

One of the things that took so long was the fact that try as I may, I couldn't get the guitar to connect to the software!  Seems others have had the same problem; I must credit Henrik for working through the issue tirelessly with me, including multiple Skype video calls.  My specific problem is in the guitar somewhere, but even though I have been able to connect once or twice (and at least get the basic settings like scale length dialled in) that element is erratic at best.  The pot tapers seem halfway normal in the meantime, and general function and performance such that I finally took it out for a gig last Friday.  Had an acclimatization period throughout the first set, mainly due to the guitar itself- had it up too high, I am used in the meantime to the greater string spacing of acoustic guitars etc., but stuck with it and fortunately the crowd didn't seem to mind and it ended up being a good gig.  I only used two models: the Tele with both pickups on open E, plus the dreadnought acoustic in standard tuning, with 12-string, drop D and one whole step down.  Sometimes things didn't seem quite right, so between then and now I have been playing straight into the board without effects and I think I have found my culprit!  What my ears hear are that the moment I leave straight standard tuning, the processing kicks in some kind of compression that is so heavy it "squashes" the notes and adds a brittle quality to the tone.  This is actually not bad for some electric pickup settings, but on the acoustic especially my top 3 strings take on an almost stratocaster-type tone.  In addition, the 12-string tone has a kind of 80s Rockman midrange honk, or think in terms of 70s Marshall/Gary Richrath very popular rock guitar tone- know what I mean?  Yes, it is subtle, but very noticeable to my ears; I find the GP10 12-string and transposed sounds to be smoother and more natural, unfortunately with that damn warble.  I don't know if the compression and honk can be exorcised out of the ATG by software system settings; right now I think EQ tweaking would take even more of the natural quality out of the sound.  Suggestions would be welcome!
At this point, I perceive the advantages of ATG to be 1. the lack of warbling 2. the quality of their models 3. usable with a normal guitar cable.  The advantages of Roland for me are 1. the naturalness of some of their models and tunings (ignoring the warbling) 2. the greater number of models available, especially nylon, Rick, sitar & L4 3. the possibility to mix modeled and straight guitar tones

I can use both systems in the meantime on stage, and I will.  The road goes on forever......

P.S.  My Godin LGXT, with its body shapings, is more ergonomically comfortable than the Electra.  No, I am NOT going to gut the Godin to install the ATG  :o   
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

carlb

Hi Ken,

To help the ATG I've tried various acoustic instrument enhancers including the Xvive Mike acoustic guitar enhancement pedal, but the one that seemed to help the most is the BBE Sonic Stomp maximizer.

It doesn't necessarily add more bass or treble, it somehow changes them out to ... better bass and treble. Opened-up. So it's not an EQ trick that I could at all duplicate with EQs.

Give that a shot, I think it goes toward what you're looking for.

Agree with you completely on the ATG vs. GP-10 acoustic simulations: the GP-10 is so much better except for the darned warbles with pitch shift and with the twelve strings.

Because I need everything else that the GP-10 offers for Rick, L4, nylon string, as well as amps, and because I limit my gig rig to "single trip haul," the ATG floor pedal doesn't make it to my gigs. With a bit of careful voicing choices with drop-d and open-g tunings, I can make the GP-10 very serviceable for my rig. Very subtle palm-muting helps too.

Wish I could get a hex guitar that doesn't have the warbles with the GP-10. They seem to be out there ...

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Majiken

Hi Carl, thanks for the BBE tip, I know a guy with an Acoustimax and I asked him to bring it over next practice session. He had it at an earlier one, and I recall thinking how good it sounded.  I understand you can bypass the eqs by using the insert- that would tell me if the sonic stomp will do the trick.

Where do you put it in your signal chain? I'm guessing you play mono & it's after the GP10 output?

Warble-free guitar, come to me too...... ;-)
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

carlb

Yes I play mono, it's more compact. And I use the GP-10 right channel as an effects loop out that I bring back into the 1/4" input. And that requires running the GP-10 mono, too.

The Sonic Stomp goes between the GP-10 and the FRFR powered speaker. Since my speaker has a balanced out, both my speaker and my signal in the mains get the BBE.

BBE makes a mini-stomp, two of those wouldn't take up much space, and stereo would be even better.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Majiken

Tried the BBE Acoustimax, it didn't solve the specific problem but is a great piece of kit that makes things sound better; this includes the EQ section, which I found works well on every instrument I threw it at.  The enhancer part seems to have a sweet spot that improves everything as well, the reason I haven't gotten the mini version (yet) is because that sweet spot varies per instrument, and I don't want to have to adjust live with every instrument change- if it only had preset memory!!  That said, I believe I'll find a single setting that will be a good across-the-board compromise, and then I'll buy two mini-stomps for stereo use. Thanks, Carl, for the tip!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Majiken

#19
.... in the meantime, I have successfully done 2 solo gigs with the Electra and ATG solely set on the acoustic MA28 model as my only guitar, including with an XVive wireless (finally wireless again, hooray!).  I have had to adjust my heavy-handed acoustic playing somewhat to offset the compression that sets in when I spank the electric too hard; fascinating to turn the volume up and cover dynamics with a much lighter touch than on pure acoustic- but it works!  I would have liked to have access to the GP nylon and sitar, but honestly I wasn't in concert settings, more beer garden type stuff, so the audiences didn't miss it.  The GP allows me to switch between tunings and 12-string at the press of a button, but the ATG just sounds better- that's it!

My signal flow is as follows:  Electra/ATG into the GP10 for amp, EQ and mono FX.  The left GP10 output feeds the guitar input of a TC Helicon VL3X, which I got primarily for vocal harmonies & FX.  Each preset has the same boost (mostly for when I fingerpick, I have no nails) plus guitar stereo delay, reverb and spacial chorus FX, each individually on/off switchable).  The FX levels are set fairly high, as I run the headphone output of the GP10 with the quasi- "pure" signal into the aux in of the TC-Helicon and control that level with a volume pedal for the aux volume.  A lot of flexibility live for my needs, with each piece of equipment running semi-dedicated assignments.

I use the encoder on the guitar for the following:
1. 6-string, standard tuning
2. 12-string, standard tuning
3. open E
4. 6-string, tuned down one whole step
5. 12-string, tuned down one whole step
6. 6-string, drop D
7. 12-string, drop D
8. 6-string, double drop D
9. open F

I can work the fret control to change instrument models if I want; after almost a year of frustration I finally got the guitar connection with the preset software to work, by unplugging EVERY other USB connection on the computer  >:(.  I may get back into a cover band again, if so the preset loading will come in handy.  By the way, Henrik was very good in his support- we skyped several times, and he gave me an updated version of the preset manager (which basically has some scrolling available).  He says there are still some bugs in there which will obviously not be fixed- I didn't notice them so far- but he allowed me to offer the program to the group, if you are interested.  The file is about 9MB, I could either upload it here or into Dropbox and anybody wanting it could PM me your Email addy.  Interest?

To semi-close this thread out, I ordered a second luthier kit which I will include in a custom-built guitar without standard pickups somewhere down the road.  An Evertune bridge will be part of the equation, other details tbd.

Finally, Henrik, thank you for your support and the really interesting discussions we have had!  Somehow I believe there will be a resurrection someday, somewhere.....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

cags12

Quote from: Majiken on August 15, 2017, 03:13:43 PM
For a detailed look at a combined ATG/GK3 build, look here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19806.0

Both systems work fine on their own, the only issue that I have is a tremendous drop in the ATG volume when the 13-pin cable is plugged in. 
Quote from: admsustainiac on August 15, 2017, 03:32:47 PM
That's because Antares did not account for the added impedance load on the GK string signals of a 2nd connected GK Processor.   

You would think they would have acquired / borrowed a GR-55 or GP-10 to test / develop / verify the functionality of the ATG-1's 13 pin  GK Out jack  - but i understand that did not occur

Note: --- Posting onto this thread what I mentioned on the other as it would be more relevant here for others to read ----

You Installation is a bit different than the one described in the Installation manual. If I understood correctly you are splitting the HEX pickup into both systems, GK and ATG. I guess this would explain the effect you have when activating both systems at the same time.

However, the installation on the Adrian Belew Parker consisted on taking the signal from the 13 pin connector (post pre-amp) and split it to the DSP board (Unity gain/Piezo version), then the signal is routed back to pin 7 of the GK connector as well as the 1/4" Jack and Din 8.

This way you can use ATG with the GP-10 amp models and effects via the GK connector and easily switch patches to full GP-10 Hex processing.

This is something I have planned and even ordered a spare Piezo version of the DSP4 board. Also after a lot of email with Henrik.

cags12

Quote from: Majiken on August 15, 2017, 03:04:11 PM

And he gave me an updated version of the preset manager (which basically has some scrolling available).  He says there are still some bugs in there which will obviously not be fixed- I didn't notice them so far- but he allowed me to offer the program to the group, if you are interested.  The file is about 9MB, I could either upload it here or into Dropbox and anybody wanting it could PM me your Email addy.  Interest?
I am interested, could you please share?

Quote from: Majiken on August 15, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Finally, Henrik, thank you for your support and the really interesting discussions we have had!  Somehow I believe there will be a resurrection someday, somewhere.....
I have hope as well even though I was told it is very unlikely the tech will resurrect in any other shape or form. I hope it was just a misleading info to not say the real plans. It simply does not make sense to me (such a waste) letting this tech die and not even somehow allow external development or licensing, etc... Fingers crossed.

Majiken

Quote from: cags12 on August 15, 2017, 05:21:15 PM
Note: --- Posting onto this thread what I mentioned on the other as it would be more relevant here for others to read ----

You Installation is a bit different than the one described in the Installation manual. If I understood correctly you are splitting the HEX pickup into both systems, GK and ATG. I guess this would explain the effect you have when activating both systems at the same time.

However, the installation on the Adrian Belew Parker consisted on taking the signal from the 13 pin connector (post pre-amp) and split it to the DSP board (Unity gain/Piezo version), then the signal is routed back to pin 7 of the GK connector as well as the 1/4" Jack and Din 8.

This way you can use ATG with the GP-10 amp models and effects via the GK connector and easily switch patches to full GP-10 Hex processing.

This is something I have planned and even ordered a spare Piezo version of the DSP4 board. Also after a lot of email with Henrik.

Hey cags12, thanks much for the explanation! The installation was way beyond my capability; I did read the Belew installation, but obviously missed the routing there.  I'll check with my guru to see how easily he can adjust the wiring- would be great to be able to have both systems plugged and immediately available.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

GuitarBuilder

Have you tried MIDI Designer on iPad for ATG preset control?  I like having the two encoders on my ATG guitar, but MIDI control (ideally via foot controller) would be more desirable for me.  I've tested the iPad approach and it works very well; my next step is to integrate my KMI Softstep 2.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on August 16, 2017, 07:26:26 AM
Have you tried MIDI Designer on iPad for ATG preset control?  I like having the two encoders on my ATG guitar, but MIDI control (ideally via foot controller) would be more desirable for me.  I've tested the iPad approach and it works very well; my next step is to integrate my KMI Softstep 2.

Correct  - MIDI Designer ipad app ships with an Antares ATG Control template that supports either ATG-1 or Antares Internal Kits or Peavey AT-200