RC300 simulated master serial sync settings

Started by gregsgear, February 01, 2013, 12:04:08 PM

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gregsgear

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum, but I've been reading looper manuals and messages to evaluate the RC300. Some track management information is scattered through many threads, with an occasional contradiction. I'd appreciate it if an on-the-fly loop performer would spell out the some settings for one Boomerang-like behavior – serial use of Track 2 and Track 3 over a master Track 1 rhythm.

For the sake of review, I mean something like the Boomerang Master Serial Sync:
1) Track 1: Record chick-chick guitar rhythm for two bars. This will continue playing under other loops.
2) Track 2: Record a verse-like A-section for the tune. Track 1 continues underneath.
3) Track 3: Record a chorus-like B-section for the tune. Track 2 is off, but the Track 1 rhythm continues underneath.
Throughout the song, alternate as needed between Tracks 2 and 3 playback. These two tracks are mutually exclusive.

I know I'll also need to be mindful of measure multiples in my tune structure.

Here are some questions?

1) My understanding is that the RC300 can do this with some programming. Are these settings correct?
REC pedal setting (global): Rec->Play
Single Track Play: OFF
Loop Sync: ON
Tempo Sync: OFF
Measure Setting for all tracks: FREE

2) To end recording on Track 2 and begin recording on Track 3, would I use this track setting?
Track 3: A Rec/Play click runs an Assign setting that stops Track 2.

3) If I want the option to overdub more layers on Track 2 later, would I use something similar for Track 2?
Track 2: A Rec/Play click runs an Assign setting that stops Track 3.

4) Do I need additional Assigns and external pedals that make Track 2 and Track 3 mutually exclusive by setting their volume levels? This is implied in some threads, but I don't quite understand why, if the Assigns take care of stopping the alternating tracks.

5) Assuming that Track 1 is playing with solid time underneath, is there really no way to arm Track 3 recording before I'm finished recording Track 2 in this mode?  Maybe this is a Boomerang-exclusive perk. Maybe my Track 3 RECORD timing needs to be exact on beat 1 with the RC300.

6) What are the RECORD timing hazards when switching from Track 2 recording to Track 3 recording?

7) If loop sync is ON, I guess the loop start beats will always be aligned. What are the practical playback timing hazards? Is the worse case that I'll slightly truncate Track 2 playback when switching to Track 3, revealing the end of Track 3 audio a little ahead of the transition?


Just FYI. I have some experience with the original Digitech Jamman (which stopped working), the looper in the Line6 M9, and some Boss programming with an old GT8. I've also read about the different features that are emphasized by the Boomerang. This happens to be a feature that would make the RC300 very complete for me. I just want to be sure I understand the settings and possibilities.

Thanks a lot!

- gregsgear

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Threeleggedyoyo

#1
Hi gregsgear,

Welcome!

I don't have the 300 yet, but am quite familiar with the 50 and have read up on the 300 a lot too. I can't answer all your questions but hopefully I can help a little until someone else chimes in. You have a lot of questions (and that's ok!) so maybe I can chip a few away.

Yes, you can do what you are looking to through assigns. There's a couple ways to do it, all involving overloading (assigning more than one function to a single button)

Button 1) Assigned to Play/Stop for Phrase 2.

Button 2) Same thing for Phrase 3.

Come to think of it, you could put both of those buttons onto a single external button if you wish, so it just toggles.

NOTE that this does NOT activate Record or Overdub for either Phrase. Play and Overdub are seperate assignments even though they are activated by the same native button.

In practice, this means your "switch" button is only good to activate previously recorded material, not to make new stuff.

So you may want to use two more assigns... make the Rec/Overdub button also turn OFF the other Phrase.

Am I right? It takes 4 assigns to do this properly? Someone will chime in here. It's a pretty popular setting.

One alternative method you might consider is to just play in Single mode (you're wanting some of a little; two tracks on Single and one in Multi). You'd have to record your guitar chick-a-chick twice, but you wouldn't have to mess with any assigns or anything, and it might be simpler in the long run.

I feel like I might be able to answer some of the other questions, but I don't want to steer you wrong in case the details on the top of my head are off. I'll wait and see if someone with a 300 in front of them can help you first.



Threeleggedyoyo

#2
K, I lied, more answers for you. Guys, if I get something wrong, please correct me for greg's sake.

Answers:

1) I get Loop and Tempo Sync mixed up, but I believe you have the right ones.

2) See previous post.

3) I think you'll need 2-4 of 8 assigns to do this from Multi Mode.

If you want to Overdub in the setup we're discussing, you'll need to use the native Phrase buttons, not your programmed extensions.

4) No need to worry about volume levels. You can MUTE tracks through volume levels if you need to play a FOURTH phrase without destroying previously recorded material, and without interrupting play of an external drum machine. This is unimportant for your stated purposes. It is a pretty specific use case, though one I'm fond of.

5-7) Not to worry. You can set your box to "Loop End." This does two things:

A) When you stop a phrase, it will finish playing it until the end first. This much is certain.
B) When you arm a new recorded phrase, it will finish playing it until the end first.

The one exception to this is if you're going straight from one Record (not Overdub or Play) to another record. In this case it will take that stomp as ending your first loop and starting the new one.

NOTE: I could be wrong on this! Multi Mode may behave differently, but I'm pretty sure this still works the same way. Regardless, worst case scenario is that the recording starts a little early, but your playing won't be early, so you're ok.

gregsgear

Thanks for the follow-up. I realized upon re-reading that I asked quite a web of questions. I guess I'm still organizing my thoughts on it.

Single-track mode does seem simpler for sequences than this hybrid setup. I have also considered slaving a drum machine to the RC300. That would make the chick-chick guitar rhythm unnecessary, and single-track would be fine. That's practically its own thread (but feel free to recommend one), and the RC is a significant purchase as it is.

Lastly, I guess I could just use multi mode, record a simple chick-chick on Track 1, and record the entire form (AABA) on Track 2. That would actually be necessary if the form had 1st and 2nd endings anyway, like an A1 A2 B A3 form. I know I can find the settings for that in another forum thread.

If Track 1 became repetitious, I could overdub variations later in the tune and use undo/redo to toggle between the simple Track 1 rhythm and its variation.

Anyway, you're probably onto something in suggesting a simpler setup. I do want some brain power leftover for playing.

I hadn't thought of muting to make space for another phrase. There are quite a few ways to vary a tune with this many tracks and assigns.

Thanks again,

Greg
- gregsgear

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Threeleggedyoyo

#4
Quote from: gregsgear on February 01, 2013, 09:08:21 PM
Thanks for the follow-up. I realized upon re-reading that I asked quite a web of questions. I guess I'm still organizing my thoughts on it.

Single-track mode does seem simpler for sequences than this hybrid setup. I have also considered slaving a drum machine to the RC300. That would make the chick-chick guitar rhythm unnecessary, and single-track would be fine. That's practically its own thread (but feel free to recommend one), and the RC is a significant purchase as it is.

Lastly, I guess I could just use multi mode, record a simple chick-chick on Track 1, and record the entire form (AABA) on Track 2. That would actually be necessary if the form had 1st and 2nd endings anyway, like an A1 A2 B A3 form. I know I can find the settings for that in another forum thread.

If Track 1 became repetitious, I could overdub variations later in the tune and use undo/redo to toggle between the simple Track 1 rhythm and its variation.

Anyway, you're probably onto something in suggesting a simpler setup. I do want some brain power leftover for playing.

I hadn't thought of muting to make space for another phrase. There are quite a few ways to vary a tune with this many tracks and assigns.

Thanks again,

Greg

No problem.

I really prefer Single mode, personally.

There's some other options for you for getting that basic guitar part, too...

1) Use the RC-300's internal delay along with whatever you were playing anyway.
2) Drum machines
3) Record the phrase on two Single tracks
4) SL-20 has a midi-synced looper on it, but only for the wet part of effect. Good for the kind of thing you mention. Check it out.
5) Here's another crazy one: use the extra long Delay to play the phrase you want on both phrases in between. Example:

Play phrase 2.
Play guitar part for both parts with extra long delay (you can go up to 2 measures)
Play Phrase 3 with the delay echo going. Kill the delay before the new phrase starts repeating.

The mute thing is great for when you just need to have a little different ending on a phrase. That way you just play the different ending. UNDO/Redo also really helpful. You can also clear tracks you aren't using again. There are a lot of options here.

Hopkins

I'll check this also when I get home at the end of the week.  I seem to remember playing around trying to simulate the Rang's hybrid mode and it *might* be possible to do this just with assigns overloading the buttons on the unit...  I cannot quite remember.  According to the note I made in the Feature Requests "Additional Play Modes" section, it is possible with a single external switch, after recording the tracks 2 and 3 normally.

gregsgear

Thanks for thinking through my questions.

Over the course of the past few weeks, my looper research has gone on a bit of a detour.

I've given some thought to getting a used sampler (MPC or SP555 or another) or a drum machine as well. This raises questions about odd meters, reliable MIDI sync and coordinating looper tracks with patterns in a rhythm device. And I guess it comes down to deciding whether I really even want to get into the quirks and complexities of MIDI sync. It's starting to make my head hurt, and it sounds like some people successfully use samplers alongside loopers without even bothering to sync. I also realize that the 300 only officially works as a master, although I see some suggestions about receiving tempo from other devices.

Anyway, probably a separate thread.

Greg
- gregsgear

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Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: gregsgear on February 12, 2013, 06:06:02 PM
Thanks for thinking through my questions.

Over the course of the past few weeks, my looper research has gone on a bit of a detour.

I've given some thought to getting a used sampler (MPC or SP555 or another) or a drum machine as well. This raises questions about odd meters, reliable MIDI sync and coordinating looper tracks with patterns in a rhythm device. And I guess it comes down to deciding whether I really even want to get into the quirks and complexities of MIDI sync. It's starting to make my head hurt, and it sounds like some people successfully use samplers alongside loopers without even bothering to sync. I also realize that the 300 only officially works as a master, although I see some suggestions about receiving tempo from other devices.

Anyway, probably a separate thread.

Greg

I have used Midi drum syncing with the RC50 and also have an SP505... feel free to ask any questions.

I wouldn't try to use the RC-300 as anything but the master. The 50 is slightly better at that, but still a pain. They seem to work well as masters though.

As far as odd tempos, you are stuck with the tempo on the Loopstation. I've been wanting to mess around with odd meters also.

What it comes down to is that you end up setting up in 2/2 and making sure your pattern repetitions add up to an even number.

For example, if your drum machine is in 11/4, let it repeat twice and you're good to go. I guess you could also use 3/4 or whatever else, but while your drum machine can change meter without stopping, the Loopstation can't, so 2/2 is the way to go IMO.

It will sync to each single beat once the looper starts it. The looper is the only one that cares about the meter.

gregsgear

If I understand the manuals correctly, most samplers (other than the MPC) seem to deal with the length of a sample in beats, instead of dealing with meters in a traditional musical sense. So...

I guess a sampler pattern in 5/4 would just be a pattern with a length of 5 beats at a given tempo.

Let's assume that the tempo doesn't change in the tune for now, and both devices have the same tempo value.

The RC300 supports 5/4, but I think people are suggesting something like the strategy below, so that you can use "end of loop" stops and change meters for the next looper track if necessary.

Work out even divisions between devices.
RC300 meter = 2/4
Sample pattern = 10 beats long (two repetitions of what sounds like a 5/4 pattern)

5 bars on the RC300 = 2 bars on the sampler

Or, in more typical phrase lengths...
10 bars on the RC300 = 4 bars on the sampler
20 bars on the RC300 = 8 bars on the sampler

If your tune's A Section is 8 bars of 5/4, you can reliably trigger the "end of loop" track change at the end of the A Section. If you change meters then, you have another set of even calculations to map out, but the devices will switch together.

I suppose it's similar with a drum machine, with the benefit that the drum machine will display notation (5/4 an and so on) that's more similar to the looper's notation. The 2/4 on the looper is still more flexible if meter changes are required.

Am I reading that idea correctly?

Thanks a lot everybody. I'm learning a lot.

Greg







- gregsgear

_______________________

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Threeleggedyoyo

Sounds like you understand it, yes.

I think you may be overthinking it just slightly, though (easy to do).

Drum machines don't need the "end of loop" command to make any changes. All they really need is the clock sync and the midi start. After that point they'll chug along for a whole song however they are programmed, blissfully believing that all is a stream of 1/1 notes. Only the looper cares what meter it is in.

So you just need to make sure that the looper is working in multiples of whatever you programmed your drum machine do to.

You can also use a drum machine with the Pattern/Fill capability, such as the SR-16. It is pretty cool because you can set up a single pattern loop that will play on repeat. Then you can hit a single footswitch to activate a fill starting at any point in the loop. If you hold it down, it will go back to the same pattern afterwards. If you just tap it, it will switch to pattern B, which has its own fill that sends you back to A.

It's very good in improvisational situations where you want a bit more control over the commands and such. Not as detailed as a full song, but still pretty great.

gregsgear

True about over-thinking. A lot of this is me looking ahead a few steps. The RC300 will be a looping upgrade for me regardless. Now I also have an idea how people use it with other devices.

I'll try to contribute some ideas back to the group when I have some of this rig in place.

Greg
- gregsgear

_______________________

Guitar, Composition, Jazz and other styles.
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Yamaha AES 1500
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Taylor 410CE
Various pedals
Line6 M9 and M5

Hopkins

I have been messing about with odd time signatures recently and lamenting the fact that you cannot change them on the fly with the RC-300, but actually the 2/4 idea is not a bad idea.  Although would you need to repeat up to four times with odd x/8 time signatures, like 11/8? I'm not sure. 

Another limitation with the 2/4 method is that you would *have* to use the drum machine (unless you want to practise playing on the off-beat for part of the time!), whereas I quite like to use the built in drums (just the high-hat click-like track) when writing purely for convenience.

gregsgear

Right. I was assuming that the RC-300 tracks would be silent.

I also like the idea of having maybe 2 setups – one that's just built-in looper features + guitar, and one that's a mid-size rig with some other devices.

When I play out, I usually have a small space. The small rig seems good for small gigs and sketching ideas, and the guitar practice scenario that you mentioned.

Greg
- gregsgear

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Hopkins

Yes, you don't even need to have the rhythm on, although I still find it useful for a quiet count-in.  (Annoyingly, the START message is only sent by the RC-300 when you being recording, making the count in useless unless you use the built in rhythm!)

Threeleggedyoyo

#14
Quote from: Hopkins on February 14, 2013, 10:26:13 AM
Yes, you don't even need to have the rhythm on, although I still find it useful for a quiet count-in.  (Annoyingly, the START message is only sent by the RC-300 when you being recording, making the count in useless unless you use the built in rhythm!)

Wouldn't that mean you COULD use the count in since it won't send the start during the count in?

One alternative that might suit you (if I understand your issue right) is to use the fact that the RC-300 drum machine will automatically start whenever you tap tempo.

BUT you can also set the volume to drop to zero as soon as you hit Record on Track 1. So there's some count-in action.

Or were you WANTING the start message to come before the recording? You could always do a blank track or dial back the volume while you stand by on overdub.

Too bad they got rid of the drum start/stop assignment. But toggling volume is just as good imo.

ANYWAY, back to the original question...

Simulated "Hybrid" mode is harder than I thought.

Turns out Rec/Overdub doesn't work the way I thought it does. It only sends a command on the FIRST Rec or Overdub after arriving on a track. Also, Momentary and Toggle give it a different personality, since one will actually make the corresponding STOP send the signal as well (the track is no longer momentarily ON). Dizzying.

Long and the short of it is that for the original idea, the best way I've found is to just be in Multi mode and have tracks end on Loop end. So you can have Track 1 playing, Turn on Track 2, and when you want it to shut off, hit Track 2's stop and then hit Track 3's right on the downbeat (or have them synced so starting early is no big deal).

A little extra footwork, but I'm coming from the RC-50 where Multi mode was always at least a couple taps anyway.

It's a shame, by the way, that there isn't a "Loop Start" function like there is for "Loop End." Something that would let you quantize the start of tracks like you can in Single mode. It would help a lot with this whole Hybrid thing.

Hopefully all that made sense greg... feel free to ask for clarification.

MangoRob

Quote from: Hopkins on February 12, 2013, 03:57:56 PM
I'll check this also when I get home at the end of the week.  I seem to remember playing around trying to simulate the Rang's hybrid mode and it *might* be possible to do this just with assigns overloading the buttons on the unit...  I cannot quite remember.  According to the note I made in the Feature Requests "Additional Play Modes" section, it is possible with a single external switch, after recording the tracks 2 and 3 normally.

it is possible with a single external switch, after recording the tracks 2 and 3 normally.

im guessing the only way would be to sync with a midi beatbuddy type thing and have 1/2/3/ all in serial sync to it! , but some of us actually like making our own BEATS on the spot it!
cos it adds to the making live music experience and not using some canned beatbuddy machine sounds,

. its a real shame such a simple tweak would bring teh rc300 in contention with teh looperboard automatically