New analog guitarsynth like the GR-700, but with better tracking please!

Started by strengdal3, May 03, 2017, 08:58:53 PM

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strengdal3

New analog guitarsynth like the GR-700, or a jupiter8 but with better tracking please!
Im tired of all the modelling synth, it does not sound as good as the analog synthesizers.
I would like GR-700 with fx and midi out, I dont know if 13pin gk-3 is the best but some kind of triggering that not includes midi in. Midi destroying the feel of pitchbend and vibrato.
Thanks!
Guitar synth man

Brak(E)man

IMHO the Sy300 sounds as good as an analog synth (I have the 700 as well) , the feel and playing is perfect apart from a major problem, the polyphony
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

vanceg

Quote from: strengdal3 on May 03, 2017, 08:58:53 PM
New analog guitarsynth like the GR-700, or a jupiter8 but with better tracking please!
Im tired of all the modelling synth, it does not sound as good as the analog synthesizers.
I would like GR-700 with fx and midi out, I dont know if 13pin gk-3 is the best but some kind of triggering that not includes midi in. Midi destroying the feel of pitchbend and vibrato.
Thanks!

I'm rediscovering the GR-300 emulator in the VG-99 and I'm stunned at everything I can get out of it.  Just pleased as punch. Have you tried it?  I'm not saying it's ideal for you, I don't know your taste and how exact you are about your specific tone, but I'm comparing the VG-99 to a real 300 here and they sound really close to my ears.  Yes, absolutely there are some subtle differences, absolutely.

chrish

There's no question that my analog path Moog Voyager sounds way better then my DSP path Sy 300.

The difference comes in the fact that the sy300 tracks the expressiveness of the guitar very well versus very poor response tracking the Moog oscillators due to having to convert guitar pitch to MIDI and then converting that MIDI signal to control voltage in order to trigger the analog envelope gate and Define voltage for the oscillator pitch in the Moog.

One way to use the all analog signal path of the Moog with a guitar is to feed the guitar preamp signal into the analog input on the Moog. This bypasses the Moog oscillators and processes that guitar string as an oscillator through the Moog analog filters.

Using the Moog in this way allows for the expressiveness of the guitar to come through, although as the string polyphony increases so does the fuzziness of the audio output through the filters similar to how the polyphony on the sy300 sounds.

However there are always limitations to any mechanical device.

chrish

Here's a good article that may help explain why analog oscillators sound better too many peoples ears.

from r/synthesizers

susbemol

For the vast majority of people who have access to both analogue and digital synths, the analogue ones always sound better. While everyone appreciates the convenience of digital synths, the difference in tone and character is very obvious.

I'm planning to post some audio clips comparing a real analogue GR-300 and the emulation on the GP-10. While the GP-10 is nice and totally usable, it's definitely not in the same league as the real deal.

ADP

What about the new Roland JX-03? If you run any kind of guitar synth with MIDI output into it, you've basically got a GR-700 reboot in a handy-sized new box with PG-200 controls but without any of the worries of failing chips. I would have bought one before now if it weren't for the fact that it's only got four voices. Yes, you can chain two of them together to get eight voices, but it's just mean that they didn't put six into it from the start.

RogerVG8EX

Quote from: ADP on May 10, 2017, 04:09:49 AM
What about the new Roland JX-03? If you run any kind of guitar synth with MIDI output into it, you've basically got a GR-700 reboot in a handy-sized new box with PG-200 controls but without any of the worries of failing chips. I would have bought one before now if it weren't for the fact that it's only got four voices. Yes, you can chain two of them together to get eight voices, but it's just mean that they didn't put six into it from the start.

The JX-03 looks very cool and it has the good old "Turbo Lover" sound but it only responds to 4 voices (a guitar synth has 6 voice polyphony). I've seen that a lot of people have bought the Roland Boutique Juno and Jupiter versions to use them with the You Rock Guitar. I'm thinking of getting one for my guitar rack.

ADP

Quote from: RogerVG8EX on May 10, 2017, 06:28:24 AM
The JX-03 looks very cool and it has the good old "Turbo Lover" sound but it only responds to 4 voices (a guitar synth has 6 voice polyphony).

From https://www.roland.com/uk/products/jx-03/:

Chain Mode

The original JX-3P was a powerful synth featuring 2 digitally controlled oscillators for each of its 6 voices. The JX-03 features a chain mode that allows you to connect two JX-03 modules using the MIDI ports and create one, 8-voice synthesizer. Adding additional modules adds another 4 voices of polyphony with each module. This is especially great when controlling the JX-03 from a larger external keyboard. You can even edit the sound from the master module and control both units. Great for realtime filter sweeps and envelope adjustments.

vanceg

Quote from: susbemol on May 05, 2017, 04:40:31 PM
For the vast majority of people who have access to both analogue and digital synths, the analogue ones always sound better. While everyone appreciates the convenience of digital synths, the difference in tone and character is very obvious.

I'm planning to post some audio clips comparing a real analogue GR-300 and the emulation on the GP-10. While the GP-10 is nice and totally usable, it's definitely not in the same league as the real deal.

Yeah, I put it through so many effects I suspect I could never tell the difference blindfolded.

strengdal3

Quote from: vanceg on May 04, 2017, 06:57:36 PM
I'm rediscovering the GR-300 emulator in the VG-99 and I'm stunned at everything I can get out of it.  Just pleased as punch. Have you tried it?  I'm not saying it's ideal for you, I don't know your taste and how exact you are about your specific tone, but I'm comparing the VG-99 to a real 300 here and they sound really close to my ears.  Yes, absolutely there are some subtle differences, absolutely.
Im a owner of the VG-99 and GR-300 as well, its a pretty good guitar synth but the modelling of GR-300 have a lack of tracking. you should try to play a fast run on the 4th string over 12 fret and maybe you see my point.
Please Roland!!!  think retro and make a analog guitar synth again!!!   my Roland GR-500 Paraphonic synth from 1978 is realy cool I love it, but dont know how long it gona last now. And my GR-300 have the best feel of all the guitar synth,and the only one that is perfect for me. But the GR-300 is not versatlility at all. But, thanks! for all great guitar synthesizers from Roland.
Guitar synth man

chrish

Quote from: strengdal3 on June 08, 2017, 07:48:42 PM
Im a owner of the VG-99 and GR-300 as vell, its a pready good guitar synth but the modelling of GR-300 have a lack of tracking. you should try to play a fast run on the 4th string over 12 fret and maybe you see my point.
Please Roland!!!  think retro and make a analog guitar synth again!!!   my Roland GR-500 Paraphonic synth from 1978 is realy cool I love it, but dont know how long it gona last now. And my GR-300 have the best feel of all the guitar synth,and the only one that is perfect for me. But the GR-300 is not versatlility at all. But, thanks! for all great guitar synthesizers from Roland.
spicetone is thinking retro. They are already producing a hex Distortion similar to the gr 100 and with enough support the company would most likely develop further hex products.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16226.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12104.0


strengdal3

Quote from: chrish on June 08, 2017, 08:09:23 PM
spicetone is thinking retro. They are already producing a hex Distortion similar to the gr 100 and with enough support the company would most likely develop further hex products.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16226.0
That is interesting, Cool!
Guitar synth man

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: chrish on June 08, 2017, 08:09:23 PM
spicetone is thinking retro. They are already producing a hex Distortion similar to the gr 100 and with enough support the company would most likely develop further hex products.

I would not call it retro; instead it is going with the best technology from a tracking viewpoint.  Sure, it may not be as versatile at this point as DSP solutions, but that could come with future refinements.  I for one am experimenting with analog Eurorack synths designed specifically for guitar, with zero latency.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on June 09, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
I would not call it retro; instead it is going with the best technology from a tracking viewpoint.  Sure, it may not be as versatile at this point as DSP solutions, but that could come with future refinements.  I for one am experimenting with analog Eurorack synths designed specifically for guitar, with zero latency.
I'd be interested to know what you're using for the analog eurorack synth set up?

reingarnichts


A new hexaphonic analogue-synth would be interesting, even when restricted - the GR300-model on my GP10 and the Wave-synth are also restricted  but very usable. I never use the rather glitchy OSC-synth.
(EHX is showing that "one-trick"-ponys can be quite successful (or "collectable" ;) ).)

I once built a hexafuzz on my own, basically six fuzz-face-circuits combined with a GK-power-supply and breakout, nothing really fancy, but this was my start into the hex-world, it worked and it was a nice project.
After that I bought a GP10, because it was more comfortable and usable.

The problem with analogue: you have to built everything sixfold, I built my hexafuzz on a perfboard, and that was really annoying. 
Also integration into modern setups can be a hassle (like Midi-switching, and so on. But then again: those EHX '9-Pedals don't feature that either...).
Not really a problem for a big company, but six complex analogue circuits are far more expensive than a microcontroller (at least in development).  And then there is the analogue mojo, which raises prices irrationally. A simple mono fuzz-face still costs about 150,- and the circuit is neither complex nor does it need any expensive parts (<2€). So digital might be the better way for the customer ;) 

Still: I would love to built a hexaphonic modular system, just for the fun of it. But that would require a lot of time and brain capacity and I like to play music in my free time. ;)

Elantric

The Thread title is a bit odd - since the 1984 GR-700 was the 1st Guitar to MIDI unit Roland ever offered, highly based on the Roland JX3P keyboard - and had very high latency and not a speck of analog like GR-300 circuitry.

But in 2017 , for DIY / Limited production - Analog remains appealing as this typically means no digital clocks higher than 10MHz - and is immune from the need for FCC Class A RF Emissions Certification  ( typically a $7K expense burden on the manufacturer for every product     

I contend this plays a large role in the explosion of Modular analog Synths and boutique guitar fuzz box vendors the past 10 years  - since garage based small limited production Analog based products  can still be legally sold,  as long as they are under 10MHz, RoHS/ WEE lead free and under 48 Volts Power supply

susbemol

Analogue synths and other gear still require certification to be sold, at least in the UK/Europe. The main reason why people are drawn to analogue is the fact that it often sounds much richer than their digital emulations or counterparts. For example, when comparing the KORG Legacy Collection MS-20 (which is very nice) to their real analogue MS-20 Mini, it is night and day.

This is also definitely true if you compare a real analogue GR-300 and the digital emulations on the VG-99, GR-55, GP-10. I have an analogue GR-300 and also VG-99/GP-10 units - the difference is very clear, especially when pitch shifting the digital emulation as they suffer badly from aliasing introducing noises, etc.

chrish

Quote " Still: I would love to built a hexaphonic modular system, just for the fun of it. But that would require a lot of time and brain capacity and I like to play music in my free time."

Same here.

I had thought about buying a used GR 300 but those things are old, big and ugly and require 24 pin cables and dedicated guitar unless you can build your own 13 to 24 pin converter box ( or find a GK 1pickup). I guess my major concern is the Aging Electronics.

I have been reading dr. Wayne Joness's site to learn how the gr 300 achieved its 3.32 ms latency and excellent tracking abilities.

http://www.joness.com/gr300/GR-300.htm

The gr 300 used pitch to cv to  trigger the two voltage controlled oscillators for each string and a circuit that shaped the waveform so amplitude would be consistent across the fretboard.

As far as I know there are two ways to trigger oscillators on analogue modular gear using the guitar as the controller.

One is using a pitch to control voltage module, such as the
Analogue Solutions RS 35. They are around $225 new and Trigger monophonically so a 6-string hex pup guitar would require six of those modules for 6 note polyphony (and a hex breakout box).

From what I've been reading some people are having good tracking  accuracy results and some people not so much.

Apparently success has a lot of it has to do with raising the input and filtering the input audio in order to isolate the fundamental note.

The second method is using midi to control voltage. So with a guitar controller you have to first take the pitch of the guitar and convert that to MIDI and then take that Midi and then convert to control voltage. I found that to be a very slow and inaccurate translation process because we all know how well guitar pitch to MIDI converters work.

If some niche company such as spicetone did do a 13 pin clone of the gr 300 and expand that design to include wave shaping, digital control of analog circuits and increased modulation, I think it would be a successful product.







Elantric

Quote from: chrish on August 04, 2017, 09:15:06 AM
Quote " Still: I would love to built a hexaphonic modular system, just for the fun of it. But that would require a lot of time and brain capacity and I like to play music in my free time."

Same here.

I had thought about buying a used GR 300 but those things are old, big and ugly and require 24 pin cables and dedicated guitar unless you can build your own 13 to 24 pin converter box ( or find a GK 1pickup). I guess my major concern is the Aging Electronics.

I have been reading dr. Wayne Joness's site to learn how the gr 300 achieved its 3.32 ms latency and excellent tracking abilities.

http://www.joness.com/gr300/GR-300.htm

The gr 300 used pitch to cv to  trigger the two voltage controlled oscillators for each string and a circuit that shaped the waveform so amplitude would be consistent across the fretboard.

There are two ways to trigger oscillators on analogue modular gear using the guitar as the controller.

One is using a pitch to control voltage module, such as the
Analogue Solutions RS 35. They are around $225 new and Trigger monophonically so a 6-string hex pup guitar would require six of those modules for 6 note polyphony (and a hex breakout box).

From what I've been reading some people are having good tracking  accuracy results and some people not so much.

Apparently success has a lot of it has to do with raising the input  amplitude and filtering the input audio in order to isolate the fundamental note.

The second method is using midi to control voltage. So with a guitar controller you have to first take the pitch of the guitar and convert that to MIDI and then take that Midi and then convert to control voltage. I found that to be a very slow an inaccurate translation process because we all know how well guitar pitch to MIDI converters work.

If some niche company such as spicetone did do a 13 pin clone of the gr 300 and expand that design to include wave shaping, digital control of analog circuits and increased modulation, I think it would be a successful product.


another route - many Guitar MFX units have included a Guitar triggered mono Synth voice
We are at a point where you could buy 6 used POD XTs, and use a GK13 to 6 channel 1/4" breakout box and run "a Separate  POD XT for each String". and still be under $750






Or run three or six Boss VF-1's
https://medias.audiofanzine.com/files/vf-1-editor-manual-0-10-3-479371.pdf


https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VF-1_OM.pdf


chrish

Quote from: Elantric on August 04, 2017, 09:40:19 AM

another route - many Guitar MFX units have included a Guitar triggered mono Synth voice
We are at a point where you could buy 6 used POD XTs, and use a GK13 to 6 channel 1/4" breakout box and run "a Separate  POD XT for each String". and still be under $750






Or run three or six Boss VF-1's
https://medias.audiofanzine.com/files/vf-1-editor-manual-0-10-3-479371.pdf


https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VF-1_OM.pdf


those are options but doesn't it still put you in the realm of digital modeling?

As far as analogue synths that are controlled only by MIDI, the Roland MKS 50 seems to do very well with tracking when used with the Roland gr 50. Six note poly using a dco and sub oscillator circuits. It even has a crazy noise circuit but again old electronics.

It's kind of funny that I see a lot of sellers of old analogue gear touting the fact that the gear hasn't been used much and been sitting in a closet for the last 25 years.

Seems like that would be a red flag given what I've learned on the Forum about capacitors that degrade when not powered up occasionally.

Majiken

I used the VF-1 as my stage preamp direct to the mixer for several years (I mixed the band from the stage, also playing guitar) controlled by the Behringer 1010 footswich. GREAT piece of kit!!! Unfortunately, it died on me mid-gig, so I replaced it with a Line 6 Pod X3. Loved that too....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

drjoness2001

This track was done entirely using the VG-99/GR-300 emulation for bass, pads, strings, leads, etc:


chrish

Quote from: Elantric on August 04, 2017, 06:34:06 AM
The Thread title is a bit odd - since the 1984 GR-700 was the 1st Guitar to MIDI unit Roland ever offered, highly based on the Roland JX3P keyboard - and had very high latency and not a speck of analog like GR-300 circuitry.

quote"The GR700 floor unit, however, was a huge improvement over its predecessor, as it was basically the guts of a JX3P adapted for use as a guitar synth. If you are unfamiliar with the JX3P, it is a six-voice, two-DCO-per-voice, conventional analogue polysynth."

http://www.joness.com/gr300/sound-on-sound-history-of-roland-99.htm

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch