SY-300 played with hex and without

Started by Brak(E)man, January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM

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Brak(E)man

2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.





I used a slightly gritty sound , played sloppy etc.

No added fx or eq etc. only SYs sound
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

lumena

Ok I am curious how did you send hex into the sy-300.

Thanks for the monday perk up.

Brak(E)man

#2
GP 10 dry out each string separate and all together ,  then resynth on SY300
One track with the strings together and six tracks with individual
strings one at the time and mixed down
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

lumena


Brak(E)man

#4
I wanted to know what SY 300 would sound like playing normal chords through a hex instead of the not working guitar input. The difference is extreme. Why Boss decided to skip the hex on the unit, must be one of the more stupid decision they've come up with . Why not have both like GP10 and let the guitar player decide on hex or not ( I know there's a difference between SY and GP regarding what the normal guitar input is used for )

The method I'm trying is working, I should prob turn of some of the fx and add that in the Daw for better result, the big downside is the time consuming record and resynth 6 times.
And the fact that there's no possible live use , when I hear the result I only get more frustrated with this in most other aspects best guitar synth I've tried IMO
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

QuoteWhy Boss decided to skip the hex on the unit, must be one of the more stupid decision they've come up with

The Answer is simple

the SY-300 focus is synth for normal guitars

Its NOT a trivial task to add a GK 13 pin input - it requires six A/D converters and enough processing power to handle 6 or 7 (hex PU+ normal mags) audio streams in real time, which the SY-300 is incapable of

I'm hoping they release a "GP-20"  in September 2017 which would be a combo of GP-10,  SY-300, ME-80 ;)   

Brak(E)man

I understand that BUT the SY is IMHO the best functioning guitar synth I've played, ( apart from the HEX problem) . Hearing what it'd sound like with a HEX makes it even more annoying. I'd pay 4 times as much or more for the unit if it worked like that.
I'm also hoping for a combo but ...
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

gumtown

You could buy another 5 SY-300 units and use a GK 13 pin breakout to run each string into each SY-300.

To make the SY-300 a hex unit would require 6 x the processing power and considerably more cost.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

gumtown

It would be good if the SY-300 technology was merged with a GR-55, for a next generation guitar synth.
Allowing the option of hex input or mono input, and then driving COSM modelling, PCM synth, and SY-300 type synth.
All-in-one-box.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Brak(E)man

Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
You could buy another 5 SY-300 units and use a GK 13 pin breakout to run each string into each SY-300.

To make the SY-300 a hex unit would require 6 x the processing power and considerably more cost.

The solution with 6 SYs is appealing but toooo bulky !
And I doubt if it needs 6 times the processing power.
A lot of the stuff like FX etc can be shared and it's already capable of 6 times 3 osc.
It's been a loooong time since my engineers degree so I could be wrong but nah..
The biggest problem is that the input they chose to implement doesn't work.
I mean listen to the chords in those two examples above.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 11:04:19 AM
It would be good if the SY-300 technology was merged with a GR-55, for a next generation guitar synth.
Allowing the option of hex input or mono input, and then driving COSM modelling, PCM synth, and SY-300 type synth.
All-in-one-box.

I agree especially if VG8 , 88 and 99 where to be implemented as well  :)
And if they could get PCM tones from the same technology as SY etc.
The present trig of PCM doesn't hack it IMO
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

#11
The thing that i don't understand is that the gp10 has both hex and 1/4'' guitar inputs and the gp10 is way less expensive than the sy300.

Is the additional processing power really that expensive?

i like the idea of 6 sy-300 and a breakout box. I have 2 already, 4 to go. :-)

By the way, up to 16 moog voyager rme (and or slim phattys) can be stacked and linked via the software to achieve polyphony.

With the moog, I've found that a long unit warm up time, besides osc stability, provides for better midi pitch to cv stability when used with the vg-99 or gr-50. But still would like a ftp for that purpose.

When i get some time, i'd like to port some moog patches to the sy-300 and visa versa.

Elantric

#12
Quote
Is the additional processing power really that expensive?

Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology

szilard

Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM
2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.

Good demo, that really shows the problems with using a 1/4 input. Sure makes me hope they do some hex version.

chrish

#14
Quote from: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology

That certainly describes the sy-300 tech. Glad i purchased two of them because when i limit my playing technique to expect only 3 note poly, then the thing works great for what i do.

However, paying a little more for  hex processing would have been well worth it. It would have been a monster synth.

I just hope that roland doesn't keep releasing more 1/4'' tech of this type and imply that it's way better than the last version, unless it really works.

imo, they did this with the gr series synths concerning the pitch and tracking glitch issues.

imo, the old gr50  has fewer pitch to glitch issues than the vg99 when using 5 pin midi din out to external tone modules or synths like the moog voyager.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Elantric on January 30, 2017, 11:51:25 AM
Yes its the processing power - along with recouping the R&D costs for developing the SY-300

people forget the original VG-8 was $2,500 MSRP in 1996

and dropped to $1,899 for the 1998 VG-8EX   -there is always a higher cost to be first kid on the block with bleeding edge tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_edge_technology

I payed much more than that almost double. At the time living in Scandinavia the price was much higher. Moving to USA made me realize how spoiled with low prices you are.
I'd pay that or more for a functional SY
And I believe that Boss aimed at the wrong target and shot themselves in the foot trying to sell the non working polyphony to guitarist who hates hex. They won't buy a guitar synth anyway.

And I don't think that it'd add up to that amount of monedas to get a working SY with hex.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

gumtown

From a marketing perspective (as the way large manufacturers see things),
selling a half a$$ guitar synth to the general guitar 1/4" jack population will sell much more units than
a specialist expensive 13 pin product to a smaller customer base.

It is an unfortunate way of the world that much musical instrument equipment is designed by accountants.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#17
i agree with Gumtown - and many here developed their expectations based upon the 2007 Roland VG-99, but loose sight of the global economic recession / meltdown of 2008 and its continued impact on today's economy which remains tight in many sectors. Sales wise the VG-99 was a dud. In the past 6 months, Roland has already manufactured more Boss Katana Amps than the entire 5 year VG-99 production run.

In 2017, the most vocal enthusiasts with deep pockets are not in the USA, instead its Europe who is getting Roland Management's current attention, with the resulting "closed box" Strandberg VGuitar, that IMHO is polar opposite of what the VG-99 paradigm represents.

Serves as a reminder that "new" does not necessarily mean "better"

       

Brak(E)man

#18
Quote from: gumtown on January 30, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
From a marketing perspective (as the way large manufacturers see things),
selling a half a$$ guitar synth to the general guitar 1/4" jack population will sell much more units than
a specialist expensive 13 pin product to a smaller customer base.

It is an unfortunate way of the world that much musical instrument equipment is designed by accountants.

It's exactly the opposite of what my local dealer says.
They thought SY was going to sell but because of the
crap polyphony and mushiness of the SY-300 the main seller
by large is today still the GR55 meaning the hex not the price
and that box is old

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#19
Quotethe main seller
by large is today still the GR55 meaning the hex not the price
and that box is old

And I can confirm 80% of new members today still mention reason for joining the forum is for our  GR-55 knowledge and patches.

its still 5:1 GR-55 vs GP-10, and SY-300 users remain very rare,   despite my own preference for the GP-10 as a relevant tool, (its been years since anyone joined to learn more about the VG-99 ( i recall it was Radley)) while my GR-55 collects dust because I still view the GR-55 as a technology demonstrator  / "jack of all trades, but master of none".

Brak(E)man

I'm just disappointed that's all
Quote from: Brak(E)man on January 30, 2017, 03:09:42 AM
2 examples one played as hex ( almost ) and one as the SY is designed.

www.brakophonic.com/SY1.mp3

www.brakophonic.com/SY2.mp3

I used a slightly gritty sound , played sloppy etc.

No added fx or eq etc. only SYs sound
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Rhcole

OR, Boss could have positioned the SY like the Mooer Ocean Machine, promoting it for its massive atmospheric and ambient capabilities and placing less emphasis on the Osc section.
I'm going to guess that the Ocean Machine will find its audience and do quite well.
But no, every Boss demo in the universe highlights shred and metal playing and leaves out everything else. The new Strandberg guitar demos are a case in point.

Brak(E)man

Or they could focus on the osc that actually works and fix the polyphony the doesn't .
And promote the shredding and atmospheric qualities.
IMHO the problem is that it doesn't work. You can't play chords with it.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Rhcole

#23
I think my point is, from a design standpoint, Roland never really intended it to be polyphonic. If you look back at the original videos, they rarely referenced polyphony and when they did it was a quick 3 note root third fifth sort of sound played briefly.

Roland intended the SY-300 to be a lead synth type of tool aimed at progressive hard core players, particularly those who liked aggressive sounds. Polyphony was a mumbled side feature.

It just sort of missed the mark marketing-wise. The targeted audience didn't buy it.

I don't begrudge Roland for wanting that market, although it's not my style. Go get 'em Roland.
But, Roland SEEMS to want the metal/shred market and never seems to speak to them in the right way with the techno whiz products.

We'll see what they develop next, but I have to believe they are becoming disheartened at the response they are getting for these products. That certainly doesn't encourage them to make more powerful and complex tools. From Roland's perspective, it wouldn't make sense to decide that the SY wasn't popular because it didn't have clean enough polyphony, and therefore they need to step up and make a box twice as expensive with four times the power.


Brak(E)man

I agree

I'm just really disappointed.
The SY is the best guitar synth IMHO apart from the hex.
It's a beaut. Guitar mono synth.
And my guess is that it'll be a keeper.
(That said , the synth algorithms in VG8 are better but not as versatile
and they work with polyphony and alt tuning.
I might as well get that machine out of storage.)
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch