First few hours... Minimal Install; VSTs; FTP/GK3 side-by-side

Started by shawnb-fgn, April 16, 2013, 11:39:47 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

shawnb-fgn

I was able to successfully install the FTP controller software by itself.  It did not force me to install any NI or IK software.  Once the controller was paired and connected, the firmware update was applied.  I had a fully-functional FTP in about 5 minutes of installation & configuration.   

I've been playing & learning a lot within my DAW (SONAR X2)!  Tomorrow I'll start to load NI & IK software. 

Hosting VSTs within the FTP App
Of course, there were no NI or IK patches to use within FTP.  So, using the FTP application, I scanned my existing VST folders for VSTs.   Most of my existing VSTs were either bundled within SONAR X2 Producer Edition or were purchased from Cakewalk (SONAR's manufacturer), when they were on sale within another bundle.   Trying to use these VSTs within the FTP app, I learned a few lessons:
  • The FTP software will not load 64-bit VSTs, it only loads 32-bit VSTs.  This is true for Cakewalk & non-Cakewalk VSTs.
  • Some 32-bit VSTs that were bundled with SONAR will ONLY work within SONAR.  They tell you so when you try to use them within FTP...
  • Of the VSTs that load with no warnings, FTP creates its own window with FTP parameters as well as the VST's UI.  Two apps within one window...  I'm able to load voices and get them to partially work, however, the VST's GUI does not fully work.  (I suspect this is simply because FTP cannot find all of the Cakewalk binaries; this can likely be fixed with a little more work...)
  • EDIT...  The 32-bit VSTs for Cakewalk Sound Center, Square I, and Beatscape appear to work perfectly within the FTP app.

So...  I've gotten very few VSTs to host properly within the FTP app.  This is partly due to some FTP limitations, and partly due to Cakewalk hobbling their bundled/discounted VSTs.

HOWEVER!!!  Everything works quite well within my DAW!  I can choose the FTP as a midi input device for a soft-synth track, and it works BEAUTIFULLY!   I'm still learning how to get the FTP's configs to work exactly as I want them to; I'm still learning about their various mono vs poly modes. 

GK3 & FTP side-by-side
I installed a GK3 and an FTP on a guitar side-by-side, a few mm apart.   Thus far, neither has appeared to affect the other in any way.  (I had installed the GK3 first, tested it, then installed the FTP.)  This is still early, however, using headphones in my home.  I have not played at volume thru a PA. 

I can play a passage, and record both the GR-55's output and the FTP's output side-by-side from the same performance.   More on that later! 

Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

Zummooz-fgn

DAWs the plug-in have been tested with ....
Though this TriplePlay plug-in may work with a lot of different DAWs, the following are the ones that Heynow has tested for the alpha release:
Logic v9.1.7
GarageBand
Studio One
Ableton Live

shawnb ... may-be something / bug in Sonar, also what computer you using ? 
Q... What kind of advice can you give me ?   Tommy Emmanuel's reply ....

You move your hand Up and Down that long bit and the music comes out of that Big Black Box behind you !!

shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  Zummooz on April 17, 2013, 01:22:07 AM
shawnb ... may-be something / bug in Sonar, also what computer you using ?

SONAR works perfectly with the FTP as input thus far.   The issues above are the other way around - trying to use Cakewalk VSTs within the FTP host app.   

I'm going to download a couple non-Cakewalk VSTs.   It occured to me this morning that it's possible that ALL of the limitations I encountered above are due to Cakewalk "hobbling" their bundled VSTs.  I'll update in a bit when done.

*** Some updates have been made above ***

These tests were on a Dell XPS 8100, i7, 8GB RAM.   Win7, 64-bit.   
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

Elantric-fgn

QuoteGK3 & FTP side-by-side
I installed a GK3 and an FTP on a guitar side-by-side, a few mm apart.   Thus far, neither has appeared to affect the other in any way.  (I had installed the GK3 first, tested it, then installed the FTP.)  This is still early, however, using headphones in my home.  I have not played at volume thru a PA.

I can play a passage, and record both the GR-55's output and the FTP's output side-by-side from the same performance.   More on that later! 

Post a pic when you can?
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

shawnb-fgn

Some new lessons...   

Why Would You Want to Host the FTP App as a VST in your DAW?

I wondered myself, and now I think I get it...   It all boils down to the difference between the controller on its own vs. the controller with the FTP software.  The controller on its own spits out MIDI data, including notes & velocities.

Great...  But what if you wanted to have different velocity curves per different voices?   One size does not fit all.  For example, on the GR-55, you can set VELOCITY DYNAMICS and PLAY FEEL at the SYSTEM level, but you can ALSO fine tune this at the PATCH level using parameters like LEVEL VELOCITY SENSE, LEGATO and VELOCITY CURVE TYPE.   

The FTP app on your PC/Mac provides this additional "patch level" processing for you, including setting mono/poly mode, different velocity curves, sensitivities, and (what I'm pretty sure is) a couple flavors of legato processing.  You do this by pairing some FTP parameters with each synth voice.  It allows you to save these configurations on your PC for future use. 

If you want this additional "patch level" processing done when you are using the FTP within your DAW, you need to load the FTP app as a VST.   This way, it can do the velocity processing described above as it feeds the VST instrument. 

Hosting the FTP app as a VST within SONAR (or other DAW)

Once I added the TriplePlay folder to SONAR's list of VST folders and did a re-scan for VSTs, TriplePlay showed up as a VST within SONAR.  Once I did so, things got much better using SONAR's 32-bit plugins.  A couple of lessons here:
  • Oddly, the SONAR plugins that wouldn't work in the FTP app, that gave an "only for use within SONAR" message, still did so.  Even though they were within SONAR.  Actually, they are executing within the FTP app within SONAR...   So unfortunately, I could not get some VSTs to work in this mode, including True Piano.
  • Above, I noted that the GUIs for several of Cakewalks VSTs didn't work properly when hosted by the FTP app.   ALL OF THESE WORK PERFECTLY when hosted by the FTP app within SONAR.  The additional "patch level" FTP processing options appear alongside the VSTi when it is opened.

Bottom line is that you have two three main options using FTP within your DAW:
  • Option 1: You can host the FTP app as a VST within your DAW.  This, in turn, invokes your other 32-bit VSTi's.  In this mode, you get the full value of the FTP app, including it's "patch level" additional processing.
  • Option 2: You can simply use the FTP controller as a MIDI input source.  This gets around ALL limitations listed above, namely, you can feed 64-bit VSTs and within SONAR you can of course use the "SONAR only" VSTs, as they are running in SONAR.  What you lose in this mode is the additional "patch level" processing.   There are two FTP modes for doing this.  In "Normal" mode, all these notes share the same channel, and the FTP operates in Chromatic mode.  No wheel events are sent.  In "Hardware" mode (power up the controller holding the D-pad UP button), the strings have discreet channels and the FTP is no longer in Chromatic mode - wheel events are sent.   FTP's "hardware" mode corresponds to Roland's "Mono" mode, and is clearly preferred for this type of processing.
  • EDIT:Option 3: You can run your VST as normal (not inside the TP VST) just as you did in option 2 above, and then on another track use the TP VST to set up the Controller. To do this you can load the "Hardware Synth" patch in the TP VST - this does not load any VST's but does allow you to change all the parameters in the Controller.  This "two track" option provides full support for your 64-bit VSTi's and even any proprietary VSTi's like I have in SONAR. (Thank you, Costas!)

Bugs???
  • Synth2 - Synth4 don't work at all within the FTP app.  I had earlier thought that a bunch of VSTs didn't work, but it turns out they work fine under Synth1.  (I believe Elantric pointed out this bug elsewhere & noted that the Fishman folks are working on it???)
  • EDIT: On occasion the controller seems to go haywire and spits out gazillions of MIDI Control messages.  This usually stops once ANY other message is sent, e.g., a note.  There is no impact on performance.  You would never notice this unless you were recording MIDI automation - OR - monitoring the stream via a tool like MIDI OX.  (I now believe this was the normal communication between the controller and the FTP app.)

I'm still learning this thing...   As I learn more, I'll share.   
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  Elantric on April 17, 2013, 09:15:18 AM
Post a pic when you can?

Only if you promise you won't say "YIKES!" or something like that!   

It's all held together with the 3M foam mounting tape at the moment.  This helps me rearrange things at will.   

Both PUs are working beautifully.  The FTP works great - despite being further away from the bridge.  I bet it would work even better if I reversed the positions of the two pickups. 

Even as-is, though... there is ABSOLUTELY NO comparison between the GK3/GR55 and the FTP/VST in terms of performance, playability & ghosted notes.  When I record the two side-by-side, it's almost laughable.   

I've been surprised, though, how much I like the GR-55's timbres when doing side-by-side piano tests, especially when comparing my GR-55 piano patch with True Pianos within SONAR.  If only it tracked more cleanly. 

But I haven't even loaded NI & IK software yet.  I'm about to shortly. 

In the meanwhile - here's a picture of the Borg invasion:
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

shawnb-fgn

Fishman support confirmed the lack of 64-bit vst vspport.    Probable future upgrade.

I have reported the other two "bugs" listed above as well.   No response yet on those.   

So far, for me, this has been very smooth and everything seems to be working very well thus far.
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

jassy-fgn

Thanks shawnb its one of the most helpful and informative posts that I have encountered about the "in use" of the FTP.

cc-fgn

Quote from:  shawnb on April 17, 2013, 10:31:50 AM
Bottom line is that you have two main options using FTP within your DAW:
  • You can host the FTP app as a VST within your DAW.  This, in turn, invokes your other 32-bit VSTi's.  In this mode, you get the full value of the FTP app, including it's "patch level" additional processing.
  • You can simply use the FTP controller as a MIDI input source.  This gets around ALL limitations listed above, namely, you can feed 64-bit VSTs and within SONAR you can of course use the "SONAR only" VSTs, as they are running in SONAR.  What you lose in this mode is the additional "patch level" processing.   There are two FTP modes for doing this.  In "Normal" mode, all these notes share the same channel, and the FTP operates in Chromatic mode.  No wheel events are sent.  In "Hardware" mode (power up the controller holding the D-pad UP button), the strings have discreet channels and the FTP is no longer in Chromatic mode - wheel events are sent.   FTP's "hardware" mode corresponds to Roland's "Mono" mode, and is clearly preferred for this type of processing.

There is a third option: run your VST as normal (not inside the TP VST) just as you did in option 2 above, and then on another track use the TP VST to set up the Controller. To do this you can load the "Hardware Synth" patch in the TP VST - this does not load any VST's but does allow you to change all the parameters in the Controller.

This is the best solution we could come up with for plugins that are tied to a DAW like the ones that come with SONAR.

cheers,
Costas

shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  cc on April 18, 2013, 10:40:46 AM
There is a third option: run your VST as normal (not inside the TP VST) just as you did in option 2 above, and then on another track use the TP VST to set up the Controller. To do this you can load the "Hardware Synth" patch in the TP VST - this does not load any VST's but does allow you to change all the parameters in the Controller.

This is the best solution we could come up with for plugins that are tied to a DAW like the ones that come with SONAR.

cheers,
Costas

AWESOME!!!   Thanks.  Hey, you must be the oft-quoted Costas!   Nice to meet you!     

Sounds like that gives full FTP support (including the "patch level" support provided by the FTP app) for the SONAR proprietary.   

Sounds like this would work for 64-bit VSTs as well.  I think I'll try both & report back.   

Shawn
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

Elantric-fgn

Welcome Costas to FutureGuitarNow!

Very happy you cleared up  / confirmed Shawns early FTP efforts

QuoteSounds like this would work for 64-bit VSTs as well.  I think I'll try both & report back.   

Shawn, good work  - look forward to your results.

Myself - I have only installed FTP on one machine - my 2011 iMac 27" with OSX 10.7.5 Lion.

Look forward to installing my Retail purchased FTP on my Lenovo W720 Win7 laptop next week, so these guides  / info (thanks to Shawn!) will be handy!
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

shawnb-fgn

Well, within SONAR, I couldn't get this approach to work.  I'm sure it works great in other DAWs.  SONAR, more than most, tries hard to segregate its Audio & MIDI. 

If I could load FTP as a MIDI plugin, I'd be golden I'm sure.  But it's registered as an audio plugin.  Still, some audio plugins generate MIDI output, so there is an option to enable MIDI output from an audio track.   But you cannot select this option for the FTP plugins.  (This may be due to an incorrect generateEvents registry entry???)

So I couldn't get either the SONAR-locked VSTs or 64-bit VSTs to work within SONAR using the FTP app.     

However, within SONAR, all of my 32-bit, non-locked VSTs work great!   Including years' of accumulated Cakewalk products and the new bundled IK and NI products. 

Again, I'm sure this two-track technique would work in other DAWs.   

If anyone has specific steps or suggestions, I'm game!   
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

cc-fgn

Nice to meet you all!

Quote from:  shawnb on April 18, 2013, 10:15:45 PM
Well, within SONAR, I couldn't get this approach to work.  I'm sure it works great in other DAWs.  SONAR, more than most, tries hard to segregate its Audio & MIDI. 

If I could load FTP as a MIDI plugin, I'd be golden I'm sure.  But it's registered as an audio plugin.  Still, some audio plugins generate MIDI output, so there is an option to enable MIDI output from an audio track.   But you cannot select this option for the FTP plugins.  (This may be due to an incorrect generateEvents registry entry???)

You do not have to load FTP as a MIDI plugin. Just load it as an instrument and it will connect to the TP receiver by itself. One possible problem you might see on Windows is that MIDI ports can only be connected to one thing at a time. This is why the TP  receiver has two MIDI ports ("TP Guitar" and "TP Control"), you should set up your DAW to use "TP Guitar" and leave "TP Control" free for the TP VST to use.

shawnb-fgn

Wow, thanks for the response, it's appreciated!

I tried a BUNCH of variants in SONAR.  As an effect and as an instrument in separate audio tracks, and as an effect and as an instrument in the target VST's track, and as an effect and as an instrument within an 'instrument' track (in which SONAR kinda blends Audio & MIDI processing).  I tried using NO SOUND in FTP and HARDWARE SYNTHS in FTP, thinking that maybe FTP was producing audio and this was somehow confusing SONAR. 

(BTW, what is NO SOUND supposed to be used for?  Couldn't find it doc'd anywhere...  My guess is that it is to be used for instances just like this, in which you ONLY want the MIDI output...)

The FIRST challenge, I think is an FTP issue.  SONAR has a feature you can use on audio tracks called "Enable MIDI Output".  This works on any MIDI-producing VSTi.  It does not work for FTP.  There is a trick known in the SONAR communities when we want to get this to work, and this is to change a registry entry for the VST, entitled generateEvents, to TRUE (1).  If I changed the entry, SONAR understood that FTP produced MIDI output, and I could route it & pipe it properly.  But only after I changed it myself.  I think the FTP installer/app should set this registry entry so apps would know that FTP can generate MIDI output.  This is a bare minimum requirement to get your 2nd-track approach to work within SONAR. 

The SECOND challenge, I think is a SONAR issue, at least with the SONAR instrument I used yesterday.  At times, if I recorded the output, I could see that the FTP MIDI was getting there!  But it was recorded as MIDI, not audio...  Very confusing...  At other times the VSTi reacted as if there were audio processing going on (gauges, etc).   But it never actually produced sound in Cakewalk.  (And yes, of course, it did whenever I routed a simple MIDI input, such as a keyboard or the FTP midi driver.) 

I'm going to experiment a little more today using different instruments.  I only used Cakewalk Sound Center yesterday - mainly because it works fully in every other mode (hosted by FTP standalone and hosted within FTP within SONAR), so I figured it was the most open. 

This is not crippling - I actually find the simple MIDI input in HW mode to be very nice, actually, FOR ALL VSTs.  Most anything else I want to do can be done within the synths.   But it would sure be nice if we could confirm FULL FTP functionality for ALL VSTs within SONAR.  Even though SONAR is a pain to work with. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

cc-fgn

The TP VST does not have a MIDI out to the DAW, so the plugin does not need MIDI out enabled. The TP VST connects to the TP receiver directly without going through the DAW. So, I'm not sure what the problem could be. What does the message under the sensitivity meters say? Receiver not found?

("No Sound" is just a blank patch that loads when the plugin is first loaded to avoid the delays you would have if we loaded one of the real patches that have to load their own plugins)




shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  cc on April 21, 2013, 01:38:07 PMThe TP VST does not have a MIDI out to the DAW, so the plugin does not need MIDI out enabled. The TP VST connects to the TP receiver directly without going through the DAW. So, I'm not sure what the problem could be. What does the message under the sensitivity meters say? Receiver not found?
I'm not talking about the path from the TP receiver to the FTP VSTI.   The third option, the "two track" method you suggested above, requires that we somehow feed MIDI controller data to a VSTi WITHIN SONAR.  We're doing this to find a way to support VSTis that are otherwise not supported by FTP.  So you load up one track with your target VSTi (like True Pianos), and another track with your FTP VSTi.  Great, but what signal do you want to feed True Pianos from FTP?  The MIDI data stream (specifically, the MIDI data stream that has been enhanced by the FTP VST).  SONAR won't let you do that unless the FTP VST has MIDI output enabled. 

Within SONAR, there is a pretty solid brick wall between MIDI and audio...   Without MIDI output enabled, SONAR thinks the FTP VSTi an audio processor only, and won't let you feed its output as input into a VSTi (like True Piano) that is expecting a keyboard controller.  In SONAR-think, this is like trying to plug a 1/4" jack into a 5-pin MIDI recepticle.   

Maybe I've been working in SONAR too long, but it kinda makes sense to me.  So I suspect SONAR may not be the only DAW with this requirement.  So I do think you need MIDI output enabled.  I would suggest this is enabled conditionally, e.g., only when HARDWARE SYNTH has been selected, because that is the instance you are feeding a MIDI data stream from the FTP VSTi. 

Hope this makes sense...  Or have I completely misunderstood your third option?

Quote from:  cc on April 21, 2013, 01:38:07 PM("No Sound" is just a blank patch that loads when the plugin is first loaded to avoid the delays you would have if we loaded one of the real patches that have to load their own plugins)

Thanks!  I thought it might have some other connotation/purpose...   

Again, thanks for all the help.  I'm sure you have your hands full these days. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

cc-fgn

Quote from:  shawnb on April 21, 2013, 09:58:06 PM
I'm not talking about the path from the TP receiver to the FTP VSTI.   The third option, the "two track" method you suggested above, requires that we somehow feed MIDI controller data to a VSTi WITHIN SONAR.  We're doing this to find a way to support VSTis that are otherwise not supported by FTP.  So you load up one track with your target VSTi (like True Pianos), and another track with your FTP VSTi.  Great, but what signal do you want to feed True Pianos from FTP?  The MIDI data stream (specifically, the MIDI data stream that has been enhanced by the FTP VST).  SONAR won't let you do that unless the FTP VST has MIDI output enabled. 

Ah, I see where the confusion is! I have been working on this for so long, it's hard for me to know which bits are not obvious!

I understand what you are trying to do, but in order to do this you do not have to pass the MIDI through the TP VST.

What happens is that you run the TP VST and make your settings, the TP VST makes these settings in the Controller, and then the Controller sends all subsequent MIDI based on the settings you made. So you can just route the MIDI from the Receiver straight into your target VST and the MIDI will have whatever settings you made (eg mono / poly, trigger, pitchbend...).

Does that make sense?

shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  cc on April 22, 2013, 01:42:59 AM
Does that make sense?

Absolutely!  So you always just use the "normal" midi input port!

I think my last question for now - with the FTP software set to "Hardware Synth" as described in this thread, how do you route the MIDI output to an external hardware synth?   Using your DAW or MIDIOX to route the Fishman MIDI stream to an output port? 

Thanx!!!
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

cc-fgn

Quote from:  shawnb on April 22, 2013, 06:28:46 AM
I think my last question for now - with the FTP software set to "Hardware Synth" as described in this thread, how do you route the MIDI output to an external hardware synth?   Using your DAW or MIDIOX to route the Fishman MIDI stream to an output port? 

Yes, just use the DAW or MIDIOX to route the normal TP MIDI port out to your external hardware synth.

shawnb-fgn

I'm having a "Toto, we've been in Kansas all along!" moment. 

Following this "Option #3", I have access to ALL of my VSTi's - even 64-bit, and even the SONAR proprietary ones!   AND I get the full support of the FTP app, including the enhanced pitchwheel processing, sensitivity and dynamics settings the FTP app provides. 

My confusion is that I thought the FTP app actually performed the processing and passed it on; this is not the case, the app configures the controller, and changes the behavior of the controller itself. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

cc-fgn


szilard-fgn

Just thought I'd confirm that FTP seems to be working fine in Sonar X2 64 bit when using the usb driver. I'm still working on a temporary install on an old USA BC Rich ST III and am just figuring out the SW config. I tried stand alone versions of Rapture x64, Dimension Pro x64, and Z3TA+ 2 x64 and they all worked. I also tried Omnisphere & Alchemy with Sonar X2 64 and they're working.

I did a fairly minimal install - FTP SW, Progression, and Studio One 2. Normally I don't install the 32 bit version of VSTs so I can't do much with the FTP SW although I did have a 32 bit version of Reaktor.

I think I'm going to like this wireless setup. It'll be nice to be able grab my guitar and FTP usb device and switch between DAW and loptop ...

shawnb-fgn

Update to this thread:

Fishman has acknowledged a bug, that makes Kontakt appear to hang when run within the FTP VST within SONAR (and likely other DAWs):

It's easy to make Kontakt appear to hang, by loading voices, changing your mind & loading other voices.  The "Replace Multi (pressing "No" will merge in the new instruments)?" prompt gets stuck behind the Kontakt window.  Since the Kontakt window has no minimize button, it's impossible to get to the prompt to continue loading the voice.  You may not even realize it's there; how would you?  It appears to hang.  So you go into Task Manager & kill Kontakt.   THAT's when things go very wrong, actually, is when you use TM to kill Kontakt.  Once you do that, your DAW and possibly even your audio interface hang hard.  I need to reboot to recover.

This only fails when loading Kontakt 5 into the FTP VST within your DAW.  No problem when loading Kontakt 5 as an instrument in a track, and no problem loading Kontakt within the FTP app (outside of your DAW).

To work around this:  If you experience this, do not kill Kontakt within Task Manager.   Instead, go into Task Manager, right click on Kontakt and choose MINIMIZE.  You may need to do the same thing to the Fishman TriplePlay app as well.   Once you've done this you can respond to the "Replace Multi" prompt.

In hindsight, these Kontakt "hangs" may be the reason I had a lot of issues when I first used FTP within SONAR. 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp

Germanicus-fgn

ShawnB,

When this happens, also try just hitting the "enter" key. I've had this happen before. If you just hit Enter after drag-loading an instrument in Kontakt (without mouse clicking elsewhere), it will clear the question box and proceed to load.
Roland VG99
Pod HD500
JTV69, Variax 600 and 700 Acoustic
Traynor k4

www.steamtheory.com

shawnb-fgn

Quote from:  Germanicus on May 09, 2013, 11:25:51 AM
ShawnB,

When this happens, also try just hitting the "enter" key. I've had this happen before. If you just hit Enter after drag-loading an instrument in Kontakt (without mouse clicking elsewhere), it will clear the question box and proceed to load.

Thanks, I'll try that!!! 
Dogmatic attachment to the supposed merits of a particular structure hinders the search for an appropriate structure.
- Fripp