VG-99 - Larry Carlton Mr. 335

Started by Brent Flash, July 10, 2008, 12:54:05 PM

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Brent Flash

I have been working on this for a while but have been holding off posting it because I was concerned that it would not react the same on other systems. If you have ever watched the video on Mr 335 found here.

http://mr335.tv/index.html?channel=rig&videofile=mr335/rig/tweaktone

This patch is trying to achieve what Larry is talking about in the video. I could not get any of the amp models to do it the way he does it so I am trying to get it with the Dynamic function of the VG-99. The problem is that the GK pickup sensitivity has a lot to do with how this patch works. And other pickup brands will probably work differently too.

If you would let me know how it works on your system it would help me write a patch that may work right on more systems. Thanks in advance!

Patch below.
Less sensitive version on post #4.

RushFan

That probably works but personally I am not used to the dynamics enough to rely on it.
Give this one a try...it kind of sounds like what he's doing, at least to me. I had the Output Level knob set to halfway on the VG and was playing through headphones, so you may need to adjust something's volume.

Brent Flash

#2
Quote from: RushFan on July 11, 2008, 01:27:33 AM
That probably works but personally I am not used to the dynamics enough to rely on it.
Give this one a try...it kind of sounds like what he's doing, at least to me. I had the Output Level knob set to halfway on the VG and was playing through headphones, so you may need to adjust something's volume.

Yes, it works great on my system. That is what I am trying to find out is if it works on everybody else's system? Martin, over in Switzerland, said it was a little sensitive for his system and that it bite a little too easy for him. On my system it is clean until I dig in a bit, which is what I was shooting for.

How does it work on yours?

RushFan

It's a little sensitive to me since I don't have to really dig in that much to trigger the dynamics

Brent Flash

#4
Quote from: RushFan on July 11, 2008, 03:07:08 PM
It's a little sensitive to me since I don't have to really dig in that much to trigger the dynamics
Try this one and let me know if it is better.

Also could you tell me if your pickup sensitivity settings are in the 20 or 40 range?

RushFan

They're all 35, though I do set the high E to 55 because it tends to get drowned out more than I'd like. I have to leave for work in a few minutes so I'll try this when I get home!

sixeight

#6
Here is my extremely simple version. I think you should not use any effects, definately no compression, because that takes out the dynamic range before the amp. I find the tone very responsive to the playing technique. Try playing with fingers and with a plectrum.

I did use Brent's version as a starting point, so there may be some stuff left in the patch that is his. You can use F1 to adjust the gain of the amp, to find the right spot between clean and crunch.

There are two versions with different amp models, because I like the Clean Twin model better then the Pro Crunch in this patch. The first model does not have a lot of headroom though. So you may end up using the second one.

Brent Flash

#7
Thanks sixeight!
I never found that spot because I never turned the pre-amp gain all the way up. However I was looking for a little more bite. The problem with these type patches is they don't translate well to other system and this is the whole purpose of my experiment is to try to figure out how much the different pickup sensitivities and pickups will affect a patch like this.

Did either of my patches play clean when you pick soft and then as you pick harder, get crunchier? And was it fairly natural or did you have to play too soft to get the clean sound?

Here is another version that I think will work better.
Anyone who tries it please post how it works for you.

Patch Below


sixeight

QuoteDid either of my patches play clean when you pick soft and then as you pick harder, get crunchier? And was it fairly natural or did you have to play too soft to get the clean sound?

Yes, it does, but I find the dynamic function react unnatural when you compare it with what a real amp does. I have been playing with the dynamic function myself, because I wanted to have a patch that went from clean to a completely overdriven Marshall sound. I posted the patch below. Tried to solve the slow response back to clean sound with a creative Control Assign (input level setting the release time to 0 on very low volume), so when you mute the guitar you are immediately back to the clean sound. But still it is not perfect. And jamming along with some blues tracks (www.bluesblast.com) the simple amp patches seem to work better in the way they respond.

Brent Flash

Quote from: sixeight on July 12, 2008, 11:54:05 AM
Yes, it does, but I find the dynamic function react unnatural when you compare it with what a real amp does. I have been playing with the dynamic function myself, because I wanted to have a patch that went from clean to a completely overdriven Marshall sound. I posted the patch below. Tried to solve the slow response back to clean sound with a creative Control Assign (input level setting the release time to 0 on very low volume), so when you mute the guitar you are immediately back to the clean sound. But still it is not perfect. And jamming along with some blues tracks (www.bluesblast.com) the simple amp patches seem to work better in the way they respond.
Would you tell me what your pickup sensitivity settings are. My sensitivity setting are in the 20s and below. My Carlton335 patches work really well on my system. With great dynamics and emulate what Larry is doing on the video almost perfectly. I am still trying to tweak the crunch a little but dynamically it works on my system. I am trying to figure out why it does not on some others. Most say it is hard to get the clean sound but I find it very easy. I am pretty sure it has something to do with pickup sensitivity and am trying to figure out a way to help others achieve the patch performance I am getting.

sixeight

QuoteWould you tell me what your pickup sensitivity settings are.

Sensitivity is around 40. A little higher on the 1st and 6th string, because I have the GK2A on a Charvel guitar, the distance is more on those strings. Just for fun I added a little recording of three patches. First part is FlashLarryC335C, second one is LarryC335 and the last one is MorphTwinMashall2, which I added as well as a patch. I wonder if this will sound different on your setup.

Brent Flash

Quote from: sixeight on July 12, 2008, 12:44:27 PM
Sensitivity is around 40. A little higher on the 1st and 6th string, because I have the GK2A on a Charvel guitar, the distance is more on those strings. Just for fun I added a little recording of three patches. First part is FlashLarryC335C, second one is LarryC335 and the last one is MorphTwinMashall2, which I added as well as a patch. I wonder if this will sound different on your setup.
I can't get my system to react like your recording. Even though the MorphTwinMarshall2 started out as my FlashLarryC335 with your variation on the Dynamics I had a hard time getting the crunch to come through.

One more experiment and I'm done with it.

This one I created with the sensitivity setting up over 40. If anyone is still interested in letting me know how it works, here it is.
Patch below


sixeight

QuoteIf anyone is still interested in letting me know how it works, here it is.

This one does respond better then the last one, but still the bite sounds a little unnatural to me. Like its not  the same amp. It looks like the dynamic patches are the hardest to share.

I thought of one variation with I have attached, using one amp and compression (maybe compression helps in getting the dynamics straight on different setups) and an input pedal on the gain of the amp to compensate for the compression. This expands tonal range between clean and bite. But probably the settings of the input pedal (ASSIGN 1) will have to be adjusted for each setup.

Brent Flash

Hey sixeight, I like that, could you do it with the B GTR Channel. I like its tone better. (Cleaner, Browner) Also your levels are way up there compared to any other patches. Did you know that? Not that it matters but they all clip my system and I don't have that problem with others. Well, most others. :)

The control from the input is a neat way to do it. I would like it a little cleaner when soft. Maybe we could put an input control on the amp level too so when the pre-amp gain goes down the level goes up and visa vera. Think that would work?

I tried it a little but don't have time to mess with that too much today.

Brent Flash

Quote from: Brent Flash on July 12, 2008, 02:05:48 PM
One more experiment and I'm done with it.
Ok, I lied.

This one may do it. And then I think we will have another version from sixeight that will work too.

Then, do you guys think we should delete the ones we were experimenting with or leave them for those wanting to delve into this to see.

Patch below (maybe the final one of this topic who knows! :o

sixeight

Quoteshould delete the ones we were experimenting with or leave them

It may be best to leave them, because they do not work on all systems. Here is the last version of the patch. I think I like the last one I did better, but it all depends on your setup what will turn out best.

Brent Flash

#16
Quote from: sixeight on July 13, 2008, 11:04:45 AM
It may be best to leave them, because they do not work on all systems. Here is the last version of the patch. I think I like the last one I did better, but it all depends on your setup what will turn out best.
I like it!
I had to turn the mixer volume back down to around 27 so it would not clip but I like it.

You know patches like this are going to give everyone a problem unless we figure out a way to kinda standardize our string sensitivity settings. I have two GK setup settings that I use for most everything. My number one setting has the string sensitivity setting around 20. The reason I do this is with a lot of my high gain guitar patches they seem to distort the input of the VG. Not the amp but a nasty distortion so I use a lower string sensitivity. The problem with using it for everything is it has a hard time making the synth models speak. So my number two GK setting has the string sensitivity set around 40. And all the synth patches sound better. On these patches we have been working on the hotter setting seems to sound best. Do any of you have this problem or have notices this?


A2theT

Brent Flash,

I've clearly overlooked this post and its a very valuable one.  Larry's video on picking dynamics vs. amp response is an excellent piece of instruction for anyone interested in this level of playing control. I can hardly wait to try out these patches.

Cheers!
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

notnomiistakes

#18
from this link under '335 set up' in the left pane at the 4:20 mark on the video his guitar tech says '....the pick ups get remagnatized periodically just to keep their power.....'.  Can someone explain what he means and how it's done. Do all guitar pick ups need to be remagnitized including single coil?  This is the first first I've heard of this.
at the 4:20
http://mr335.tv/index.html?channel=rig&videofile=mr335/rig/335setup

Elantric

I used to work at Valley Arts 1980-1986, and personally remagnetized Larry Carltons pickups about every 2 years  - using a machine similar to this:
http://www.glguitars.com/factorytour/tour-page5/tour5.asp


It makes the pickups respond like new - its a matter of personal taste.  Larry's pickups were stock 1967 era Gibson pickups
With a radio shack digital volt / Ohm Meter  -  the Neck pickup measured 7.32k ohms, Bridge PU measured 7.03kohms.


 





notnomiistakes

#20
Thanks Elantric
So the PUs lose there magnetism over time.  Personal taste issue but how do you know if you would benefit. Single coil strat too?


maxdaddy

Elantric
how would you measure the before and after results of the "re-magnetization" process?

Elantric

#22
My observations of the pickups after remagnetization.

They became a bit louder and brighter. I used to do the same procedure for the guy in REO Speedwagon ( Gary Ritchrath), and I found his tone not too appealing. Performing this procedure too often also increases the magnetic damping of the strings - killing the sustain out of the Guitar. At Stage volume, 335s inherently sustain  a bit better than the competiton.   Tone is a balancing act, Larry could play a $90 Chinese Squire and still sound like Larry Carlton. He uses Fender Super Bullet strings .010 - 46, which are polished round wound, like GHS Gus strings, they are less Squeaky to finger noise in the studio.

notnomiistakes

thanks Elantric - so I'll never do it or have it done

maxdaddy

Elantric,
that's cool... but, subjective observations aside, were there any measureable differences before and after?

thx