Why Roland, why.

Started by joo1, October 06, 2014, 09:08:18 AM

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joo1

Welcome. I write simple sentences because they do not know English
I am a user of Boss and Roland already for 20 years.
I used a Boss GT 3, Boss GT 8, Boss GT 10 and GT 100 and the Roland VG 88, VG 99 and GR 55.
I do not understand why the company Roland synthesizer does not perform the possibilities VG99 and GR55, the system pedals Boss GT 10 or GT 100.
Roland GR 55 has great potential, but not well selected banks.
Why the system can not be like the Boss GT.
You have to buy a MIDI controller to use a well-GR 55.
Boss GP 10! I do not know why there is no MIDI.
Why is it a good processor is so wrong control.
The text explains the google translator - sorry :)

Elantric

#1
QuoteWhy is it a good processor is so wrong control.
The text explains the google translator - sorry :)

Roland is focused on providing a product range with the least overlapping features, and in the post 2008 global economic meltdown they have determined the minimum feature set to control costs and yield the important higher profits to stay in business.

(details here:)

Roland's sales and profits?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10865.msg78926#msg78926


I doubt we will ever see a Roland product which competes directly and is as feature laden as an AXeFX II Ultra and MFC-101 foot controller combo (at similar $3K price of the  Fractal Audio Rig).
http://shop.fractalaudio.com/

Roland Corp feels they really got burned with the VG-99+FC-300 combo - this $1800 system was highly misunderstood in the marketplace and did not earn profit for Roland.
( also the fact it was released at the same time as a global economic recession added to the limited sales for Roland VG-99/
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=62.0
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-vg99

We all owe the 2011 GR-55 sales, (which continues to sell  very well ) for the existence of new 2014 Roland/Boss GK 13 pin products like the Boss GP-10 .

Roland management observes that too many features that drive up the product's MSRP cost equates to a product which the typical guitarist can not comprehend  - thus the current trend of "dumbing down" the Roland / Boss product line.

And most under 30 year olds in management positions today consider lack of 5 pin MIDI ports a Victory- since youngsters think "MIDI is Dead", and earn a pay raise by saving the $3 cost per unit by removing all  5 pin MIDI I/O jacks from modern  M.I. gear. 
     

supernicd

QuoteI doubt we will ever see a Roland product which competes directly and is as feature laden as an AXeFX II Ultra and MFC-101 foot controller combo (at similar $3K price of the  Fractal Audio Rig).

I hope you're wrong but fear you may be right.  I have to wonder if the VG-99 was too expensive and complicated to do well in mass production.  Compared to other high end products discussed on this site, those seem to be produced on a much smaller scale.  To try out a KPA, as far as I know, I'd have to drive a couple hundred miles to Sweetwater, and I live in a very large metropolitan area.  To try out an AxeFX II - well, I don't think there's anywhere I can try that out short of finding a friend who has one.  I think at one time you had to order one and then wait for them to run the next batch - might still be that way.

Hopefully it's just a temporary reaction to the economy though.  Roland also discontinued their flagship keyboard series (Fantom G) with no new flagship model.  They only seem to continue to make a flagship V-Drum set, and they don't seem to have much close competition in that department.  I couldn't blame them a bit for not creating new flagships in an economy where few could afford them.  But man, I'd love to see the next flagship VGuitar model someday...
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#3
QuoteHopefully it's just a temporary reaction to the economy though.  Roland also discontinued their flagship keyboard series (Fantom G) with no new flagship model.  They only seem to continue to make a flagship V-Drum set, and they don't seem to have much close competition in that department.  I couldn't blame them a bit for not creating new flagships in an economy where few could afford them.  But man, I'd love to see the next flagship VGuitar model someday...

(Sadly) highest tech Guitar hardware in the future will all look like this:




QuoteI have to wonder if the VG-99 was too expensive and complicated to do well in mass production.  Compared to other high end products discussed on this site, those seem to be produced on a much smaller scale.

Its a fact that Cliff Chase can design, build and manufacture the AXE-FX II and MFC-101 at $3K in limited numbers and still achieve a profit to keep him and his small Fractal Audio Staff employed.  Cliff Chase and Chris Kemper understand the high end market much better than Roland.

I highly doubt Roland will ever deliver a new product that directly competes with current products by Fractal or Kemper, because the limited production numbers, the R&D expense and more importantly: a staff of fully trained SERVICE AND AFTER THE SALE  SUPPORT for a product as comprehensive and high tech as the Axe-FX-II + MFC-101 (like the VG-99+FC-300) does not exist, or aligns with Roland's current Corporate philosophy in 2014 . Remember its a new ball game in 2014 and Roland Founder  Ikutaro Kakehashi who often took risks motivated by his passion to raise the technology bar has retired last year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Corporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikutaro_Kakehashi

http://www.guitarmessenger.com/interviews/cliff-chase-interview-fractal-audio/

Its also a generational thing, older baby boomers still dont think to use google search and be self -taught on latest tech, I cant even attract any principals involved in Roland  / Boss to actively participate in our VGuitarForums.

By comparison here is the Axe-FX Wiki - highly educational and full of info
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_II_Wiki_Home



 

Jim Williams

Yes "E" I tend to agree.... at the moment I am shopping around for a smaller laptop or tablet that will do what my Dell workstation laptop does and be small enough to mount to my mic stand.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

Elantric

#5
The good news, forget paying full price, because gently used 2012 Macbooks are available on Ebay - and they are my preferred platform for sonic mayhem now and in future 

ZenSonic

I would not suggest Dell's answer to the Macbook Pro the Dell XPS14Z..I have one..it is very well constructed but keeps crashing and has issues with the USB ports and SD card reader. Then again it could be Windows 8...another headache IMO. Next time I am going for a Macbook Air.

supernicd

I don't know.  I definitely enjoy both a MBP and a PC in the home studio environment.  I carried a laptop on stage with me as an integral part of my rig for several years, at a time when no one (on the local scene anyway) was even thinking about it.  I don't do it anymore (though I do bring an iPad and use a few synths on it).

There is really still something to be said for rugged, purpose-built hardware, controllers, and operating systems for the stage performer.

I will now return to chasing kids off-a- muh' lawn. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Vade

So we're all a bit ticked off that Boss didn't include class compliant USB and MIDI but the things the GP-10 brings to the table are still compelling; the alt tunings and guitar models especially. I'll probably be going with my iConnectMIDI4+ and ios for now but either a Macbook or a PC is in my sights down the road. Ios brings hundreds of high quality music apps to the table but I don't need hundreds; I only need a few high quality programs to fill the gaps in my rig. It turns out that my Sonar X3 DAW has been putting loads of effort into multi-touch control complete with pinch and zoom. My desktop PC and Scarlett 2i2 present no latency problems I find problematic and so I'm still tempted to get a large multi-touch display and build myself a small portable (but powerful) dedicated music PC. Perhaps augment this with a control pad or at least a good stylus. My mobile rig has room for such a system but I hesitate for the obvious reasons. Some folks use a PC live and love it; most don't. Some folks use Sonar X3 live and love it; most don't. Is the problem that PC's can't be made to work or that the right combination of software, gear, and style is rare? Will Windows 10 improve the situation? Will Sonar improve its live capacities? Is Apple's superior native handling of inputs more valuable than a working multi-touch? I wish I had fewer questions and more answers.
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Kevin M

I'm a long-time user of Cakewalk/Sonar. The latest, X3, is rock solid - especially combined with my Lenovo W520. No problems whatsoever. Having said that, I use a Mac 70% of the time and prefer it (it's Unix based, so I may be biased. :-) ). I would recommend a Mac-based setup over PC simply because it works well and it's done elegantly. I haven't moved over my music to Mac because it's tough to change DAW's when there are multiple people involved and I have roughly 15 years worth of Pro Audio/Sonar projects to deal with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

aliensporebomb

And the funny thing is:

The major label artists that I know had VG-99s:

-Michael Stearns
-Vernon Reid
-Adrian Belew
-Robert Fripp
-Frank Gambale


Belew was using his to create a "second guitarist" for his band with the second COSM path. 
He also used it to do dobro sounds in altered tunings.

Reid seems to use his as the control center of his elaborate rig

I watched Stearns use his as a way of triggering a bunch of rack synths that he would mix in with the VG for a massive, magical sound during Ambicon and reportedly tried to get Jeff Pearce interested in the 99.

Stearns at Ambicon:


Gambale uses his to facilitate a custom tuning he is championing.

Fripp had one but he last had it up for sale last I heard - he's gone back to his VG-8 as his main hex guitar processor. 

I'm guessing none of the artists except Reid really 'got it' - even Belew didn't go as far as he could have.   Stearns did a bang up job at Ambicon with his.

The GP-10, if it sells enough, might be catalyst for a new VG someday.  But it seems Roland really is going for less expensive things that don't do as much more for simplicity's sake than anything else.

The whole AxeFX thing I believe is further boosted because Fractal is a small company riding the "boutique" image in some ways.  Roland is a big company and as such some players don't like them just because they are big.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Vade

@ Kevin

So have you been using Sonar in live situations Kevin? Some people suggest that the Matrix view might lend itself to a live setting and I've just begun exploring that this week. Seems a bit limited for live use so far but I've very little experience with it. I know Sonar can trigger my backing tracks plus the usual Z3TA+ and FTP synths to ambient effect that's pleasing to me. Getting control of all the various MIDI paths is still a work in progress. That said, the least expensive route for me now is ios since I've an iConnectMIDI4+, a mini, a 5s, and an iPad 3 but then I'd probably want to go with a Raspberry Pi rig for my GP-10. My impression is that a Mac book or a PC would be  more powerful and stable than such an ios system. Since I already own Sonar X3 producer I could pick up a multi-touch PC rig for a fair bit less than a Macbook and all new software: no? Is an Apple rig really worth the price premium?

@Aliensporebomb

The VG-99 is actually probably a less expensive option at this point than the PC path and it does seem like quite a powerful option as well. On the other hand, I already have dedicated music hardware in my VL3 and GP-10. Since I'm looking to add a synth/sample/control leg into my rig doesn't the flexibility and future utility of a PC/Mac make some sense at this point compared to the VG-99?
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Kevin M

Quote from: Vade on October 06, 2014, 08:16:08 PM
@ Kevin

So have you been using Sonar in live situations Kevin? Some people suggest that the Matrix view might lend itself to a live setting and I've just begun exploring that this week. Seems a bit limited for live use so far but I've very little experience with it. I know Sonar can trigger my backing tracks plus the usual Z3TA+ and FTP synths to ambient effect that's pleasing to me. Getting control of all the various MIDI paths is still a work in progress. That said, the least expensive route for me now is ios since I've an iConnectMIDI4+, a mini, a 5s, and an iPad 3 but then I'd probably want to go with a Raspberry Pi rig for my GP-10. My impression is that a Mac book or a PC would be  more powerful and stable than such an ios system. Since I already own Sonar X3 producer I could pick up a multi-touch PC rig for a fair bit less than a Macbook and all new software: no? Is an Apple rig really worth the price premium?



I've only used it for recording - but I've thrown a lot at it with number of tracks and synths inserted. You might check the Cakewalk forum for advice on running it live. I'm not sure how to advise you for live setting, except to say...always have a plan B!  :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

joo1

Translator :)
Not well, that Roland is doing such a policy. I'm not a great guitarist - we are many :) I play in small theaters and clubs to chop, and connected to Boss GT 100 + Roland GR 55 in one - it is EXCELLENT.
Comfortable, takes up little space on stage and in the car.
Boss Gp 10 of controllability GT - Super!
Roland GR 55 with added two pedals to change his bank EXTRA
Now, to change the bank and preset the GR 55 is tap dancing :)
Okay, enough whining. Regards and sorry for the language.
The question-is it understandable?

supernicd

#14
Quote from: joo1 on October 07, 2014, 02:47:57 AM
Translator :)
Not well, that Roland is doing such a policy. I'm not a great guitarist - we are many :) I play in small theaters and clubs to chop, and connected to Boss GT 100 + Roland GR 55 in one - it is EXCELLENT.
Comfortable, takes up little space on stage and in the car.
Boss Gp 10 of controllability GT - Super!
Roland GR 55 with added two pedals to change his bank EXTRA
Now, to change the bank and preset the GR 55 is tap dancing :)
Okay, enough whining. Regards and sorry for the language.
The question-is it understandable?

I am not quite sure I understand the question.

The GR-55 and GT-100 should work well together.  You should be able to send patch changes messages from the GT-100 to the GR-55.  You could connect them with 5-pin MIDI cables and use the program change map function.  So for example changing patch on the GT-100 would cause the GR-55 to also change to the corresponding patch you've mapped out.

Mrchevy made a video about how to do that:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10567.msg76454#msg76454

The GP-10 may be a different story.  To control it from the GT-100, I think you'd need to also involve a computer.  Some are using inexpensive and small Raspberry PI computers to add the the missing MIDI to the GP-10 with reported success.  There is a thread about that here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11998.0

Or did you want to connect all 3 together?  Boss GT-100 + Boss GP-10 + Roland GR-55?

QuoteFripp had one but he last had it up for sale last I heard - he's gone back to his VG-8 as his main hex guitar processor. 

I have to admit, that fascinates me, partially because it is Fripp and partially because it's not the first time I've heard of someone preferring the hex rig that is 2 generations older.  There must be something fairly unique and special about the VG-8?
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

aliensporebomb

I believe Fripp stuck with it because the majority of his programming efforts were done on the VG-8.  I believe he never got that far into the VG-99.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

joo1

Yes. Boss GT and Roland GR 55 work together perfectly, but I would like to have it in one housing - sorry :)

Brak(E)man

the 8 is easier in many ways and has some qualitys that VG 88 and 99 doesn't,  but all in all the 99 is the thing.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

supernicd

Quote from: joo1 on October 07, 2014, 05:40:26 AM
Yes. Boss GT and Roland GR 55 work together perfectly, but I would like to have it in one housing - sorry :)

We would all like that.  Unfortunately that product does not exist. :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

joo1

I propose to give a strong signal to the Boss-Roland, so as not to obstruct guitarists of life, and finally did a mega guitar processor. I know this is a shot in 10. :-* :-* :-* :-*

supernicd

Quote from: joo1 on October 07, 2014, 10:34:45 AM
I propose to give a strong signal to the Boss-Roland, so as not to obstruct guitarists of life, and finally did a mega guitar processor. I know this is a shot in 10. :-* :-* :-* :-*

+1 for that.  Maybe that makes it a 2 in 10 shot? :)
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Elantric on October 06, 2014, 09:26:43 AM
And most under 30 year olds in management positions today consider lack of 5 pin MIDI ports a good thing - since youngsters think "MIDI is Dead", and earn a pay raise by saving the $3 cost per unit by removing all  5 pin MIDI I/O jacks from M.I gear.   

No worries!  That's what the "youngsters" thought about tube amps as well, until sanity prevailed.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

QuoteThat's what the "youngsters" thought about tube amps as well, until sanity prevailed.

In the late '60's many recording studios sold off / traded their tube gear for solid state gear to save monthly air conditioning bills

http://www.stereosociety.com/recordingstudio.shtml


ffata

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 07, 2014, 04:57:34 AM
I believe Fripp stuck with it because the majority of his programming efforts were done on the VG-8.  I believe he never got that far into the VG-99.
Fripp hasn't an 8 or an 88 in a number of years. He has stuck with the Roland GP-100.
But, he has had an Axe-FX in his rig for some time now.
http://www.papabear.com/tours/crim14/crim14_4.htm (scroll down a bit to see his gear)

FWIW, check Tony Levin's KC tour pages, lotsa shots of rehearsals and gear if you're into that sorta stuff. ;)
http://www.papabear.com/tours/crim14/crim14_index.htm

aliensporebomb

Fripp actually has TWO AxeFX in his rig now.  So I think he's sold!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.