Paul Vo / Moog Lev-96 PolyPhonic Sustainer

Started by vanceg, October 21, 2012, 01:51:40 AM

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Elantric

#25
Having owned or tried All Guitar Sustainers - I'm still an advocate for the original. Works best for home studio use (due to the cable mess)  - but I can use this on Acoustic guitars, and Nylon Guitars with Piezo PU's, etc.

The 1987 maniac music Sustainiac model B - now replaced by the Model C

http://www.sustainiac.com/model-c.htm

Headstock Transducer


Floor controller








QuoteThe STANDARD hookup diagram is shown above. The hookup diagram with OPTIONAL CORD-ROUTING SYSTEM is shown below.

Your instrument pickup signal is sent to the INPUT jack on the Sustainiamp floorbox. The INPUT jack is hardwired to the OUTPUT jack, so the instrument pickup signal can be sent to your amp or other effects without alteration. The pickup signal is processed and amplified by the electronic circuitry inside the Sustainiamp. This processed and amplified pickup signal is then passed on to the transducer through the TRANSDUCER jack. The transducer converts the amplified, processed guitar pickup signal into intense acoustic vibrations. The Sustainiac Model C transducer is actually a specialized loudspeaker which is designed to transmit acoustic energy into MASS, not air like a conventional loudspeaker. Like your amp loudspeaker, these acoustic vibrations are in synchronization with the string vibrations. The vibrations are directly sent into the instrument. They travel to the instrument strings. Since the acoustic vibrations are in synchronization with the string vibrations, they add acoustic energy to the strings during each and every vibration. This is what sustains the vibrations, because the vibrations never lose energy unless the power is removed. (It is much like pushing on a swing. You add a little energy each time the swing passes by, and it sustains its vibration provided you give the push at the right time, and you don't stop pushing.)




Here is a homemade version (only 30% as effective as the original)   - to get a ballpark  idea

aliensporebomb

Steve - perfect!  Does anyone remember when guitar player bundled little plastic Eva-Tone soundsheets with their magazine? 

One of them was an ad for the Sustaniac and the demos were literally insane - shrieking feedback that never ended while bringing a whammy to the point where strings were nearly slack then bringing it up to pitch and bending upwards - crazy clean toned chords with chorus and delay that sounded almost keyboard like. 

I still have all of my soundsheets from those days but I remember that one being pretty fun.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#27
Quotean ad for the Sustaniac and the demos were literally insane - shrieking feedback that never ended while bringing a whammy to the point where strings were nearly slack then bringing it up to pitch and bending upwards - crazy clean toned chords with chorus and delay that sounded almost keyboard like. 

INdeed! the original Sustainiac is very insane - recreate every guitar solo on any David Bowie record if you have the chops.

I bought the Model B new in 1999 when i worked at Ernie Ball / Musicman. 

I use an easily removable  Modified GrooveTubes "FatFinger" headstock clamp
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/groove-tubes-fatfinger-guitar-sustain-enhancer

to fit the Sustainiac headstock sustainer - so I can re- attach the system to any guitar.


Now_And_Then


Does a Fatfinger by itself have any value? (And considering how inexpensive they are, if putting a Fatfinger on a guitar is good, is putting two on that guitar even better?)

Elantric

If you have good ears you can hear the difference
Aspen Pittman explained to me that his goal with the FatFinger (originally to be called "FatHead" - but that name was already registered)
was to provide a path for Strats with small vintage headstocks or current production headstocks to sound like "Hendrix at Woodstock" .
In 1966 when CBS redesigned the Fender Strat headstock, the goal was create a larger marketing billboard for the brand, but the larger headstocks provide more mass and sustain.
http://www.vintagerocker.com/fender/headstock.html

Fender headstocks generally come in two sizes, "small" and "big".

You will find the smaller headstock on Statocasters produced from its beginnings in 1954 up until the end of 1965. In late '65 and early '66 Fender began the production of Stratocasters with a "big" headstock. "Big" headstock Fender guitars could have been the design mistake of the decade if Jimi Hendrix hadn't played his late '60s Olympic White Strat at Woodstock. The popularity of some models are player driven and this was certainly the case with "big" headstock Strats which have been scorned by vintage collectors because of their non-traditional 3-bolt neck and headstock design. What's old is generally new again. Fender offers a Reissue of it's big headstock '69 Strat and variations of the Hendrix Strat. I'm sure they are hoping that a new generation will discover the magic of Jimi Hendrix. The "big" headstock was used on Fender instruments until 1980. The switch back to the smaller headstock design came about because of the increasing demand for vintage style instruments.

Differences in the overall finished appearance of the headstock, body, and neck between vintage and later instruments. Earlier guitars still had people using their discriminating eyes and hands to apply the finishing touches to the instruments. Earlier guitars will have a slightly more smooth appearance and finished tolerances will vary from guitar to guitar. If you get a chance to compare the headstocks of earlier with later instruments you'll notice a difference in the thickness of the wood. Earlier headstocks are thicker and as a result add to the tonal differences between newer and older guitars.


I use mine strictly as a clamp for my Sustainiac

GovernorSilver

I doubt LEV-96 is a sustainer that physically drives strings like a Sustainiac, Fernandes Sustainer, or Moog Guitar. Sounds more like an Electro-Harmonix HOG pedal to me.  The HOG generates pitches based on the audio input signal.  The LEV-96 seems kind of the same, except its pitches are based on the harmonics it extracts from the acoustic sound of the strings, rather than a signal coming from a pickup. None of the video demos I've seen of LEV-96 clearly demonstrate it DRIVING the strings - its seems to be more of a string ANALYZER than a string DRIVER.

In theory, one should be able to plop a LEV-96 on top of a piano and get all kinds of cool harmonic information/sounds out of it, but you're not going to hear the piano "sustain for days". 

This is a much better demo, imo, though the Youtube title is obviously incorrect - it's not a Moog Guitar anymore than a piano is a Minimoog: 

Now_And_Then

#31

Very interesting video from a very talented young guitarist.

The Lev96 however, demonstrates its ability to play in unison with, and double, an acoustic guitar, but not much more than that. It's kind of like having an accompanying electronic keyboard.

The Lev96 does not appear to be an overly versatile device...


(Relevant to a different thread: note in the cited video an Ovation on a guitarstand in the background. Note a different Ovation used in many of her other videos.)

thebrushwithin

#32
I play a Moog practically everyday, and this is just a derivative of the sustainer, IMO. I get harmonics ringing out a lot with mine, with the same delay, before they kick in. Not exactly the same harmonics, mind you, but not too different. It reminds me very much of drawbars on an organ, pulling out the upper voices of the pitch. When I see them demonstrate it with a nylon string guitar, I will think otherwise. I still can't believe the controls are on the upper area. Can you imagine having any prominent guitar controls on that part of a guitar? I don't get it...I dig the sound though. I think I am going to work on a VG99 patch, with my Moog, to try and capture that basic sound...nice challenge...
Here is her song without the Moog attachment:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDmth1YZI7k&feature=related
I like her style too.

GovernorSilver

Quote from: thebrushwithin on February 08, 2013, 11:27:55 PM
I play a Moog practically everyday, and this is just a derivative of the sustainer, IMO.

I think you're talking about a Moog Guitar, which is different from the LEV-96.  I'm willing to bet the LEV-96 is not a sustainer at all - you slap that thing on your acoustic, you will NOT get infinite sustain.

If anything, LEV-96 reminds me of an Electro-Harmonix HOG pedal, and its spinoff siblings (POG, POG2) and similar pedals like the Earthquaker Devices Organizer - all of which extract harmonics from strings using DSP techniques.  I'm guessing LEV-96 is somehow generating the harmonics with analog oscillators, but Moog has to figure out how to convince us why the LEV-96 is better than those pedals, besides the old "it's analog!" argument.

thebrushwithin

#34
I am aware they are different. However, at the beginning, before she starts her song, she strums open strings. They then begin to sustain naturally,of course, then I hear the same exact swell that my Moog makes, except this time several harmonics  can be dialed in, as the sustain continues. When she then goes for the finger harmonics, with her left hand, the strings' sustain doesn't decrease at all, even though her finger has been across the twelfth fret, without strumming any more than the one time. We'll find out more soon I hope. I think I would like to hear it with nylon strings, if it is not electromagnetically sustained. I'll bet it only works with metal strings. I actually hope it does work with anything, sounds very nice...but I doubt it. I think if you watch this video, you will realize that it is indeed a sustainer, without 2 pickups, that can also emphasize specific multiple harmonics. http://www.moogmusic.com/content/lev-96-beta-test-footage
This might be truly important, if you could also employ it on a solid body, of any brand - just dreaming, but what if....

GovernorSilver

#35
Quote from: thebrushwithin on February 12, 2013, 02:53:26 PM
I think if you watch this video, you will realize that it is indeed a sustainer, without 2 pickups, that can also emphasize specific multiple harmonics. http://www.moogmusic.com/content/lev-96-beta-test-footage

I watched the video again.  I'm still not convinced it is a sustainer.  A true sustainer can activate the strings and make them sustain infinitely (or until the power runs out).  In all of the examples in the video, the player had to actuate the strings himself by a pluck.  The "sustain" only lasts as long as the acoustic strings ring.  I bet once the acoustic strings die out, the sound of the LEV-96 stops entirely - thus disqualifying it as a true sustainer.

I suppose it has the ability to sustain the harmonics it generates off of the acoustic strings, like the EHX HOG does.  But that still wouldn't make it a sustainer in my book, any more than I would call my EHX HOG a "sustainer".

I had a Fernandes Sustainer guitar.  With the Drive turned up high enough, the strings would wail on their own without me plucking them.  There is still no demonstration of the LEV-96 being able to do this - it cannot produce a sound without someone plucking a string or "bowing" it with a metal object.

Elantric

#36
QuoteWith the Drive turned up high enough, the strings would wail on their own without me plucking them

I agree - my Fernandez Sustainers can "self oscillate" within a few seconds just by turning the Sustainer "on"

By contrast, anytime I tried the Moog E1  - I always had to strum the strings first or pluck one note, then wait 15 seconds for the sustain to eventually build up and start working. 

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Elantric on February 12, 2013, 05:42:33 PM
I agree - my Fernandez Sustainers can "self oscillate" within a few seconds just by turning the Sustainer "on"

By contrast, anytime I tried the Moog E1  - I always had to strum the strings first or pluck one note, then wait 15 seconds for the sustain to eventually build up and start working.

I bought a Fernandez Monterey with Sustainer and those few seconds needed for the sustain to actually kick in made it useless for my purpose. I had absolutely no idea that the Moog E-1's would take that long to kick in: that's a veritable eternity, as far as I'm concerned. And that would make it even less useful for me than the Fernandez was. (I want to clarify that I am not saying that the Monterey was a bad guitar or that their sustainer was not perfectly usable for *other* purposes. It was just that the Sustainer was not fit for my specific purposes, and that made the guitar completely redundant for me.)

I am *still* waiting for a successor to The Gizmotron....

TheGuitarPlayer

Quote from: Now_And_Then on February 12, 2013, 09:27:07 PM
I bought a Fernandez Monterey with Sustainer and those few seconds needed for the sustain to actually kick in made it useless for my purpose. I had absolutely no idea that the Moog E-1's would take that long to kick in: that's a veritable eternity, as far as I'm concerned. And that would make it even less useful for me than the Fernandez was. (I want to clarify that I am not saying that the Monterey was a bad guitar or that their sustainer was not perfectly usable for *other* purposes. It was just that the Sustainer was not fit for my specific purposes, and that made the guitar completely redundant for me.)

I am *still* waiting for a successor to The Gizmotron....
Surely Elantric was exagerating?!?!? My Moog E1-M starts sustaining almost instantly.  Extremes in pitch can take longer or sustain poorly, and it does take a while to sweep from front pickup sustaining to rear pickup sustaining, but generally its quite quick.

thebrushwithin

Yes, my Moog is pretty quick too. If you have the selector for "articulated sustain" it will wait for a string to vibrate, but if you have it selected for full sustain, the strings will go off on their own. Keep in mind that the strength of the sustain is controlled by the VO pot, and/or the foot pedal. I love mine, but it has taken a full year for me to adjust it to my liking. I am still experimenting with it's many uses on different patches on the VG, and especially with different soft synth sounds. I signed up for their LEV-96 newsletter. Moog's experiments with magnetism for guitar is to be applauded, I for one, intend to invest when I can. I hope this new technology comes out soon, and that it is affordable.



Now_And_Then

 Possibly Elantric's Moog was defective. I am sure that he will clarify when he sees these posts.

Elantric

#41
I really wanted to like the Moog E-1 - I tried it at several NAMM shows.

Unfortunately the Moog folks working the E1 booth at 2010, and 2011 NAMM shows were too enamored with showing me the Paul Vo models matched wood grain, (yawn) and lacked the ability to put the guitar into a mode that showcased its features. I had only headphones and the VCF Pedal, and tried all the controls in every position I could for 20 minutes on the show floor.

It didn't float my boat   - but of course that easily could be due to pilot error.

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Now_And_Then on February 12, 2013, 09:27:07 PM
I bought a Fernandez Monterey with Sustainer and those few seconds needed for the sustain to actually kick in made it useless for my purpose. I had absolutely no idea that the Moog E-1's would take that long to kick in: that's a veritable eternity, as far as I'm concerned. And that would make it even less useful for me than the Fernandez was. (I want to clarify that I am not saying that the Monterey was a bad guitar or that their sustainer was not perfectly usable for *other* purposes. It was just that the Sustainer was not fit for my specific purposes, and that made the guitar completely redundant for me.)

I am *still* waiting for a successor to The Gizmotron....

I never saw a Gizmotron in person but I've heard the results on the early Godley & Creme records and loved that sound.
Nothing ever quite sounded like that after.    Did you ever get to try one?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#43
I worked on a Gizmotron back in 1979.

Its rotary felt "string bower's"  were rather worn, and the big problem was the radiated EMF noise from the DC motor. The radiated EMF motor noise would be picked up by your magnetic pickups

A Piezo PU system should be immune to this noise BTW.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gizmo

!






Myself - I always wanted a Hurdy Gurdy - which is basically an acoustic hand cranked version of the Gizmotron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy


thebrushwithin

#44
Just a few years ago, I parted with my Gizmotron... :( over the years, the teeth of the wheels became brittle, and many were broken, so I finally just pitched it in the can. It was tough to get right, anyway. I used it during one concert, and that was enough, so I retired it to the studio, and rarely used it.
The pic below shows my old Arp Avatar, but I had placed the Gizmotron on my SG, which I had hoped was visible, but it is not. I used both at this concert in the early 80's.

GovernorSilver

#45
Quote from: Now_And_Then on February 12, 2013, 09:27:07 PM
I bought a Fernandez Monterey with Sustainer and those few seconds needed for the sustain to actually kick in made it useless for my purpose.

Did you check your Gain and Drive knob settings?  I could get "instant on" sustain on my Fernandes Sustainer if I dialed these knobs high enough.  I usually didn't because I wanted to pluck with some dynamics, rather than let the sustainer take them all away from me.

If the issue isn't with the knob settings (or battery power!!!) then try heavier strings.  My Fernandes came with 009s - I switched to 011s.  The lighter gauge high E string was especially slow to respond to the sustainer.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: GovernorSilver on February 13, 2013, 01:39:07 PM
Did you check your Gain and Drive knob settings?  I could get "instant on" sustain on my Fernandes Sustainer if I dialed these knobs high enough.  I usually didn't because I wanted to pluck with some dynamics, rather than let the sustainer take them all away from me.

If the issue isn't with the knob settings (or battery power!!!) then try heavier strings.  My Fernandes came with 009s - I switched to 011s.  The lighter gauge high E string was especially slow to respond to the sustainer.

Thank you for the reply!

All of that might be good advice but it's moot, as I sold that guitar long ago!


Now_And_Then

Quote from: aliensporebomb on February 13, 2013, 09:32:49 AM
I never saw a Gizmotron in person but I've heard the results on the early Godley & Creme records and loved that sound. Nothing ever quite sounded like that after.    Did you ever get to try one?

No, I never did try one. In fact, until the advent of the internet, I never even *saw* one. And according to the Wikipedia article, working Gizmos are non-existent, as the plastic broke down over time, even if kept in a sealed box.

It seems like it was a very problematical device to begin with. Still, one would think that there has been enough advances in materials research to make more suitable and far longer lasting materials from which to manufacture a Gizmo successor.

GovernorSilver

The product has been officially named Vo 96.  Some clarification on what it does is here:

http://gizmodo.com/5985149/paul-vo-has-made-an-entirely-new-and-impossibly-awesome-instrument

So, you can slap it onto any acoustic guitar with a standard soundhole, and it will produce sound using the acoustic guitar itself as a "speaker" - no amp required.  However, neither Vo nor Moog Music has yet addressed a marketing problem with this device - people will continue to confuse it with EBows, Sustainiacs, and Sustainers and somebody will buy it and cry when he turns it on, and it doesn't produce infinite sustain.  There is still no mention of infinite sustain....

Elantric

#49
Guitar Innovation, Then And Now: Paul Vo Reinvents Fretless, Acoustic Guitars [Videos]

by Peter Kirn
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/02/guitar-innovation-then-and-now-paul-vo-reinvents-fretless-acoustic-guitars-videos/





Imagine any acoustic instrument able to act as a synth, and you begin to appreciate the potential instrumental pioneer Paul Vo may be about to unlock.

As we reported last month, music-technological innovation can absolutely involve guitars, not just synths with keyboards. So, it's fitting that we tun now to a lover of keyboards and guitars alike, Chris Stack, for a look in video at the work of Paul Vo.

Vo may not be a household name in sound tech, but he should be, as the inventor of the impressive Moog Guitar. Here, we get look back at what came before — and what's next.

Below, Chris gets his hands on a one-of-a-kind prototype that came before the Moog Guitar, in the form of a fretless model. You can see the fruits of the labors on Moog Guitar in the video at bottom, which demonstrates what a versatile electronic instrument this can be – as much a "synth with strings" as anything, beyond only what you might think of in guitar tone.

But having done fretless, electric, bass, and lap steel, Paul Vo's tech now reaches a truly new frontier: the acoustic guitar and other stringed instruments. And that could be very big news. Watch, at top. It's still early to fully grasp what this instrument may be like, but already there's something really special going on:

    The Vo-96 Acoustic Synth is the newest innovation from Paul Vo, the inventor of The Moog Guitar. It opens a new method of musical expression called Acoustic Synthesis. Will Rayan and Vincent Crow of The Electric Jazz Project try it out for the first time.

Code-named LEV-96, the concept instrument here uses harmonic content from strings as its source material. The inventor explains:

    The numeral 96 refers to the number of individual harmonic control channels. Each channel is capable of controlling the behavior of one harmonic partial of a string's timbre. 16 such channels are instantiated per string. 6 x 16=96

And if your mind isn't blown yet, here's more from Paul on how he's thinking:
Add-on hardware, says Vo, will unlock the harmonic content of acoustic instruments in a way you haven't ever heard before. Photo courtesy Vo Inventions.

Add-on hardware, says Vo, will unlock the harmonic content of acoustic instruments in a way you haven't ever heard before. Photo courtesy Vo Inventions.

    With Acoustic Synthesis™ any acoustic musical instrument – any object that makes a sound – can be enhanced to bring out its hidden acoustic voice. Think also of potential new instruments – playable objects of acoustic art.
    So far I've worked mostly with vibrating strings. The musical instrument string is arguably the most ubiquitous means of making music. It's also the most difficult to vibrate coherently using electronic control. One idea I had back in 1979 turned out to be a great solution. I was amazed to find it was still unknown and patentable 20 years later.
    Over the past 50 years or so we have accepted and become familiar with using synthesizers to create an endless variety of sounds electronically. I'm saying we are now beginning to extend this idea into the physical realm. We can make the virtual become real. We can artistically create new sounds by bringing out modes of vibration that have up to now remained hidden within the material objects we call musical instruments. Through Acoustic Synthesis™ the same sonic exploration is possible for other acoustic instruments and even creative objects of acoustic art that no one has imagined – not just yet anyway.
    Analog Synthesis. Digital Synthesis. Acoustic Synthesis™: it isn't empty hype, this really is a distinctly different and new method of voicing instruments, designing new sounds, and making music.

He covers this on his site:

Vo Inventions

Finally, a look back at the best-known Vo project, the Moog Guitar:

Chris' site has been recently improved, so it's well worth exploring all that he's doing with creative instrument adventures and exploring sound design.

http://experimentalsynth.com/



http://paulvomusic.com/2012-forward-concept-for-the-future/