Database of Performance Results with FTP

[scratch17-fgn]

With FTP almost due to arrive, I propose we start a thread dedicated to creating an informal database of performance results. I also have a few tips for those with setup questions.

I suggest that members who get the FTP report their results here, including the following data:

1. Computer Used - Processor, Ram, Hard / Hybrid or Solid State Drive(s)
2. Audio Interface Used - Sample Rate, Bit Rate, and Buffer Settings
3. Software Setup - Are you using additional music software (DAW, GTAK, etc.) with the FTP application? What virtual instrument(s) have you tried? Which operating system are you running?
4. Are you using a drive for your OS and apps, and a different drive to hold your samples? If you're using a DAW, are the project and media files being written to a second drive? Are your drives internal, external, or both? What connection type (USB, FW, Thunderbolt) are you using with external drives?
5. Have you tried FTP with a hardware synth? What hardware (iConnect, etc.) are you using to connect FTP's USB to your synth's MIDI input? Are the results better, the same, or worse with a hardware synth versus a virtual synth.
6. Are the results from a live or a studio gig? Do you have any tips you've found that works well in one setting but not so well in the other?
7. What guitar(s) are you using with FTP? Were there any mounting issues? Are the pickup's pole pieces situated directly under each string? Or are there some pole pieces that are off to one side or another? If so have you got problems with a specific string? Did the included FTP software deal with the issue?

I am not necessarily talking about getting latency measurements. If you're able to get these measurements, that will be great. However, I am willing to live with data based on subjective impressions from forum members. Even subjectively based impressions could create a baseline for minimum computer hardware configurations.

Considering the questions I've seen here (and on the V-Guitar Forums), I really think such information would be helpful. I also believe that it is important to realize that it is not necessary to own a laptop to use FTP. In fact, use of a desktop computer might actually be a better idea, even if FTP is to be used in a live gig.

First, right out of the box, most desktop computers have better motherboards and faster hard drives than comparably priced laptops. Second, a small form factor desktop with a cheap display is probably less of a target for thieves. Third, it is easier to upgrade the hardware on a desktop computer. Fourth, at a gig, you want to plug the computer into AC mains, rather than rely on battery power. That negates one of the big portability advantages of a laptop. Yes, you can plug a laptop into AC power at a gig, but my MacBook Pro's power cord costs $69 to replace. An EIC power cord costs $5. Which would you prefer to replace? Of course, if extreme portability is your thing, only a laptop  (or maybe an iPad) may suffice for your needs.

There's another issue I think that needs to be addressed. I believe that the outputs from your guitar's pickups and the FTP should be viewed as separate instruments, requiring separate systems for optimal output. Let me suggest an analogy that I think will explain why I take this position.

I have a Hamer Duotone. It is a marvelous dual voice guitar with Seymour Duncan magnetic pickups and a piezo saddle equipped bridge. 

If I play live, (which almost never happens any more), I use my Mesa Recording Recto Preamp and 20/20 amp combination for output from my guitar's magnetic pickups. I use a Marshall AS-80R (AS stands for Acoustic Specialist) for the piezo voice. Like it or not, I must use two guitar cables, going to two different amps. Even if I was to go to a direct box and into an input on a PA system, I'd still have to use two systems to get the best sound out of the two voices built into my guitar. 

I choose my set up as if I were only playing one voice at a time. It complicates things, but I get the best sound from both voices this way. 

The situation I describe above is analogous to doing a live gig with an FTP and the regular voice of your guitar. I suggest you choose your set up as if you were only playing one voice at a time. You may have to control both systems' levels separately, but the extra hassle will be worth it when it comes to sound quality. If you can't deal with the hassle, don't try to play both voices at the same time.

Use the best amp you have for your magnetic pickups. Use the cleanest amp (or your PA system) you can get for the FTP. I cannot stress the importance of using the cleanest amp possible with the FTP. If you want a demonstration, try outputting a synth sound from your computer into an amp made for guitar. Now switch the output to a decent stereo system or a pair of studio monitors.

Of course, in a studio setting, I suggest you use the studio monitors to listen to the FTP output. You'll get the best sound that way, period. Balancing guitar voice(s) with the FTP output can be done on a song by song, or even phrase by phrase basis.

So I'll start this off with a description of my own setup.

I will be trying out FTP on two computers.

I have a Macbook Pro. It has a Core i7 quad core processor @ 2 Ghz with 8 GB Ram, 750 GB Seagate Momentus Hybrid drive. The Momentus drive has an SSD combined with a 7200 RPM hard drive.

I may also try the MBP with a 64 GB SATA II Kingston SSD, just to see what performance increase I might get. Frankly, I think the SSD might be put to better use as a container for Kontakt sample libraries, or for writing DAW project and media files to, as opposed to running the OS and FTP application. I'll probably test both configurations.

I will also try FTP on my iMac. It has a core i7 quad core @ 3.4 Ghz, with 32 GB Ram, and the stock internal Apple 7200 RPM drive. 

Both computers are running the latest build of OSX Mountain Lion on their internal drives.

For audio output, I will use a MOTU Traveler audio interface, and for comparison, the built-in audio on both computers.

I have Logic Pro 9 (V 9.1.8 ), Reason 5,  Komplete 8 (with over a TB of additional content), The Arturia V Collection (version 3), The Korg Legacy Collection (Analog and Digital), and a whole boatload of other virtual instruments and effects. All of the apps are on the internal hard drives, on the same partitions as the OS. However, with the exception of Logic, all of my content is on a separate external Seagate 1.5 TB USB 2.0 drive. I haven't seen the drive's RPM spec, but I'd bet it's no faster than 5400 RPM.

I don't yet own GTAK, but I will try the demo and buy it if I like it.

One of the more interesting effects I own is the Melodyne Editor plug-in. I intend to compare the pitch to MIDI results of this program to the output of the FTP. For studio purposes, having two ways to get MIDI conversion of the audio data from my guitar has some advantages. If I have a glitch on the FTP's set of MIDI data, I may be able to simply cut and paste the correct data from the Melodyne MIDI conversion track over the bad data. That will be faster than having to manually correct glitches.

I don't plan on playing live with FTP, so that part of the data will need to come from other members.

I described my electric guitar, a Hamer Duotone, above. I also plan to try FTP on my Taylor 710-BCE acoustic guitar. I've seen no reports that FTP won't work with acoustic steel string guitars, so the result should be interesting.

I don't have any hardware synths, but I have access to a few. If I don't get the results I want with virtual synths (which would be disappointing), I'll try the hardware synths.

I have waited years for a pitch to MIDI solution for guitar that works. My keyboard chops are non-existent. I've tried (and owned) many pitch to MIDI devices, with very disappointing results. When I first saw video of FTP on the web, I was encouraged, but I'm still skeptical. I've tried not to get my hopes up too high, as I've seen impressive video before.

I'll report my results here. I am expecting the FTP in about 3 weeks.

Steven.

[Brent Flash-fgn]

Welcome to the group scratch17! 

[guitarno-fgn]

   Yes, finally only a couple of weeks left to wait for the FTP. I think this thread for FTP performance results is a great idea. It will be very interesting to compare notes & see results others are getting. I hope they will prove to be predominately positive! Hopefully the "impressive videos" you've mentioned will turn out to be in-line with the real world performance that we will experience ourselves.

   I'm sure that the setup and adjustment of the pickup will be critical to getting good performance. I only hope that I will be able to mount the FTP successfully on the guitars I own. I am also interested to see if mounting the FTP on an acoustic guitar will turn out to be practical.

[windy]

I have an FTP included in a custom guitar that should be in my hands in May or June. The guitar is a custom fretless Blackbird Super OM carbon fiber guitar. I am moving overseas and have paired down my possessions. As such I will likely use an iPad with the FTP, hooked up to whatever amp I can get my hands on/borrow for the rest of my time in the states. I will report here with fretless FTP results when I get the guitar.

[scratch17-fgn]

Thanks for the welcome Brent. I've been on the V-Guitar forum for years, and have read many of the posts by others on this forum.

I suppose I should provide a little description of my history with guitar pitch to MIDI equipment.

I've previously owned a Roland GM-70, a GR-1, and Axon Ax-100Mk2 pitch to MIDI converters. None were satisfactory in my opinion. I have also owned a ZTAR controller, which I found was so far removed from guitar that I was inspired not to play. The only 'guitar synth' that I've ever owned that responds to my playing is my Roland VG-8, with its HRM sounds.

I should have included a question as to how you are using FTP, in my last post. For example, are you using FTP as a way to be a "one man band"? Are you using FTP to record music? That is, as a technical tool so you can record other instruments in a recording you've already conceived? Are you using FTP to inspire you to create new music? Will you use FTP primarily as a scoring tool?

I have an in-studio use for the FTP that I doubt others had thought of. It will take a bit of explaining.

I must start by explaining one of the techniques I've tried with non-standard guitar voicing. Otherwise it won't make sense as to how I plan to use the FTP.

I have always conceived of my guitar's strings as six separate instruments that happen to be laid out in a parallel grid. In the studio, I have the luxury of being able to process each string's voice individually, because I don't have to do the processing in real time.

I've experimented with processing sounds from each individual guitar string with my RMC Fanout Box. I send a direct feed of each string's output to an individual track in Logic. Once I've got 6 audio tracks into my DAW, I can get creative.

Here's an example of a setup I might use. This describes how I might process one string. I try to do logical  groupings of strings with the same type of processing.

I always start the same way. I lay down six tracks direct from my Axon hex pickup through the Fanout Box and into Logic. The audio quality with the direct and unprocessed sound is unusable at this point. But it gives me a basic audio track that I can use to create the sound I want.

At this point I apply modeling. I can use a model from programs, such as Amplitube or Guitar Rig, or I can use the models on my VG-8.

To use a VG-8 model, I send the output of a single track recording of one string back through the Fanout Box and back into the VG-8.

I turn off all modeling in the VG-8 except for a bass or guitar model I like.

Specifically, I might use the low E string with a bass model. I send the output from the VG-8 to my EZ Bus mixer. I split the output, sending one feed back into Logic, onto a new track. The second feed goes to an Acurus A-150 stereo power amp, which powers two open back 10 inch Mesa cabs I have. I mic the cabs and send the nice clean bass guitar sound back to Logic on another new track. On the split feed that went directly to Logic, I apply modeling from Amplitube or Guitar Rig, etc. to get a second bass voice for the E string.

Depending on the effect I'm trying to achieve, I might leave the tracks in their slightly out-of-synch timing, and just align the tracks so the start times of all the tracks line up. Without delay compensation, you can create a nice doubling effect. Or, I might use delay compensation and create one really fat bass track for the low E string.

So where does FTP come in? I want to use FTP to create an audio track that has a non-guitar voice (sampled or synth sound) to drive a VG-8 voice. I'll set up FTP to record MIDI events on six separate instrument tracks in Logic, one for each string.

Again, as an example, I'd assign a virtual instrument (synth or sampled) to the track generated by a string. Then I'll send that track back into the VG-8 as I did above, and process it with a VG-8 synth (HRM) model.

I've tried this with synth sounds generated from my keyboard controller, and it gives some pretty amazing results. I want the FTP though, because I am a guitarist, not a keyboard player.

Here's another possibility. I might generate another track or two an octave higher than the original string's virtual instrument track. FTP has a transposition function in its software application. Say I do that for the high E and B strings.

I would use the standard voice of my guitar's magnetic pickups and mix it with the generated synth sounds.
This would effectively create an 8 string guitar, with a standard 6 string guitar voice overlaid by two synth voices an octave higher, on the top two strings.

Or I could do the reverse.

I would record a base line track using FTP. To keep it simple, I'd use a single virtual instrument voice for all strings.

Then to create the guitar voices of the E and B strings an octave higher, I would use Melodyne's Single Track plug-in. Its Dynamic Note Access lets you grab individual notes from chords and re-pitch them to create harmonies.

In this example, I'd grab the notes generated by my guitar's E and B strings, from the regular guitar output. Next,  I'd copy them to a new track in synch with the FTP tracks. Then I'd re-pitch the track an octave higher. Again, I might have to use delay compensation to realign the synth track generated by FTP with the guitar track.

So now I would have a hybrid 6+2 voice instrument. It could for example have 6 organ voices, with the top two voices layered with guitar at an octave higher pitch.

I'm pumped about the creative possibilities I could get by using different combinations of FTP voices, added to six separate modeled voices from my guitar's strings. The possibilities are limited only by your imagination, assuming that FTP delivers it's promise of mostly glitch-free pitch to MIDI conversion.

I plan to try these techniques out on a surround sound DVD-Audio disc of some cover tunes. The recording will be surround sound only. No stereo tracks. I do not expect the project to be a commercial one. I just want to prototype my techniques and get reactions from some of my audiophile and musician friends. The first tune will be a cover of Led Zeppelin's The Rain Song. If the project results are really positive, I might make the DVD Audio ISO available.

I also hope to eventually use these techniques on some original tunes.

Steven.

[shawnb-fgn]

With FTP almost due to arrive, I propose we start a thread dedicated to creating an informal database of performance results. I also have a few tips for those with setup questions.
I am not necessarily talking about getting latency measurements. If you're able to get these measurements, that will be great. However, I am willing to live with data based on subjective impressions from forum members. Even subjectively based impressions could create a baseline for minimum computer hardware configurations.

Great idea - we can share our experiences in this thread!   If we get enough responses, we could start a database. 

I think latency measurements are important though, and that we should get them whenever we can.  One man's 20ms is great, to another it might be a disaster; two opinions, one measurement.  I'll take the measurement!  One thing I found (in the Roland technology) is that multiple measurements are important, because measurements can vary widely, I've seen a 50% discrepancy in measurements.  I suspect it has to do with where the signal is in its cycle when the pitch-to-midi converter starts to measure peak-to-peak.  But you'd need to take a few & take an average. 

I am VERY interested in this variance.  Controversial thought, maybe, but I believe you could even get accustomed to 40+ms, if it were perfectly consistent.  We could all learn to play ahead, given some time.  But the variance, I think, registers as flakiness, that once in a while the tone just isn't there.   I think we'll get this variance with the FTP as well.  But hopefully it's better than previous technology, as Andreas Szalay reports:

...the new system reaches the minimum latency allowed by
physiscs in practically 100% of the cases, which Roland devices perform very
rarely, and the Axon maybe in 50-70%. The enhanced reliability is reflected
especially in very stable input to notesheet translation, as John McLaughlin
reported me who started to use it middle of September

Over on the VGF forum (sister forum to this, but primarily for Roland gear) I shared my latency measurements; I'll do the same for FTP once I've received it.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=870.msg44868#msg44868

There's another issue I think that needs to be addressed. I believe that the outputs from your guitar's pickups and the FTP should be viewed as separate instruments...

Yep, separate instruments!   And we're quite lucky since we get to play both at the same time!

I have waited years for a pitch to MIDI solution for guitar that works. My keyboard chops are non-existent. I've tried (and owned) many pitch to MIDI devices, with very disappointing results.

I think each of these instruments over the years has had their plusses and minuses, though.  Each can be used to make killer experimental sounds, songs & approaches, or on the other hand, help out a cover band fill in the blanks... 

[Elantric-fgn]

Myself - for Guitar to MIDI or Guitar to Synth latency testing, I have employed one of these for the "Source signal"
Korg CM-100L Clip On Contact Microphone For Tuners
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WGJ71U/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Latency Test Procedure:
1) Clip On Contact Microphone to Guitar Headstock
2) Feed the audio output of the Clip On Contact Microphone into Stereo Left Channel in Sony Sound Forge
3) Feed the audio output of the "Synth Unit Under Test"  into Stereo Right Channel in Sony Sound Forge
4) Play one string on the Guitar for 30 seconds, and save the Sony Sound Forge Audio file as a Broadcast Wave File.
5) Repeat Step # 4 for and all other guitar strings, and generate 6 separate stereo wave files - one per string. 
6) Use the Zoom in feature of Sony SoundForge to measure and write down the average LEFT vs RIGHT Audio Channel's delay time of each waveform on the SoundForge timeline.
7) Indicate All hardware signal flow and software employed, and test results for the Latency test.

[shawnb-fgn]

Latency Test Procedure:
1) Clip On Contact Microphone to Guitar Headstock
2) Feed the audio output of the Clip On Contact Microphone into Stereo Left Channel in Sony Sound Forge
3) Feed the audio output of the "Synth Unit Under Test"  into Stereo Right Channel in Sony Sound Forge
4) Play one string on the Guitar for 30 seconds, and save the Sony Sound Forge Audio file as a Broadcast Wave File.
5) Repeat Step # 4 for and all other guitar strings, and generate 6 separate stereo wave files - one per string. 
6) Use the Zoom in feature of Sony SoundForge to measure and write down the average LEFT vs RIGHT Audio Channel's delay time of each waveform on the SoundForge timeline.
7) Indicate All hardware signal flow and software employed, and test results for the Latency test.

If possible, I suggest capturing the MIDI note in a MIDI track as well, and to include it all.   In all of my GR-55 measurements, the MIDI note consistently preceded the audio note.  Kinda surprising initially, but on further reflection the synth does in fact need a couple ms to generate the audio tone from the MIDI signal.  This would make it easier to judge the performance of the FTP vs. the synth; I'm interested in the FTP's stats, and the FTP's output is MIDI. 

[Elantric-fgn]

Good advice.

I'm interested in the FTP's stats, and the FTP's output is MIDI. 

I'm confident we can trust the FTP Latency numbers already provided by Andras Szalay"

"The (FTP) latency -- as it can be described best in the usual manner, from the picking until the MIDI signal, considering a "best case" for a given pitch on the guitar -- is about 14 msec at the lowest pitch of the guitar, and goes down to about 6 msec in the high range, so the specification is almost exactly the same as the AXON. "
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33157.0


But this does not tell the entire picture for a performing musician, as we must separately add the "MIDI to Audio Sound Generation" latency of what ever Synth we are driving with the FTP.

A few will think "i trust my mid 1980's Oberheim Matrix 6R" but forget that most mid 1980's Synths take over 12 milliseconds to generate a sound after receiving a MIDI Note on message.
Years ago Electronic Musician had an article on "Keyboard Synth MIDI Latency Test" where they posted how long in milliseconds did it take for various different hardware Synths from many different manufacturers to respond to the same MIDI Note On/ Note off messages. Even with a similar type instruments patch being played back - the timing was wildly different across many different hardware synths

Various Softsynths latency results will be determined by the Computer type, Computer OS,Audio Interface Type, Buffer setting, Hard drive / Solid state Drive, etc.
As a live player, Im more interested in a table showing the FTP's "Guitar to Synth Output Sound Latency"  - with a very detailed description of all Hardware / software employed to achieve those results. 

[arkieboy-fgn]

"i trust my mid 1980's Oberheim Matrix 6R" but forget that most mid 1980's Synths take over 12 milliseconds to generate a sound after receiving a MIDI Note on message.

I'd have to say that doesn't equate with my experience with this particular beast: never noticed it being slower than a whole raft of synths I've paired it with over the years - D550, GR50 internal sounds, U110, Supernova II, E5K, TX81Z, M1.  SOS had the M1 as 3.2ms and a JV1080 as 4.4.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong here - do you have the actual numbers from the article?

Steve

[Elantric-fgn]

I will have to look up the old Electronic Musician article.

My point is that Delay Latency is nothing new, and not the exclusive domain of soft-synths.  Quite a few hardware synths also possess "Midi input to Sound Output" latency, from 3 to 13 milliseconds. Some folks have a misunderstanding and believe all hardware synths have instantaneous / zero latency sound generation.

So the TriplePlay Performance Latency will be the sum total delay latency of of all components employed, and if you choose the wrong MIDI controlled Synth engine, one FTP user's latency may be twice as much compared to another FTP user, simply because they are using a synth setup with long "MIDI to Audio" delay latency.   

Other reference reading is here:

THE TRUTH ABOUT LATENCY
Soft Synth Latency And Latency Jitter: Real-world Tests
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep02/articles/pcmusician0902.asp


MidiTest is a small utility that will test the speed and functioning of a MIDI hardware device.
http://miditest.earthvegaconnection.com/#about

[polaris20-fgn]

I'm looking forward to using this with two MacBook Pros, as well as a couple Windows desktops (Win8, Win7), and possibly even Linux 12.04LTS (Ubuntu) if I can get the RT kernel working well.

[shawnb-fgn]

I'm looking forward to using this with two MacBook Pros, as well as a couple Windows desktops (Win8, Win7), and possibly even Linux 12.04LTS (Ubuntu) if I can get the RT kernel working well.

Hmmm...  This got me thinking...  I just looked into license restrictions on the software.   

IK allows installs on up to 3 computers.   Looks like you have to request specific authorization codes for each. This also means that offline registration for computers not on the internet requires a fairly convoluted process using USB sticks.

NI allows 2 or 3 installs, depending on the product, & sounds like it is on the honor system. 

More here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33190.msg245910#msg245910

[polaris20-fgn]

I'm looking forward to using this with two MacBook Pros, as well as a couple Windows desktops (Win8, Win7), and possibly even Linux 12.04LTS (Ubuntu) if I can get the RT kernel working well.

Hmmm...  This got me thinking...  I just looked into license restrictions on the software.   

IK allows installs on up to 3 computers.   Looks like you have to request specific authorization codes for each. This also means that offline registration for computers not on the internet requires a fairly convoluted process using USB sticks.

NI allows 2 or 3 installs, depending on the product, & sounds like it is on the honor system. 

More here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33190.msg245910#msg245910

I'm not worried about that. I've already got the software in question, before even buying the FTP w/bundle.