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VGuitar Central => User Projects / Blogs => Topic started by: Elantric on November 23, 2011, 08:01:10 AM

Title: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on November 23, 2011, 08:01:10 AM
I find  the audience reacts to the visual appeal of you as a performer, and the instrument you play, and its mass cultural acceptance for the type of music you are performing. But when they hear a guitar synth playing sax , if they cant figure out who is playing the "virtual Saxophone" solo within 3 seconds, they tend to get bored swiftly then head back to the bar for another beer - figuring its Karaoke band

In my case,   since the Variax Acoustic 700 "looks" like an acoustic guitar, the crowd accepts and even enjoys its sound at my local winery acoustic gigs.

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dv247.com%2Fassets%2Fproducts%2F22432_l.jpg&hash=ca2e2d3fa14b59009a537ac3f7960dc11e904b47)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snapagogo.com%2Fuploads%2Fsource%2F2862013%2F1381789988_1155115376_1383230_10200763916836470_504047435_n.jpg&hash=de55147633a09a3d7ece606376169c5ec2fe427c)

Despite that fact that as a guitar player, this solid body guitar feels and plays more like Leslie West's 1957 Les Paul Jr than any Martin Guitar.
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc1.zzounds.com%2Fmedia%2Fquality%2C85%2FVariax_Acoustic_700_Close-e90b73e6dc203fc7bb9f981ec395e122.jpg&hash=1f885de57aaa2b51449258a95bffe3229139efec)

Conversely,  I could be playing the  exact gig and the exact same music and sound 90% the same - when i play my Tyler Variax JTV-69 "Super Strat", (set to its Martin D-28 DSP modeling preset)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl6c-acdn.line6.net%2Fdata%2F6%2F0a06434c8b8d52396b0d76cd0%2Fimage%2Fpng%2Ffile_r17408.png&hash=5dff96084d6647f4bf91570df30c75b126aa0684)

but the same crowd will not react the same, since they figure I'm playing an electric guitar, their eyes scan the stage for "Where's the Acoustic Guitarists?" - and most folks see a Strat and walk away figuring I'm performing to Backing tracks - and not actually playing "live".

I live in Wine country, and many gigs must have an ethnic  "celtic" acoustic flavor - even if I'm playing "unplugged" surf instrumental tunes.

All I know is, at the outdoor patio "wine tasting room / cork sniffer" gigs,  The tip jar fills faster when i show up with what appears to be an acoustic guitar - or other "ethnic" looking instrument

Godin A-10
(https://media.musiciansfriend.com/is/image/MMGS7/J13572000001000-02-500x500.jpg)

If I break out the Super Strat at these "sedate gigs", the person who booked the band will be upset, and  grimace and hold their ears - BEFORE I play a single note , figuring I'll do something stupid like play a high volume sex pistols  / ramones  / metalica medley with my Marshall stack I have yet to retrieve from my Van.

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.preservationsound.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2FConcept1Delta_1974-1024x745.jpg&hash=cc8fee1cdf557b94989ef60fd56932800484c2c2)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kh9M7RCTX1UdXGHvhHrl31xcWvG9lHhQ/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on November 23, 2011, 09:32:33 AM
Elantric - that's a really interesting topic for a thread: how people react to your equipment. 

Somehow if you play an acoustic thru all these gizmos you're perceived as "a musician" and if you play electric guitar thru gizmos you're either a mad scientist or a crazy guy playing thru cranked marshalls in a dank basement. 

They're listening with their eyes.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on November 23, 2011, 09:55:27 AM
QuoteThey're listening with their eyes.

Precisely - and is the absolutely rule #1 for success at any live performance
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: maxdaddy on November 23, 2011, 10:50:53 AM
My GK-equipped Variax Acoustic is received much better at the solo/duo gigs than my GK-equipped strat style guitar. I've also found that the opposite is true in a full-band setting.

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on November 23, 2011, 12:16:51 PM
When I play new age festival type gigs, my friend Amy who is into that scene tells me my GK equipped strat goes over well because it has a sparkle finish which new age types apparently see as a sign of some kind of mystical importance.

I thought she was joking but she was totally dead serious!

I can't be totally sure about that but I wonder.  I have gotten more gigs in that type of environment since I got the sparkle strat and I used to use a shred machine to do the same job.

I wonder how a GK equipped acoustic would go over?

So serious, that Variax 700 is a Solidbody guitar?  Seriously? 
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: germanicus on November 23, 2011, 12:38:29 PM
QuoteSo serious, that Variax 700 is a Solidbody guitar?  Seriously?


Yes, it has an extremely shallow soundhole.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: fuzzfactory on November 23, 2011, 01:31:24 PM
"figuring I'll do something stupid like play a sex pistols  / ramones  / metalica medley"

i see nothing stupid in said medley all great bands  ;D

on the other hand i play gigs that feature "dj's" ....house / techno / dub step etc and they see me a silver sparkled strat and a laptop and the kids go WTF...then i drop some knowledge on them and they go WTF you are doing that with a guitar?!?!?

it is fun to funk with their minds hehehehe

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: vanceg on November 23, 2011, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: germanicus on November 23, 2011, 12:38:29 PM
Yes, it has an extremely shallow soundhole.

So do I
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: technoteacher on November 23, 2011, 04:25:04 PM
I wish the Godin Jazz box was a bit less expensive. It has a classic jazz look but it does acoustic and GK as well. My pickup sticks out like a sore thumb on my Joe Pass Emperor.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on November 23, 2011, 05:15:02 PM
"extremely shallow soundhole."
Thats a great name for my new band! ;0


QuoteSo serious, that Variax 700 is a Solidbody guitar?  Seriously? 
Yes

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guitar-museum.com%2Fuploads%2Fguitar%2F31%2F260165958831-1.jpg&hash=eeda316c1b9fd53316c4990b6eca1373c4564754)
(https://www.bosepro.community/g/portable/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/18197182791970184/filePointer/18056445293433289/fodoid/18056445293433288/imageType/LARGE/inlineImage/true/VaxGK.jpg)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vettaville.nl%2Fdiv%2FVariax-Acoustic-700-sm%2520horizontal.jpg&hash=54b2c8c63d96ca060c6947213adae3964056c3dc)


With the Variax Acoustc 700,  the Audience "sees" an Acoustic guitar, and automatically assumes they will hear soft new age natural tones, yet as the performer when I close my eyes, this guitar feels exactly like I'm playing a nice 1957 LP Junior with my favorite Neck profile (see below) - so I'm right at home.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0956/3980/products/front-banner-1600_900_1600x900.png?v=1556905047)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fg-ecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Fmusical_instruments%2Fdetail-page%2FB001ONBCYA-1.jpg&hash=cb9cf22d09ae8fe80ef8cd3056b79edfff1886d0)

 (https://www.vintageandrare.com/uploads/products/35996/1127725/original.jpg?1643205536)
Thought of adding a Bridge PU , make it more a bit like a Washurn Sammy Hager
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Now_And_Then on November 24, 2011, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: technoteacher on November 23, 2011, 04:25:04 PM
I wish the Godin Jazz box was a bit less expensive. It has a classic jazz look but it does acoustic and GK as well. My pickup sticks out like a sore thumb on my Joe Pass Emperor.

Have you got a picture of it up anywhere? I have an Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II (which I will assume is what you have) and I also have that little extender-mounting ring that attaches to the pickup bezel - which I got from UK and the price of which, last time I looked, had increased precipitously although that could be because of macro-economic reasons. I haven't yet installed it. I'd be interested to see what it looks like installed, although I want a few customizations done on mine: fixed bridge, or pin the stock floating bridge, new speed knobs, and of course a GK mounted. I am not sure about the best location for the GK control housing if I keep the stock tailpiece, which I kinda like.

GK on an archtop is actually is a bit of a problem: even though this one is not as loud as an acoustic guitar, it is not exactly silent, and even wearing headphones that provide very good isolation, the sound that leaks into the headphones is enough to make it very difficult to get a good idea of the sound that is being outputted by whatever GK-compatible device or devices that I am using.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: fokof on November 25, 2011, 09:26:50 AM
Quote from: Elantric on November 23, 2011, 08:01:10 AM
I find  the audience reacts to the visual appeal of your instrument,

People listen with their eyes and their VISA cards too.
( in audiophile circle , think cables  8)  )

I play in a small trio and play Corpo gigs ,loungy/jazzy gig , my setup is well received (fretless+VB99) but in my "very hard rock" band , that same setup is seen as an extra terrestrial thing.  ;)

Me likes it !


Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: noirclassic on November 25, 2011, 08:48:58 PM
I play with VG-88 and a GT-5 while the 15 last years and now gr-55 with GT-10. But use unoften preamp model, i have two valve head for electric guitar sound.

Nevertheless when people seen i played with that stuff, there's always one to said i sound cold and plastic "i hear valve missed" ... well, how to tell you ...
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: atonal on November 26, 2011, 06:51:15 AM
Oh how true,I myself is guilty of this also if i'm seeing a blues band and the guitar player is playing a shredder or has a wagon train pedal board I think this isn't going to work and most times I'm right but the same band with a guitar player with a beat up old tweed dlx and a strat,lp or 335 and I'm thinking  umm I'll give this a listen..You all know where I'm going with that..The past year i have been doing solo shows at nursing homes and day care centers using a dreadnought and an Ibanez am73t in seafoam green,there's not a show that the Ibanez doesn't steal the show and get many comments on how beautiful the guitar is!!!got a Godin LGxt coming and ordered the cognac burst for this reason,most shows I'll be using it for will be more conservative types and for all the other situations gonna have to figure it out!Music is an aural and vision show ,look at Kiss!!!!Just had to get my two bits in!!
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: rocksmoot on December 12, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
I'm guilty of this myself. However hard I try, I just can't avoid being human.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: HoosierMan on January 16, 2012, 01:53:27 PM
Quote from: atonal on November 26, 2011, 06:51:15 AM
The past year i have been doing solo shows at nursing homes and day care centers using a dreadnought and an Ibanez am73t in seafoam green,there's not a show that the Ibanez doesn't steal the show and get many comments on how beautiful the guitar is!!!

That's interesting.  I also play solo shows in nursing homes and residential centers and I have been using GR-55 with my natural finish Epiphone Dot and with the GK-3 added I think it makes it look even cooler.  I have received comments too about "what a beautiful guitar".  LOL
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: ecca on January 17, 2012, 10:54:17 AM
Great thread.
I had a Gibson Les Paul De-luxe for many years to which was fitted a GK2 pick-up running a Roland GR09 and a VG8 linked with a US200 switch.
I remember one gig where the first half was principally  VG8 guitars, all sorts, acoustic, Gretschs, 12 strings, you name it.
A bloke came up to me and said knowingly, " You can't beat the sound of a Gibson ".
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Frank on January 20, 2012, 03:16:17 AM
10-12 years ago I used to be in a band playing live drum and bass and electronica using my VG-8 and Tom Anderson superstrat.
The drummer had some V-Drums and a sampler and the bass player had a V-Bass rig as well.
There were no conventional guitar, bass or drum sounds, all electronic; in my experience it confused the hell out of an audience when I was playing sub 'hoover' bass drops and TB-303 type sounds along with weird string pads.
There was a clear look of 'where's the keyboard player or computer' on their faces.
It was great; listening with their eyes is very true.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: IanRamos on January 15, 2013, 04:55:33 PM
amazingly important topic , that weirdly , i had never seen before in a music forum ...

listen kids , if you are starting now to play live , keep that in mind , cause it's gonna save you A LOT of bad gigs :
people actually do listen MORE with their eyes than with their ears .

i started playing guitar in hard rock and heavy metal bands , so i always loved my super strats , Ibanez , Jackson ... i use to have and love lots of those guitars .

you know who didn't love them at all ? my audience when i started playing for a living (meaning , not my own songs with some heavy band , but covers for tourist , wich is where the money is here in Spain )

man , it took me so many sad nights to realice why the people hated my performance most of the times even before starting playing , while others less talented singers and guitarrist where doing killing gigs every night .

didn't really got the support of the audience untill i did surrender , sold all my axes and got me a couple Strats and Teles ... they just see a familiar guitar , something that they saw before on the tv and totally relax , i even get lots of compliments on my "vintage" tone ... haha   if they knew that my sound is totally digital !!   ( gr-55 and Hd500 straight to mixer )

just my 2 cents on that .
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 15, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
IanRamos,

Interesting to read your experiences there in Spain!
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Piing on January 15, 2013, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: IvanLozano on January 15, 2013, 04:55:33 PM
you know who didn't love them at all ? my audience when i started playing for a living (meaning , not my own songs with some heavy band , but covers for tourist , wich is where the money is here in Spain )

Hola Ian,

Exactly the same happened to me when I played my Charvel Fire Cracked (the one you can see on my avatar) with the summer-gigs cover band (in Spanish called "orquesta") playing not only for tourist, but also at the "rural Spain". I sold it and bought a sunburst American Deluxe Stratocaster, and after that some people loved me.  But not everybody, because I still used the VG8 for acoustic guitars.

BTW: I deeply regret of having sold that Charvel. Now they are a rarity!

Saludos desde Bangkok,  :)

Manuel

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: photonutalan1 on January 15, 2013, 06:37:16 PM
Thank you for introducing this thread, Elantric; it's sooo true! The experiences of others is fascinating, too! There's a very good reason for the existence of the wonderful Variax Acoustic!! ;D Methinks Godin knows something about this too.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 15, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
Quote from: Piing on January 15, 2013, 06:14:39 PM
Hola Ivan,

Exactly the same happened to me when I played my Charvel Fire Cracked (the one you can see on my avatar) with the summer-gigs cover band (in Spanish called "orquesta") playing not only for tourist, but also at the "rural Spain". I sold it and bought a sunburst American Deluxe Stratocaster, and after that some people loved me.  But not everybody, because I still used the VG8 for acoustic guitars.

BTW: I deeply regret of having sold that Charvel. Now they are a rarity!

Saludos desde Bangkok,  :)

Manuel

Seriously?  I sold this back in 1998 because I wanted a neckthru soloist with two octave fretboard [I still have that one]:

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmadsound.dyndns.org%2FTodd1a.jpg&hash=b83ade2fddbde02ea0528933158035b564aee827)

It was actually a great guitar but I had kind of worn it out thru 10 years of heavy playing. 

It took quite a bit to get them to accept that guitar as part trade on the Soloist.  And that Soloist does have a GK3 on it!
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Rhcole on January 15, 2013, 10:25:14 PM
OK, all very interesting!

What I'm wondering about is the reaction to lots of floor pedals and other electronic gear. I'm less concerned about the guitars than I am looking like I'm flying an airplane.
Any of you had to deal with audiences reacting (especially in your wine country etc. type of gigs) to the technology itself?
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Piing on January 15, 2013, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: aliensporebomb on January 15, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
Seriously?  I sold this back in 1998 because I wanted a neckthru soloist with two octave fretboard [I still have that one]:

He he  :D Here I am:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/46804116/Me%20and%20My%20Charvel.jpg)
That was with a Progressive Rock band (a perfect fit for the look of the Charvel). My playing skills were not very good at that time, but everybody praised me, probably because they listened with the eyes...    ;D
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 16, 2013, 05:54:50 AM
Quote from: Piing on January 15, 2013, 11:44:38 PM
He he  :D Here I am:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/46804116/Me%20and%20My%20Charvel.jpg)
That was with a Progressive Rock band (a perfect fit for the look of the Charvel). My playing skills were not very good at that time, but everybody praised me, probably because they listened with the eyes...    ;D

Same here - we were a progrock outfit and my ambition was probably farther out than my skills at the time. 

We did a 16 track demo back in 1990 and never really finished it but here was one of the tracks from those sessions:
http://madsound.dyndns.org/hydra/Nightmare.mp3 (http://madsound.dyndns.org/hydra/Nightmare.mp3)

The band was called "Hydravian":

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmadsound.dyndns.org%2Fbandposters%2Ffernandos1.jpg&hash=0da05b42245d5b69a90357c449507b7fa07d1fdd)


Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 16, 2013, 05:57:11 AM
Quote from: Rhcole on January 15, 2013, 10:25:14 PM
OK, all very interesting!

What I'm wondering about is the reaction to lots of floor pedals and other electronic gear. I'm less concerned about the guitars than I am looking like I'm flying an airplane.
Any of you had to deal with audiences reacting (especially in your wine country etc. type of gigs) to the technology itself?

Good call.  At the time I had a JC120, a 3 space rack cabinet with 3 rack units, a Chandler tube driver, a massive midi footpedal controller for the rackunits and one of the rack units had a 3 button controller, and a 3 button controller for the JC-120.  Lets just say it was like a spaceship up there.

I don't think the audience cared but sometimes they wondered where the "keyboard player" was - because some of my rack units could create faux keyboard sounds.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: IanRamos on January 16, 2013, 11:47:18 AM
OK, all very interesting!

What I'm wondering about is the reaction to lots of floor pedals and other electronic gear. I'm less concerned about the guitars than I am looking like I'm flying an airplane.
Any of you had to deal with audiences reacting (especially in your wine country etc. type of gigs) to the technology itself?


well in my experience the audience don't care about what they don't see ... i only use 3 pedals live , but i could use 10.000 and they will never notice , so it's all good .

que tal Piing , it's a shame that u had to get rid of the charvel , it really looked ... i don't know , it looked heavy metal !!
but as they say ... no pain no gain .    :-\
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 19, 2013, 07:05:31 AM
All I know is you'll definetely get better audience response playing one of these:
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmadsound.dyndns.org%2Fguitars%2Fvgstrat%2Fbody.JPG&hash=da5ca5f6cb3245b4e9d5dc0b54f8fe11072445c9)

Than one of these:
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmadsound.dyndns.org%2Fzoraxe2.jpg&hash=60b2c66175791d0beeb5d53d21a93a078b91884e)

Ivan said something like when the audience sees something "familiar" they relax and kind of know what to expect.   If it's a metal band, well, a shred machine or a weird Zoraxe guitar might work with a half stack. 

But a strat or les paul is what the average audience member expects to see at a "regular" rock show.  "Deviate from the norm" too much and you could end up having an unwanted response.  How weird from a genre that was supposed to be about individuality.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 19, 2013, 07:23:40 AM
It also depends a lot on who else is on stage. Ive been in the support backing band for an atractive female vocalist and been rendered essentially invisible to the audience.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 19, 2013, 02:30:41 PM
I can't believe it - guys, watch this video!  He is TOTALLY illustrating the concept in this thread.

He had an amp maker take the guts of....a Roland Cube 80 XL  amp....

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.roland.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fgallery%2Fcube-80xl_angle_gal.jpg&hash=0c434f60abfda924217ab6423ef2dfa4a33a963e)


and put it into these custom cabinets and.....seriously watch!

Watch this video, all of it but particularly watch the point at 15 minutes "he says "they're listening with their eyes"".

Chappers Mystery Amp Challenge - The Monkey Lord's Circadian Chronicle 18th Jan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSmO-9OmcA#ws)

Amazing!
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 19, 2013, 03:03:03 PM
I'm a fan of Mr. Chappers  - he gets good tone, and I trust his opinion.

Interesting confirmation I'm not nuts!



I've been recommending and using a Roland Cube 80XL as my main  "grab and go gig" Amp for the past couple years.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6471.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6471.0)
To the un-initiated, This video makes an Excellent demo of precisely what Roland COSM Amp Modelling is capable of !

Chappers Mystery Amp Challenge - The Monkey Lord's Circadian Chronicle 18th Jan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSmO-9OmcA#ws)




Re "Listening with their eyes" - observe closely that Les Paul uses showmanship to make it look like he's doing live looping in the 1970's  - but was actually performing to pre-recorded segments of a Cassette tape in a remote control operated Nakamichi Dragon Cassette deck with guitar mounted controls.

Les Paul and his little black box! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IDPZWIVnuY#)

http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/71/lot/27947/ (http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/71/lot/27947/)

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.julienslive.com%2Fimages%2Flot%2F99352%2F2%2Flot99352.jpg&hash=faa5bb2258ae7760992d43714be2b50dc3c8ca1d)
Les Paul showing off his Les Paulverizer! 
A custom switching device created by Paul in 1956 to remotely control tape machines hidden off-stage enabling Paul to play along with a selection of pre-recorded backing tracks. Paul initially created the name "Paulverizer" as a joke but later created this device to allow he and Mary Ford to perform with backing tracks during live performances. Together with extension cable.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: thebrushwithin on January 22, 2013, 06:42:02 AM
The eyes have it....my best advice is also to have the"proper" looking guitar for the venue, keep your rig orderly(cables, etc.), and the most important part is to SMILE!!! It gives you an amazing advantage, before a note is played... ;D
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Piing on January 22, 2013, 08:42:23 PM
Quote from: thebrushwithin on January 22, 2013, 06:42:02 AMand the most important part is to SMILE!!! It gives you an amazing advantage, before a note is played... ;D

I agree. Although in certain metal styles it seems like the unfriendly face of the musicians is part of the show  ;D

If there were a competition of The Ever-Smiling Guitarist, I guess who will be #1:
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fguitar-licks-n-tricks.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F03%2FEddieVanHalen.jpg&hash=86b56c8713a6ffdc33f85260c112d07c99bc3239)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: PD FX on January 23, 2013, 03:13:23 AM
Yes, they are listening with their eyes..
And you can use "musical crossdressing" as a flavour in your stageperformance..

I remember a real nice gig I had with my trio, and I played an acoustic Richwood with a VG88 just straight into the PA.. what struck me was the ability to actually make a musical journey, using different textures. this was a sunday afternoon gig, so it was kind of mellow.. I got feedback from the people watching, because they where amazed by the sounds coming out of this acoustic guitar..
Prettty sure they would've been LESS amazed, when I had played an electric guitar.

So it works both ways, a musician should be aware of that. Everybody knows these hilarious distorted ukulele solo's: again, same principle, musical crossdressing..
When I play piano on my guitar, I know it's not piano, but act like it, and that makes it kind of a piano parody, whitch in turn sounds cool.. that's the whole point: act your instrument.

The oldest records from musical crossdressing are from the Mills Brothers, they sang their trumpets. they were hilariously good and very populair in the '30's of the last century.

On amps: the most marvelous sound I ever had on stage, was a marlboro transistor amp. cheap,small open cabinet. dont know why, just sounded marvelous





Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: LPHovercraft on January 23, 2013, 03:43:40 AM
Quote from: Guitarpolson on January 23, 2013, 03:13:23 AM
On amps: the most marvelous sound I ever had on stage, was a marlboro transistor amp. cheap,small open cabinet. dont know why, just sounded marvelous

Expectation cross-dressing. You look at it and think it would be crazy to sound good. When it rocks you're pleasantly surprised.

I use the same logic when on a date, but have recently learned that wearing my underwear on the outside of my pants and referring to myself as Batman is a bridge too far.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: LPHovercraft on January 23, 2013, 04:19:33 AM
Quote from: Elantric on January 19, 2013, 07:23:40 AM
It also depends a lot on who else is on stage. Ive been in the support backing band for an atractive female vocalist and been rendered essentially invisible to the audience.

On a more serious point than my previous post - I was just having dinner last night with a good friend from Sweden who plays a LOT of solo guitar gigs in his home country. He's a bit of an old-school tone junky with the ironic twist if having been the 'brains' behind the Virtual Guitarist VSTi plugins distributed by Steinberg.

Anyway, we talked about stage antics (particularly as he has a huge catalog of classic British and American pop/rock committed to memory) and how much the audience reacts to the visual impression. He says that things go 'a bit smoother' if he stops to tune his instrument every few songs. It's almost like you have to give the audience a chance to understand what you're doing.

Then he said "and of course it helps to  have a singer that will chat up the audience while you're changing setups. And if the singer is a pretty female, so much the better."

Like it or not, stagecraft matters.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 07:41:54 AM
Quote
Then he said "and of course it helps to  have a singer that will chat up the audience while you're changing setups. And if the singer is a pretty female, so much the better."

Like it or not, stagecraft matters.

I once interviewed Roger Steen of "The Tubes"  - and he said when they started they were the combined members of two bands (The Beans & Red White and Blues Band) - they sounded good but nobody showed up to the gigs, so they decided to "Ramp things up a notch" and hired  female exotic dancers, and the rest is history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tubes)
   
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 08:07:41 AM
QuoteOn amps: the most marvelous sound I ever had on stage, was a marlboro transistor amp. cheap,small open cabinet. dont know why, just sounded marvelous

In the 1970's I was living in Echo Park near LA, and my room mate "Kimble" was Randy Rhoads "roadie".
In the late 70's I saw Quiet Riot at the Starwood a few times, my Rocket 88 band even opened for them once.

When I assessed Randy Rhoads rig, I  was surprised.

This was the Amp head - a mid 1970's Peavey Standard Solid State Head

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.preservationsound.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FPeavey_standard_amp_19731.jpg&hash=a292977dd2bb5d78d7b2a441184810bdd2d66432)

This was his cab - an Early 1970's Ampeg V2 Cab loaded with Four 12" Altec Lansing Speakers. its a big cab! Was popular with Rolling Stones circa 1972
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elderly.com%2Fitems%2Fimages%2F130U%2F130U-5172_front.jpg&hash=2446e9b9dbd8819a977136ae2e00618fa27a5339)

This was his "tone" box - an MXR Distortion+ - All knobs set to full clockwise Max, always engaged 100% of the time - sits on top of the amp.
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa248.e.akamai.net%2Forigin-cdn.volusion.com%2Fbfxvo.vhjpy%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2FM104-2.jpg%3F1358864328&hash=ad85367a97f072d7d4cb45e418c0ae16639e3cc3)

He also had an Echo Plex
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fperformermag.com%2FArchives%2Fimages%2Fechoplex.jpg&hash=35fc3ee2efecc48e33a85a738f5472794748cd91)

And at sound check they spent a lot of time targeting the "Guitar Solo Spot Light" - to focus on his Guitar,

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mylespaul.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2Frandyrhoads.jpg&hash=358ae776bb2cbef69bb95a851d08d1f1ca18de49)

and nearby duck tape down the "Momentary Floor Switch" to activate the Echo - Only when the switch was depressed was Echo Activated, remove your foot, and Echo turns off. They could have used the sensing of this same switch to enable the Spot Light too.

IN this manner, Randy could look cool on stage, the Tone and Sustain was phenomenal - and when Randy headed over to his "Solo stage position", he could place his foot on the floor switch to enable the Echoplex, and at the end of the solo, Randy simply strutted back behind  Kevin DuBrow - the vocalist, the Echo turned off, since he was no longer standing on the echo floor switch
It sounded like this
http://youtu.be/e4MKUKxC6GY (http://youtu.be/e4MKUKxC6GY)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Riot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Riot)

https://youtu.be/pnSPS5VgHBY (https://youtu.be/pnSPS5VgHBY)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: PD FX on January 23, 2013, 08:16:33 AM
I know this Peavey amp! played on it in the 80's..... they are sooooo loud..
yes, there is a lot of prejudice about amplification.. whether tubes,transistors or chips, you gotta bring it to the stage yourself.. In the end it is your music and your presence that makes the show. tubes are largely overrated in that aspect. The warmth comes from the player, not from the tubes...

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 09:16:04 AM
QuoteI know this Peavey amp! played on it in the 80's..... they are sooooo loud..


Yep - if you know this amp - Randy Rhoads "Blizzard of Oz" tone is the last thing you would expect it to deliver.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 23, 2013, 01:28:00 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 07:41:54 AM
I once interviewed Roger Steen of "The Tubes"  - and he said when they started they were the combined members of two bands (The Beans & Red White and Blues Band) - they sounded good but nobody showed up to the gigs, so they decided to "Ramp things up a notch" and hired  female exotic dancers, and the rest is history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tubes)
   

I love Roger Steen's guitar playing - seen the Tubes three times live - another of the underrated unsung guys who can really play and his singing voice is better than most lead guitar players too.  Plays for the song most of the time but can really rip when it is required.

Maybe I should hire some female exotic dancers?  The wife wouldn't understand... "but people will want to come to my shows more now!"
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 23, 2013, 01:43:55 PM
One of my best live tones to this day still came from a Mesa Boogie studio preamp into a JC-120 with TC Electronic and Lexicon FX in the effects loop.  I couldn't believe it.  Every time I'd dig into a solo the thing just rang like nothing else - I could do clean washes ala Alex Lifeson on "Power Windows" with the FX and backing off I could nail the clean tone on Robert Plant's "Big Log".  Crazy.  The JC is known for being a great clean amp but the distortion is pretty mediocre.  With the Mesa goosing its front end it was like butter.   And the clean tone which was already great was "warmed up" by the Mesa. 


Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 02:25:18 PM
QuoteI love Roger Steen's guitar playing

I will tell him!

Me too!  Ive become friends with the band, once during sound check Roger played both parts of The Beatle's "And you Bird Can sing" simultaneously in its entirety  - Awesome talent.

This showcases his talent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIgjUbbqWrA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIgjUbbqWrA)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: IanRamos on January 23, 2013, 06:58:27 PM
Then he said "and of course it helps to  have a singer that will chat up the audience while you're changing setups. And if the singer is a pretty female, so much the better."

buff , don't even get me started on that ...
i totally agree , it makes a whole difference having a female singer in the band , even if she is mediocre in the singing part , you can be sure it will be a great gig if she's good looking .

sad but true ...

amazing Chappers video by the way , i never thought you could get such tone from a Cosm amp .
i certanly don't with my gr-55 , i had to get me a Pod hd500 just for the distortion .
  :-\
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: LPHovercraft on January 23, 2013, 08:10:44 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 08:07:41 AM
This was his "tone" box - an MXR Distortion+ - set to max, always on
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa248.e.akamai.net%2Forigin-cdn.volusion.com%2Fbfxvo.vhjpy%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2FM104-2.jpg%3F1358864328&hash=ad85367a97f072d7d4cb45e418c0ae16639e3cc3)

One: this made me laugh the hardest I've laughed in recent memory. Dunno why - but it struck me as funny to the tune of "of *course* it was!"

:-)

Two: Echo Park isn't 'near' LA - it *is* LA - practically downtown! :-D

Again - on a more serious note - from that video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSmO-9OmcA) I know EXACTLY what kind of bass and guitar amp I'm going to buy for walking around to 'straight tone' gigs. I've been thinking about being a tad but more portable than carrying around my full rig and 'just be a bass player' or 'just be a guitar player'. Walking into a session with the Megatar in a gig bag over my shoulder - a bass amp in one hand and a guitar amp in the other - seems mighty appealing compared to hauling in the VG/VB and digital mixer, et al.

And holy crap, does that little amp head *deliver*! Of course, being able to slap the front end of that pre-amp with decent technique helps quite a bit. :)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 23, 2013, 08:42:34 PM
QuoteTwo: Echo Park isn't 'near' LA - it *is* LA - practically downtown! :-D

Agreed - those were great times - Rent was $250 / mo for a three bedroom Victorian House.
- and I had two room mates so $83/mo living expense left me room to be a full time musician for 4 years.
My Landlord owned the House they used for the 1970's "CountryTime Lemonade" TV ads - nearby.

and Tom Waits was my next door neighbor - but thats a whole off topic story - to be continued.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6125.msg83168#msg83168 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6125.msg83168#msg83168)

http://youtu.be/HLDA3GQpYJ4 (http://youtu.be/HLDA3GQpYJ4)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: mbenigni on January 24, 2013, 09:34:24 AM
What a great thread!  Love the stories about LA in the 70's, and the Randy Rhoads info (with gear porn) is awesome!  The great thing about that rig is that you know he chose most of those components (the Echoplex is probably an exception) because he was broke, and they were available.  Play hard enough and almost anything will work.

I do love the MXR Dist+ though - still a bargain.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 24, 2013, 11:31:20 AM
I arrived in LA in 1976, moved to the Manhatten Beach / Lawndale area  - discovered there are zero lawns in Lawndale - mostly cheap low budget  post WW2 2-bedroom houses  with front yards concreted over, full of oil stains and partially dismantled VW's and Corvairs  on narrow 50 foot wide lots, where every other house had identical floor plan, simply 180 reversed from the neighbors house - 3 foot wide side yards, In summer at diner time, you could say "pass the Salt & Pepper Please", and your next door neighbor could easily accomplish this feat thru open adjoining windows.

In August 1976 I headed to Hollywood to see local live music, saw nothing exciting - until I decided to check out the Thursday night house band at Gazzarri's in the Sunset Strip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazzarri%27s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazzarri%27s)

It was some band I never heard of called "Van Halen" - all I could think of was Dutch Boy Paint. ;)
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fglobal.networldalliance.com%2Fnew%2Fimages%2Fshowcases%2F1977DutchBoy.jpg&hash=53116ef82be215e96e07cde091a1719e70dab800)
I arrived early and saw their sound check.

Eddie played a stock Ibanez Destroyer
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcT-gOnDacLQpYtwFD7eniL3Lew9hYrMio5hHyQwg_kWSRevLRFG8YqJsGud&hash=be4cdad4715206810b24ded2ffea14e0e6639f89)

and he had a Boss SD-1 Super Distortion for solos
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcachepe.zzounds.com%2Fmedia%2Ffit%2C400by400%2Fquality%2C85%2FSD1-fb621450dba64338d880667ae844c82a.jpg&hash=d46890457f867094fe44b27ab55ff00fe7483e59)

and a 1972 "4 input" 50 watt Marshall head
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintageandrare.com%2Fuploads%2Fproducts%2F2594%2F41551%2Fmarshall-JMP-50-watt-1971-big.jpg&hash=c7cc0b9d49aabbbd06b195caec7ab28cd2020534)

and one 4x12 slant cab loaded with Celestions G30's

He also had a UniVox EC-80A  Tape Echo
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Festecho.com%2Fgear_pics%2Funivox_ec80_T.jpg&hash=1988b1f3c8307faf0bd803f7bfa9ad2c39d7873f)


He did use a Variac, set to 85VAC to run his Marshall on  - instead of the local 117VAC
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F31d9P%252B0KV6L.jpg&hash=ce05931affd9f03eefca2feb57cc56ad697dce90)

They played zero originals, 100% covers of Aerosmith, Cream.   


When they hit the stage  - David Lee Roth went into a fast diatribe -  rather like Peter Wolf in the J-Geils Band  opening with :

"Ladies and Gentleman, we've been sleeping all day so we will have ALL the energy and power to rock ALL your socks and party All night with all you wonderful people -

1 -2 -3 -4 !"

and they went into a perfect version of "Walk This Way"

They were the best Aerosmith cover band I ever saw! and I learned I was no longer the best guitarist in LA. ;)


Made me want to form my own band called "CamaroSmith





 

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: MCK on January 24, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 24, 2013, 11:31:20 AM
... and I learned I was no longer the best guitarist in LA. ;)

What a wonderful post. Thanks for sharing this experience. I wish I was there when it all happened.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 24, 2013, 01:59:30 PM
Great story.

The best guitarist in Minneapolis when I was playing the bars was a guy named Greg Herzenagh.  I always thought he would be famous because he was tall, photogenic and had chops for days but was very musical.

He's best known for being the lead guitarist for the Peter Himmelman band when they were on CBS records - Peter is a Minneapolis music fixture formerly of bar band legends Sussman Lawrence best known as a singer/songwriter type artist.
Not Greg's main focus when I saw him coming up thru the bars.

But getting back to Greg.  Greg was in three bands that cemented his reputation as the fire breathing monster on guitar to be contended with:  the first band was "The Speed Kings" which was Minneapolis' answer to Michael Angelo Batio's old band Nitro - loudest/fastest/craziest metal ever.  He was also in a jazz rock fusion outfit called "The Outsiders" (I still listen to their two self-released recordings on Logic Records) and a third band called "Life After Dark" who specialized in doing note perfect insane covers of stuff you never thought you would ever hear covers of done well in a live bar context.

Life After Dark would play stuff like PERFECT later Beatles covers.  They could do the more difficult Kansas numbers perfectly. 
Pink Floyd.  Boston.  Basically the AOR staples but some newer stuff too.   

The Outsiders were funny: basically the winners of Knut Koupee music's "Best Guitarist", "Best Bassist", "Best Keyboardist" and "Best Drummer" all in the same band.  Insane.  They could play covers of any fusion song you care to name, Weather Report, Holdsworth, Mahavishnu, without breaking a sweat.   But their originals were just as amazing.

He was ridiculously good.  Still to this day the best two handed tapping player I've ever seen.  His legato and sweeping were perfect too.  In "Life After Dark" it wasn't unusual to hear them covering some AOR hit and he breaks into some Holdsworth lick but always done with taste and musicality.  His tone was right on and his melodies would give you goosebumps.

His rig?  Jackson Soloist neckthru into a Mesa Mark I with some stompboxes.  His tone was perfect for what he was trying to do.  He was no doubt the biggest fish in Minneapolis at the time (I would see the Outsiders live and many of the bandmembers in Prince's groups would be in attendance watching) and flew out to LA where he found he was a big fish among other big fish and found it hard to compete.  He came back here and married his girlfriend and had a kid and played in the Himmelman band which didn't show at all what he could do and also did sessions and jingles. 

I did manage to track him down and found that his latest stuff I've heard was singer/songwriter stuff that is pretty whimsical as well as a crazy surf meets techno project with some of his most insane guitar playing ever - really cool stuff but musical, not just an excuse for crazy chops.

The other thing is, as cool and individual a solo style he had he could ape the players he was covering perfectly, tonally, chopswise and idiomatically.  Greg was the man, I expect he still is today but I still count some of his Outsiders stuff the most impressive lead guitar playing I've witnessed in person in public.  He was fully on the level of a Scott Henderson or a Allan Holdsworth or a Pat Metheny.  Really great.

Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 24, 2013, 05:34:27 PM
Quotebasically the winners of Knut Koupee music's "Best Guitarist"

Ah! Knute Koupee! my friend Dudley Gimpel was master luthier there 1976-1981. I  understand he played in a local Minneapololis 50's rockabilly show band  under stage name "Bo Dudley"

He moved to LA in 1981 and we worked together at Valley Arts Guitar ,
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gibson.com%2Fpress%2Fnamm%2Fimages%2FValleyArts.jpg&hash=8297b87817cd14d22329b8957e0f25a0f385b6fc)

then in 1984 he landed the master Luthier gig at Ernie Ball  / MusicMan.  - He's worked with everybody. 
http://www.facebook.com/dudley.gimpel (http://www.facebook.com/dudley.gimpel)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on January 24, 2013, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: Elantric on January 24, 2013, 05:34:27 PM
Ah! Knute Koupee! my friend Dudley Gimpel was master luthier there 1976-1981. I  understand he played in a local Minneapololis 50's rockabilly show band  under stage name "Bo Dudley"

He moved to LA in 1981 to work at Valley Arts, then in 1984 he landed the master Luthier gig at Ernie Ball  / MusicMan.  - He's worked with everybody. 
http://www.facebook.com/dudley.gimpel (http://www.facebook.com/dudley.gimpel)

I miss the heck out of Knut.  Theirs was a sad story because towards the end beset by employee theft and not one but two guitar centers hitting town they desperately changed their name to "Musicians Warehouse" and basically faded into the sunset.   

I still have gear I bought from there.

Highlights:

-Bought my #1 guitar there sometime in 1989 but have bought numerous other gear there.  At the time, if you needed your guitar worked on that was one of the places to go if you wanted it done right.  Gimpel was gone by the time I was frequenting their place.

#1:

(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmadsound.dyndns.org%2Fvg99%2Fpics%2Fex2-big3.jpg&hash=565baa19a835f173e83bee377366897f684c4e03)

-They had a series of custom guitars you could have them build, they had "Knut-o-casters" amongst others.

-I was walking in one day when Sheila E was walking out and she said "Hi!" to me with a big bright smile wearing a jean jacket, t-shirt and jeans looking impossibly attractive and being friendly.  and I was too stupid to realize she was saying Hi to me and my friends teased me about it for months.  Ack!

-Watched Bireli Lagrene destroy minds from less than five feet away while trying out guitars there sometime in the last 1980s/early 1990s - at the time I had no idea who this guy was but he was totally world class and shockingly good.  Even the salesguys came running to see who it was.  He put the guitar back on the rack and left.  I later saw his face on a poster advertising his gig in town that night.

-My friends sister was talking to two guys about an Alesis rackmount effects unit they were checking out and she was just shopping with me and her brother - it ended up being Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.

Knut's yellow pages ad was distinctive - it showed a Gibson Les Paul custom with Donald Duck admiring it. 
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on January 16, 2016, 11:26:05 PM
bump for those who may have missed thread

They're listening with their eyes.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.0)

and


Tough times for local bands ??
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1121.msg115728#msg115728 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1121.msg115728#msg115728)

Robo-performances and live audience reactions
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11015.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11015.0)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Elantric on June 21, 2017, 01:16:48 PM
http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/how-many-of-our-mistakes-do-audiences-and-other-musicians-actually-hear/

Nobody likes to crack notes, miss shifts, or play out of tune. Especially in front of an audience. But unless we decide to give up the experience of performing live, that's just something that comes with the territory.
And...right about now there's probably a voice in your head saying, "Yeah, ok, Captain Obvious – what's your point?"
Well, I was watching this interview with cellist Astrid Schween the other day, and heard her describe how important it is to understand the difference between practice mode and performance mode (it begins at 8:42 here).
Whereas practice mode is characterized by careful self-monitoring for mistakes and imperfections, analysis, and critique, performance mode is where we are focused more on sound, phrasing, and the beauty in a piece that we want an audience to experience. Which, when you think about it, are about 180 degrees in the opposite direction from one another.
So there is this interesting paradox about practicing, where the more time we spend in practice mode, the better we get at doing something that is a total no-no in performance (?!).
And what's so bad about playing out of tune or a barely perceptible tremor in our sound anyway? Well, for me, the honest answer is that playing less than perfectly made me feel embarrassed, especially in front of friends, teachers, or other musicians. But I suppose the "correct" answer is that the reason why these little imperfections of pitch, sound, rhythm, and so on matter, is that they detract from the beauty of the piece, and the listener's experience of the performance.
But how distracting are they really? And do our musician friends and colleagues who make us the most nervous really notice as many of the mistakes we think they do?
10 pianists. 1 hour. 4 pieces.
Well, these are tricky questions, and I don't know that we can come to a totally definitive conclusion, but there is an interesting Yale study that provides some surprising insights.
Ten Yale piano majors (9 grad students and 1 incoming student) were given an hour to learn and record four short pieces. Given the time constraints, their performances of these pieces obviously fell a wee bit short of perfection. Especially since if you really want to take things to a high level, there are a whole range of different types of imperfections that could exist in a performance, from sound to rhythm to intonation, and many more subtle details. But one obvious category of errors is whether we play the right notes or not.
And in that regard, the collective recordings of the pianists' performance of Chopin's D-flat Major Prelude contained 380 total note errors. Meaning, the pianists either a) played a wrong note, b) left out a note, or c) played a note where there was none written in the score.
Pianists grading pianists
Eight Yale undergraduate piano majors, all of whom were familiar with the piece (and two of whom had studied the piece), then listened to the recordings, uninterrupted, with blank, unmarked copies of the score.
They were asked to circle any wrong, missing, or added notes they heard in the recording. And that if they couldn't quite figure out what happened, circling a group of notes was ok too.
How many errors did they notice?
Before we get into the results, take a moment to guess how many of the note errors the pianists were able to detect. Or even better, what percentage of the note errors they noticed.
Got a number in mind?
Ok. So here's what happened.
Of the 380 errors, the eight pianists as a team, detected only 38% (i.e. 143). The highest individual score was 22% of errors detected, and one pianist caught only 7% of the errors.
There was surprisingly little overlap among the pianists too. Only 6 out of the 380 errors were noticed by all 8 pianists; 3 errors by 7 of the pianists; and 5 errors by 6 of the pianists.
Takeaways
The obvious limitation of this study is that given the sheer number of notes that pianists play, and the polyphonic nature of the instrument, it makes sense that a listener would be less likely to notice omitted or incorrect notes, especially if they occur in the inner voices. A different instrument's note errors, on the other hand, might stand out a little more clearly.
And when we're talking about experienced musicians like our teachers and the performers we look up to, who have cultivated great ears and musical insights over many decades, and also know the repertoire we're playing inside and out, the results of course may be different. Especially if the definition of errors is expanded to include musical nuance and many of the higher-order aspects of music that much of our work ultimately centers around.
Nevertheless, we do tend to be much more sensitive to the imperfections in our playing than others are. Because when we listen back to our own performances, we often realize how much less noticeable most errors are on the recording, compared with how catastrophic they seemed under our ear at the time. So all that energy we devote to beating ourselves up and feeling embarrassed about mistakes and imperfections in a performance is kind of wasted on stuff that not only goes unnoticed, but prevents us from attending to the interesting music stuff that we actually want an audience to hear.
So ultimately, it seems that the mistakes we make are probably much less distracting to the audience than we might assume. More than anything, it's probably the case that these mistakes distract us from the task at hand, and this hijacking of our attention is what gets in the way of our ability to play our best, and bring a little beauty into their world.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: gumtown on June 21, 2017, 01:52:41 PM
I can relate to that article, we had a gig last weekend, and many of our local 'who's who in the music bizo' were there.
At that moment when all the eyes seemed to be on me, I dropped a clanger bum note (right fret-wrong string), then panic overwhelmed me and suddenly I forget what song we are playing, so I decide to pound out some animated freestyle solo piece, a bit of quick composure while doing that - and pulling some meaningful facial expressions, remembered the song, then away again.... pheew!!
The crowd cheers and the rest of the band grin and smile like it was a planned part of the song.
It seemed like an eternity, but probably only endured for a few seconds, but there was one important thing that we had previously discussed as a band.
In the event of an unforeseen mistake, do not point the finger, grimace, or make accusations, instead smile, laugh, and make that mistake with intent like we practiced our hearts out to make it that way.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Brak(E)man on June 22, 2017, 01:40:55 AM
As I play improvised music it's the " mistakes " that are interesting.
When used wisely they can take the music in a different direction.
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: whippinpost91850 on June 22, 2017, 10:30:13 AM
Yes, that's the professional approach to a mistake 8)
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: chrish on June 22, 2017, 12:01:57 PM
I remember seeing a jazz Trio in Baltimore about 35 years ago in a small Jazz Club.

Probably one of the best guitar players I've ever seen.

Well during the break I overheard the guitar player almost yelling at the bass player for mistakes he made with the harmony.

As an audience member I could not tell that any sort of mistake was made and I think that's pretty common with audiences. Heck most of the time ,at small Club venues, the audience does not even seem to be actively listening to the music.

What the guitar player was displaying I believe is referred to as the 'Jazz disease.'
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: admin on February 09, 2018, 11:52:11 AM
https://youtu.be/J3r9FLLBpE0

Go to 4:00 minutes for a crucial explanation of why Les wanted a solid body guitar
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: Hurricane on February 09, 2018, 05:20:35 PM
I saw this on TV and wondered why it didn't make any big waves .

I guess the state of art was way ahead of the mindset of the times .

Loopers rule , so many new talents have gotten huge because of a
simple Digitech or Boss looper .

8)
I would venture to say these are a fantastic evolutionary devices only
eclipsed by the electric guitar's appearance in the 1930's/40's .

Now Variax and the like with on board FX and preset guitar sounds .

I'm temped to put a modded Boss DS-1 circuit board in one of my electric
guitars they are so small .

EZ :

HR
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: admin on March 15, 2023, 11:10:03 AM
Good demonstration of "Their Listening with their eyes"


https://youtu.be/aBSmO-9OmcA
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: aliensporebomb on March 17, 2023, 07:19:41 AM
This video talks about it with examples as well as some foul language so YMMV:

Basically - a A-B test with 3 tube amps versus one solid date and the (probably) inevitible results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J114l-cv9fs
Title: Re: They're listening with their eyes.
Post by: arkieboy on March 17, 2023, 07:40:51 AM
Josh Scott has been poking at this truth for some time.  Most notably at some point in the last couple of years he switched from a 'proper' amp to a Kemper for his YouTube show, only recently breaking cover.

The most recent one is where he demos a Digitech Bad Monkey along side expensive/unobtainable drive pedals, and extracts very similar and sometimes (Klon!) identical sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFOD6s0IRoM