Helix video

Started by Orren Merton, June 15, 2015, 05:27:08 PM

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Orren Merton

Not quite sure where this fits, but with it's Variax support and all it's I/O, I thought it might be of interest:


Orren

admin


Jim Williams

Now I don't know about the rest of you but I have not seen anything yet that makes this worth a $ 1500 price tag.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

ZenSonic

Quote from: Jim Williams on June 16, 2015, 04:08:53 AM
Now I don't know about the rest of you but I have not seen anything yet that makes this worth a $ 1500 price tag.

Is $1500 for the Helix the street price or MSR?

admin

#4
$1499 is  the street price at Sweetwater

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Helix


mbenigni

#5
Quote from: Jim Williams on June 16, 2015, 04:08:53 AM
Now I don't know about the rest of you but I have not seen anything yet that makes this worth a $ 1500 price tag.

Bottom line is I won't know until I've heard it (in person) - but for the moment I disagree with you.  You have to remember that if you're running out and buying, for instance, a Kemper or a Fractal rack, you're not getting anything in the way of a footcontroller.  That's a significant expense if you want anything nearly as sophisticated as what the Helix offers (Kemper wants $600 for something far less capable, and presently as rare as hen's teeth) and in some cases you'll have to put in plenty of your own hours (maybe years) and stress to make it work properly.

Line6 is also really generous with effects in my experience.  Even if the amp sims only rise to "mediocre", the reverbs, rotary, etc. will likely be excellent.  And the amp sims can be dressed up with whatever cab IR's you prefer, which is bound to help.  And the routing - both internal and external - is wide open, as are the footcontroller and MIDI assignments from what I gather.  These things are a big deal to me, and a big improvement over my experience with the Kemper.  Tone is the most important thing, yes, but it's not the only thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm just excited about the next shiny thing, but in strictly practical terms, the Helix ticks a lot of boxes.  I don't think the price is unreasonable, especially when you account for inevitable sales/ discounts.

Orren Merton

Quote from: mbenigni on June 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Bottom line is I won't know until I've heard it (in person) ... Line6 is also really generous with effects in my experience.  Even if the amp sims only rise to "mediocre", the reverbs, rotary, etc. will likely be excellent.  And the amp sims can be dressed up with whatever cab IR's you prefer, which is bound to help.  And the routing - both internal and external - is wide open, as are the footcontroller and MIDI assignments from what I gather.  These things are a big deal to me ... I don't know, maybe I'm just excited about the next shiny thing, but in strictly practical terms, the Helix ticks a lot of boxes.  I don't think the price is unreasonable, especially when you account for inevitable sales/ discounts.

I agree. Aside from the internal models, the Helix offers some amazing control and routing flexibility—as a user of tube amps, this device looks like it integrates extremely well into a traditional amp rig. That means it's probably well suited for the "four cable method" as just an FX box. The OS looked easy to navigate, which is key if you're going to set it up to control a complete rig of other things, and I really like the "mini screen for each footswitch" setup so you can see what each button is controlling at a glance.

So just looking at this as a "command center" for a complex rig, it costs just over double what the BOSS ES-8 will cost. If it offers double the control features of the ES-8, and a far simpler interface with it's nice big display and touch sensitive encoders, that alone might be worth the asking price.

But then you add in all it's internal sound capabilities—they certainly give you a lot of stuff for your money, but how good they are we'll have to hear for ourselves. The Sweetwater demo sure made the Plexi model seem touch dynamic, it really cleaned up when Dan rolled off the volume nicely, which speaks well for playability. As for the sound, everything he played was pretty wet, but that's the advantage of units like this, you can drown a bland meal in a lot of sauce, so to speak.

So we'll see if this is worth the price, and what kind of rig it's cut out for. But I look at this as a potentially exciting product. It's great to see Line 6 developing a flexible, high end device, and not simply bluetooth enabled iOS capable consumer products.

Orren

Deus02

#7
With this unit, I believe, especially from an electronics perspective,  we are now seeing what is most likely the initial significant influence of Line 6's owner, Yamaha.  People wondered what might happen to future Line 6 products under their ownership, however, I was pretty optimistic considering  its long time experience with its proprietary and innovative DSP and how it could be used in future products and this might just be the beginning of all that.  Even with all its extra power and flexibility, at three times the price of the HD Pods, I suppose until we see more detailed user accounts and how it sounds compared to all others, we will just have to wait and see.   It does look very interesting, however, especially, that new user interface and the multi-faceted functions of the foot switches.

Elantric


mbenigni

#9
New video is mostly just more of the same, unfortunately.  For the life of me I can't imagine why someone demoing an amp modeling product wouldn't spin the dial and call out a few different amps.

EDIT:  But I did just see a new video demonstrating the hands off editing, by the same Sweetwater rep, and that includes - briefly - some very promising clean tones.  My optimism is renewed.  :)


Spider

BTW: FTP mounting bracket on Variax?

Elantric

#11
QuoteFTP mounting bracket on Variax?

Correct ! JTV-69 + FTP = Guitar with a wide sonic palette


Very similar to mine  - btw Sean Halley (above) is playing a USA JTV-69 ( has the HipShot Locking 6 inline Tuners)

Since the Line-6 Helix is also USB 2.0 Class Compliant and IOS compatible ( by adding the Apple USB Camera Adapter to iPhone / iPad) ,  while they were adding the "whole enchilada" of I/O ports, too bad Line-6  omitted adding a USB Host Port for the FTP Receiver
( Same issue exists on TC Helicon Voicelive 3 Extreme - the USB Host port exists (see far right)  - but no firmware to enable it



Meanwhile we await the late August 2015 release of the Fishman Floor USB Host adapter  / foot controller


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13447.0


thebrushwithin

Couldn't help but notice he used the term " profiled " each component, which is misleading, I would say. They obviously "modelled" each component, cause we Kemper owners know the difference, as each one of us can profile, which is different from modeling. The newer videos have tamed the high end rasp, somewhat, but it is still inherent in the sound as I listen with headphones. My biggest criticism, in the design is actually something they brag about, which is the capacitive touch switches. I don't know about you guys, but I get "fat foot" during gigs, and those switches are way too sensitive, and their proximity to one another, is just begging for it! Maybe that can be controlled, I don't know, but I doubt it. Also, since this has been in the works for 6 years, probably the Yamaha influence was more money than tech. It would be great to see Yamaha bring in their Magic Stomp tech style, to some new Line 6 gear. Since I have a Kemper, I'll pass on this one. Holding out for the new VG/GR/SY ! ;D

ZenSonic

I am getting the distinct feeling that allot can be done live with the Helix. I look forward to putting one through my paces.

admin

#14
QuoteCouldn't help but notice he used the term " profiled "

If you review Line-6 Forums, many users often state :

" All Line-6 DSP Product's Amp and FX sounds are meticulous DSP recreations from our warehouse of vintage / modern Tube Amps and FX - which we have meticulously "profiled".

IN part it's true , but there are legions of Line-6 users who believe their Line-6 gear employs "profiled exact recreations"- trusting the marketing techno-spin more than their ears, since very few folks have real experience with the real Amp / FX or Math DSP programming experience.

It's the basis for many daily debates / arguments on user forums for Roland, Line-6, Digitech, Fractal, Kemper, IK Multimedia, Native Instruments, Peavey.

Example:
http://line6.com/support/topic/11314-how-big-of-improvement-is-the-model-on-jtv-vs-the-original-variax/?fromsearch=1

QuoteHonestly I don't know how you could say those are better. It's obvious that Line 6 is better in the tone department with it's piezo bridge and sensor techniques. It's pretty much Guitar Profiling more than modeling.

So that leaves the typical guitarist thinking:

Roland COSM = "Modeled" versions of famous Amps /FX

Line-6 and Kemper = "Profiled" versions of famous Amps / FX


http://line6.com/support/topic/9778-me-too-goodbye-line-6-hello-boss-gp-10/?fromsearch=1

http://geargods.net/interviews/in-the-axe-fx-vs-kemper-debate-twelve-foot-ninja-chooses-line-6/

mbenigni

LOL I knew it would cause a stir when he used that word - you can hear him hesitate beforehand, in fact.

Profiled, modeled, emulated, virtual... it's all semantics.  Mr. Halley never claims that the Helix can profile a user's amplifier - a feat that remains unique to the Kemper - he says that Line 6 profiled certain components.  Still a valid use of the English language IMO.

thebrushwithin

It seems, from a non-technical view, that "modeling" goes through a circuit piece by piece, whereas "profiling" "samples" the whole amp interaction at once. In the video, he says they go through each component, piece by piece. I believe there is quite a difference, as the patents would show. However, I still love the COSM modeling, and, as always, I dig whatever works!
But those sensitive foot switches are going to cause some problems live, IMO.

admin

#17
I'll suggest Roland will increase their sales by simply dropping the term:

"COSM" (Composite Object Sound Modeling)


and launch a new ground breaking game changer technology:

"COSP" (Composite Object Sound Profiling)


Beats "Tone Capsule"


ZenSonic

Perhaps the Helix's foot pedal sensitivity levels can be adjusted. ,,,hoping.

mbenigni

#19
Quote from: thebrushwithin on June 19, 2015, 07:23:44 AM
It seems, from a non-technical view, that "modeling" goes through a circuit piece by piece, whereas "profiling" "samples" the whole amp interaction at once. In the video, he says they go through each component, piece by piece. I believe there is quite a difference, as the patents would show.

Agreed - from an overall system perspective - but in the same way that the I/O behaviors of the entire signal path are "profiled" by the Kemper, so are the behaviors of the individual components ("circuit pieces") which subsequently lend themselves to the Line 6/ Fractal/ et al "modeling" solutions.  Whatever the case, at some level you're dealing with formulas, coefficients, etc. that describe input/output relationships (curves).  It's all math; these are all English words describing math.  I don't mean to split hairs - I do understand the fundamental difference in Kemper's profiling solution, along with its strengths and weaknesses, but I get frustrated with the fixation on the words, and the assumption that one implies superiority over the other.

(P.S.  If we're getting into semantics here, use of the word "sample" is actually much more fraught than profiling vs. modeling.)

QuoteBut those sensitive foot switches are going to cause some problems live, IMO.

They'll probably be OK unless you've got bare feet or damp shoes.  In any case, I'm guessing there's a system menu option to disable the feature, for that very reason.  I personally think it's a cool way to add contextual switching/menu selection where it belongs, e.g. close to the corresponding effect.  It would be even cooler if you could twist those switches to dial in values, but I know in the real world this would just result in a component prone to early failure.

mbenigni

Quote"COSP" (Composite Object Sound Profiling)

LOL exactly my point - only more succinctly.  :)

admin

#21
Quote/ Fractal/ et al "modeling solutions.  Whatever the case, at some level you're dealing with formulas, coefficients, etc. that describe input/output relationships (curves).  It's all math; these are all English words describing math.  I don't mean to split hairs - I do understand the fundamental difference in Kemper's profiling solution, along with it's strengths and weaknesses, but I get frustrated with the fixation on the words, and the assumption that one implies superiority over the other

But at least Kemper stands alone by providing vastly more "Fahrvergnügen" over the competition.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrvergnugen

mbenigni

#22
QuoteBut at least Kemper stands alone by providing vastly more "Fahrvergnügen" over the competition.

Unfortunately for me, "Fahrvergnügen" has translated to: limited product availability, quirky omissions in functionality, and emails to support staff disappearing somewhere over the Atlantic ocean.  Even my KPA is missing in action right now, despite assurances that it is (somewhere) repaired.  (I guess if I needed assurance that I could live without it, they've provided that service LOL.)

I'm actually kind of looking forward to transitioning back to a more mainstream product, even if all the cool kids think I've lost the plot.

admin

Your mileage may vary

Too bad your KPA experince has been closer to owning a 1977 Audi 5 cylinder Quattro with a defective transmission.

mbenigni

#24
Quote from: admsustainiac on June 19, 2015, 08:04:45 AM
Your mileage may vary

Too bad your KPA experince has been closer to owning a 1977 Audi 5 cylinder Quattro with a defective transmission.

To be fair, it's been more like owning a race car when I just need a fast passenger car.  I.e. it does what it does extremely well, but it's too specialized for my needs - challenging and with too many blind spots (to carry on with the analogy).  If I were a professional with adequate resources I could probably be happy with the Kemper as a part of an effective rig.  ("Part of this balanced breakfast!")  But when I look at a modeling preamp with onboard effects, MIDI I/O, etc... I expect it to be able to run the show on its own.  For my purposes the Kemper's not up for the job.

Your mileage may certainly vary - and I'd like to stress that point emphatically to whomever considers buying my KPA from me!   ;D  It does sound fantastic, no question there.