GR-33 not working right -- repairable?

Started by cooltouch, April 23, 2020, 07:57:38 PM

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cooltouch

Hey everybody, it's been a long time since I've posted anything here. But I'm having problems with my GR-33 and I can't think of a more knowledgeable set of folks than those here. So here goes.


My GR-33 developed this problem a couple years ago. I put it away and forgot about it for a long time, but now there comes a time when I could really use it, so I dragged it back out again and hooked it up to my DAW. Still doing the same thing.


This is what it does. When I first hook it up to my DAW -- I'm using Cakewalk, but it likely doesn't matter -- I have the track set to MIDI and I have an instrument definition file for my audio interface that's for the GR-33 -- the audio interface's MIDI ports are what I use to get the GR-33 into Cakewalk. So anyway, when I first hook it up, it appears to work correctly for a couple of seconds, then it sticks on A13 for a few minutes, where I can't get it off that patch using either the wheel on the GR-33 or the switches on the pickup. Then after a few minutes, it releases A13 and I can change to whatever patch I want, but from that point forward, the signal is no longer being received by the DAW. I've tried this on two different computers and have had the exact same results.


The synth is working. I'm running audio outs from the GR-33 into the audio interface, so I can hear the synth sounds just fine, and I can run through the patches just fine too. But no matter what I try to do, I cannot get the signal to be picked up by the DAW after that first 2 seconds or so.


Any ideas what might be causing this? I'm pretty sure it's broke, but I'd like to get it repaired. I'm gonna see if I can find somebody local who can fix it first, but failing that, if any of you know of someone who can work on it, I'd appreciate hearing about them. I haven't contacted Roland yet. I'm assuming that, because of the unit's age, they probably no longer work on them (I bought mine almost 20 years ago).


TIA.

Best,
Michael

admin

Quote from: cooltouch on April 23, 2020, 07:57:38 PM
Hey everybody, it's been a long time since I've posted anything here. But I'm having problems with my GR-33 and I can't think of a more knowledgeable set of folks than those here. So here goes.


My GR-33 developed this problem a couple years ago. I put it away and forgot about it for a long time, but now there comes a time when I could really use it, so I dragged it back out again and hooked it up to my DAW. Still doing the same thing.


This is what it does. When I first hook it up to my DAW -- I'm using Cakewalk, but it likely doesn't matter -- I have the track set to MIDI and I have an instrument definition file for my audio interface that's for the GR-33 -- the audio interface's MIDI ports are what I use to get the GR-33 into Cakewalk. So anyway, when I first hook it up, it appears to work correctly for a couple of seconds, then it sticks on A13 for a few minutes, where I can't get it off that patch using either the wheel on the GR-33 or the switches on the pickup. Then after a few minutes, it releases A13 and I can change to whatever patch I want, but from that point forward, the signal is no longer being received by the DAW. I've tried this on two different computers and have had the exact same results.


The synth is working. I'm running audio outs from the GR-33 into the audio interface, so I can hear the synth sounds just fine, and I can run through the patches just fine too. But no matter what I try to do, I cannot get the signal to be picked up by the DAW after that first 2 seconds or so.


Any ideas what might be causing this? I'm pretty sure it's broke, but I'd like to get it repaired. I'm gonna see if I can find somebody local who can fix it first, but failing that, if any of you know of someone who can work on it, I'd appreciate hearing about them. I haven't contacted Roland yet. I'm assuming that, because of the unit's age, they probably no longer work on them (I bought mine almost 20 years ago).


TIA.

Replace the internal CR-2032 Battery inside the GR-33
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14682.0;attach=15358

Try using a different USB to MIDI adapter ( Roland UM-ONE-MKII) 
Roland UM-ONE MK2
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1249

gumtown

#2
Midi feedback loop?
The GR-55 suffers the same, as when it receives external midi patch change on the input,
the GR relays the patch change to the midi output, where the computer/DAW might have midi thru enabled.

try disabling the GR-33 midi program change Tx.

it might work if that is the issue,
on the GR-55, the user interface locks up for a minute while midi feedback is happening.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

cooltouch

Admin, I'll check the CR2032.
I have a few of the batteries laying around. When this problem first appeared, it was recommended that I use a UM One, so I bought one. Didn't make a difference.

Gumtown, I'll try your suggestions and get back to you. That is, if the battery change doesn't solve the issue.
Best,
Michael

Shingles

Does it work right when not connected to your audio interface at all?
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

cooltouch

#5
Shingles, yes, it works fine. When I connect to my audio interface using the 1/4" phono connectors, it also works just fine -- I can hear it through the speakers that are connected to the audio interface. But as I mentioned, I also ran the MIDI cables to the audio interface, then in Cakewalk indicated the audio interface as the source for the MIDI signal. It is this latter step where communication between the GR-33 and the DAW is interrupted.


OK, I checked the CR2032 and, believe it or don't, that battery, which is probably about 20 years old, actually has 0.02 more volts than a new one I was about to replace it with. I wish I would have thought to try and check it without removing it from its slot because now I've lost all my presets. Which might actually not be a bad thing. Cuz, I have news! I've actually managed to reestablish control between the GR-33 and Cakewalk, except now it appears to be operating as a MIDI controller. It isn't operating on its own channel, instead it's controlling a soft synth channel. Why, I haven't a clue yet. Time to dig out the manual and do a little RTFMing. I'll check back in when I know more.







Best,
Michael

admin

I bet its the MIDI LOOP BACK issue as Gumtown reported

Quote from: gumtown on April 23, 2020, 11:39:40 PM
Midi feedback loop?
The GR-55 suffers the same, as when it receives external midi patch change on the input,
the GR relays the patch change to the midi output, where the computer/DAW might have midi thru enabled.

try disabling the GR-33 midi program change Tx.

it might work if that is the issue,
on the GR-55, the user interface locks up for a minute while midi feedback is happening.

cooltouch

Thanks, admin. I read through most of the manual today, hoping to get things set back to where they're supposed to be. It was a slow read. English grammar is pretty twisted in spots, there are gaping holes in the instructions where important data is just missing, and out of 137 pages of text, only 11 are dedicated to MIDI.


I don't recall reading any instructions for anything called MIDI LOOP BACK, but I'll take a look again, just to be sure.  Also, this phrase:


"try disabling the GR-33 midi program change Tx."


I don't know what that means. I don't recall seeing a "Tx" setting anywhere . . . yet.
Best,
Michael

Shingles

Quote from: cooltouch on April 24, 2020, 12:30:46 PM
Shingles, yes, it works fine. When I connect to my audio interface using the 1/4" phono connectors, it also works just fine -- I can hear it through the speakers that are connected to the audio interface. But as I mentioned, I also ran the MIDI cables to the audio interface, then in Cakewalk indicated the audio interface as the source for the MIDI signal. It is this latter step where communication between the GR-33 and the DAW is

So, there is nothing wrong with you GR33.
The problem is in Cakewalk or between Cakewalk and your interface.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

gumtown

#9
There won't be anything in the instructions about "Midi Feedback loop", it is a result of what is happening with your DAW interaction with the GR-33.
The midi loopback is happen in your computer/DAW, causing data to feedback from the GR-33 > computer > GR-33.

What is happening is the GR-33 either receives a midi program change (P.C.) or patch change is done on the GR-33 dial,
the GR-33 sends that patch change out it's Midi Out port to the computer,
the computer/DAW receives the patch change on the Midi input port,
it then magically thinks it has received a patch change and had better let every other connected midi device know by relaying on the program change message to the Midi Output port,
the GR-33 then receives this program change message and then does nothing about changing patch because it is already on the same patch,
but will relay the program change message on back to the computer.

This will be happening at about 1000 times per second, and the GR-33 U.I. can't cope.
a bit like plugging an amp input into it's speaker output.

the fix is to either
A:) set the computer/DAW software to not relay on program change messages Midi Thru = off and Midi P.C. Tx = off.
B:) set the GR-33 so that midi thru = off, and midi PC Tx = off
C:) unplug one of the midi cables, if you are only using the GR-33 midi output for note transcribing, unplug the GR-33 midi input.


 
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

cooltouch

Shingles, it appears you are correct. I am making progress!

Quote from: gumtown on April 24, 2020, 11:57:46 PM
There won't be anything in the instructions about "Midi Feedback loop", it is a result of what is happening with your DAW interaction with the GR-33.
The midi loopback is happen in your computer/DAW, causing data to feedback from the GR-33 > computer > GR-33.

< . . . >

the fix is to either
A:) set the computer/DAW software to not relay on program change messages Midi Thru = off and Midi P.C. Tx = off.
B:) set the GR-33 so that midi thru = off, and midi PC Tx = off
C:) unplug one of the midi cables, if you are only using the GR-33 midi output for note transcribing, unplug the GR-33 midi input.

Yeah, I just watched it get stuck in this loop again. And as before, when it finally unstuck itself, there was no longer any communication between the two devices. Unfortunately CW doesn't have any sort of MIDI Thru settings at all, and I don't know what MIDI Tx is -- I don't recall ever seeing anything like that in CW's configuration pages. The GR-33 has a MIDI (PC) setting of "Off" and 1 through 128. I currently have it set to 1, which corresponds to the first patch, A11. Setting it to Off configures it so that only the internal sound generator is being used. When I tried this setting, I wasn't getting any sound from the GR-33 in CW.

So then I reread a section of the manual again and finally realized what they were talking about with their comments about setting "Poly" to a number. I've always used my GR-33 in Poly mode, but I don't recall in the past paying any attention to the number I had it set to. I guess I just got lucky back then -- or maybe not. I have literally forgotten more about MIDI than I know about it now. Turns out this number is the MIDI Channel number. Do they mention this anywhere in the manual? NO. You just sort of have to intuit it out from their rather thin and hard to understand discussion. So anyway, after it dawned on me that this number might be the channel, as soon as I set it to the channel I had set in Cakewalk, I got a response. The VUs are bouncing again and, for the first time in YEARS, when I hit record, it actually recorded something!

Still not quite out of the woods yet, though. CW isn't playing back what I recorded. Just to make sure real notes were recorded, though, I copied the passage to a neighboring MIDI track and played it back using that track's settings. It sounded good -- all the notes were there, and it was even doing a rather cool thing. This track was set to a Hammond B3, and the B3 was handling the finger vibrato and string bends. That was unexpected.

So now, I'm gonna play around with it some more, see what setting(s) I've overlooked or set wrong so that I can get the GR to play back.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.
Best,
Michael

cooltouch

#11
Still having problems, folks, and I'm hoping you can help this long-suffering guitar player out.


First of all, I'm hoping someone here can provide me with a definition of the term "MIDI P.C. Tx" (whether off or on) because I haven't been able to find out any info on it.


Of Gumtown's three suggestions, only one worked -- sort of. The last one, unplugging the cable from the audio interface to the GR-33. I had a bit of luck earlier, recording about 30 seconds of MIDI content before it stopped recording it. I didn't do anything here. Just clicked on record, saw that it was laying down the track, so I went with it, then noticed about 30 seconds later that info was no longer being recorded. This was with the cable unplugged. Couldn't get it to record with the cable plugged in. But to hear the playback, I had to plug it back in. Well, sometimes. Sometimes, even when I do plug it back in, the playback doesn't work, and other times it does. But it does seem like -- for now -- once it starts playing back, it continues to.


But I haven't been able to figure out what's going on with the recording drop-out. I haven't been able to get it to come back. It occurs to me that, if I shut down CW and the GR-33 and restart both, I might get it to come back for a while.  But for how long? I really need reliability, which is sorely lacking at the moment.


So, any other ideas or suggestions I can try?
Best,
Michael

Brent Flash

Quote from: cooltouch on April 28, 2020, 03:57:14 PM

First of all, I'm hoping someone here can provide me with a definition of the term "MIDI P.C. Tx" (whether off or on) because I haven't been able to find out any info on it.
Musical Instrument Digital Interface Program Change Transmit

Brent Flash

#13
Quote from: Brent Flash on April 28, 2020, 04:11:18 PM
Musical Instrument Digital Interface Program Change Transmit
If you don't want the unit to change programs (patches) on connected MIDI devices you should turn it off.

Brent Flash

Quote from: cooltouch on April 28, 2020, 03:57:14 PM

Of Gumtown's three suggestions, only one worked -- sort of. The last one, unplugging the cable from the audio interface to the GR-33. I had a bit of luck earlier, recording about 30 seconds of MIDI content before it stopped recording it. I didn't do anything here. Just clicked on record, saw that it was laying down the track, so I went with it, then noticed about 30 seconds later that info was no longer being recorded. This was with the cable unplugged. Couldn't get it to record with the cable plugged in. But to hear the playback, I had to plug it back in. Well, sometimes. Sometimes, even when I do plug it back in, the playback doesn't work, and other times it does. But it does seem like -- for now -- once it starts playing back, it continues to.


Are you trying to record audio or MIDI data or both?

cooltouch

Quote from: Brent Flash on April 28, 2020, 04:18:10 PM
Are you trying to record audio or MIDI data or both?


MIDI only. If I wanted to record audio, I'd have to also open up an audio track, which I haven't done.


Brent, there's nothing like that command -- the PC Tx one -- that I know of in Cakewalk. I don't recall seeing anything about it in the Roland manual, but I'll check again. It might be tucked away in a corner somewhere.

Best,
Michael

admin

#16
Quote from: cooltouch on April 29, 2020, 10:12:26 AM

MIDI only. If I wanted to record audio, I'd have to also open up an audio track, which I haven't done.


Brent, there's nothing like that command -- the PC Tx one -- that I know of in Cakewalk. I don't recall seeing anything about it in the Roland manual, but I'll check again. It might be tucked away in a corner somewhere.

Do read the manual


and

GR -33 FAQ

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14682.0

Brent Flash

Quote from: cooltouch on April 29, 2020, 10:12:26 AM

Brent, there's nothing like that command -- the PC Tx one -- that I know of in Cakewalk. I don't recall seeing anything about it in the Roland manual, but I'll check again. It might be tucked away in a corner somewhere.
I would read starting on page 86 through 96 in the (GR-33) owner's manual and pay attention to what LOCAL CONTROL ON/OFF is set to.

cooltouch

#18
Brent, specifically, Local Control, I found, is on Page 94, for anyone who might be interested. The other pages have little to add to this subject. The manual mentioned specifically collisions and failure to recognize switch operation, both of which I'd been dealing with.


I had tried setting Local Control to OFF once before, but hadn't gotten anything beneficial from this setting one way or another, so I moved on to other things. But since you mentioned it, and since I'm basically going back over everything, I decided to give it another try.


I must have had something set incorrectly within the GR-33 before, because what I noticed right off was that Cakewalk was again recording the GR-33's MIDI signal, but I couldn't hear it when I was playing it back or when I played the guitar. It was at that point that I realized I still had one MIDI cable unplugged from my audio interface, so I plugged it back in. As soon as I did, I could hear what I was playing, and I could here what I'd laid down in the track.


So I tried laying down a track again, and this time it worked -- I successfully laid down about four and a half minutes of MIDI data and I was hearing what I was playing. So the collisions were gone. Plus, the GR-33 was responding to the switches on the pickup again, when previously they'd lock up for a while.


As for performance, lag was almost undetectable, so I guess this old long-in-the-tooth laptop and my year-old audio interface is able to handle the throughput ok. I have the GR optimized for my playing style, so even though I continue to use Poly mode, my GR is not suffering from any of the problems mentioned in the FAQ for reasons why one should use the MONO mode over the Poly mode. I guess it all depends on ones style and technique. I've been playing classical guitar since 1972 (millions of scales practiced) and when I came back to the electric, I maintained a strict alternate picking technique with scales that I still do, these many years later. I think that all this helps when it comes to being able to lay down clean scale passages. And besides, the great thing about having a MIDI guitar is I can always call up the Staff view in Cakewalk, and edit my playing to eliminate the odd flubbed note or two or dozen.  8)


So in conclusion, I'm glad I stuck it out and worked through to a solution, and I can't thank you guys enough for helping me out. That FAQ on the GR-33  alone is something that will probably take me weeks to digest. But here's hoping it's gonna be a while before I need to refer to that infernal manual again.

Best,
Michael

Brent Flash

Good you got it going and no repair needed!  :)