Fishman Triple Play COSM Type Modeling?

Started by Bob Kay, April 29, 2013, 10:37:30 AM

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germanicus

Quote from: Elantric on May 01, 2013, 09:18:32 AM
Yes  please do! Many here use (or are learning) Ableton Live.

Yes I would appreciate this as well!
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

volts3300

Also point taken about pinch harmonics and sliding and the great Billy Gibbons. I was just speaking on raw tone of the samples and acuracy of their triggering. To be honest I set off to see if I could set up a gibby from my super strat and got real happy when I heard the tone. I guess when it comes down to it it realy does end up sounding like someone is playing a lws paul on a keyboard. Just hadn't thought that deeply about it. Its a new piece of gear and its still got a lot of showroom shine and new car smell to it in my head.

Elantric

Thanks!! Myself, and many others may find your files valuable.

QuoteIs there anything special I need to know to get the files to the forum?

Put them into a Zip file and reply here in this thread  - be sure to click on the link to  "Attachments and other options" on the the lower left, and upload your Zip file containing (Ableton *.ALS file) 



Orren Merton

Quote from: aliensporebomb on May 01, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
Lots of people say it's terrible and then they hear me in a live setting playing what sounds like a tube amp with realistic feedback response and touch sensitivity and they go "where's your guitar amp" and I just point at the VG-99.  Anyway.....

Yeah, but you're really good at it, sound great (I've heard your YouTube stuff!), and know what you're doing. So your opinion doesn't count!  :P

Being serious: I would be one of those people who thinks that COSM "ain't all that," and I've written as much in reviews. I owned the VG-88 and the GT-10, and reviewed and then bought for myself the GR-55. I've reviewed the VG-99 (but had to return it...sniff...review units are loaners...). My issue is this:

It's not that it isn't possible to "deep tweak" COSM guitar amp simulations to sound authentic. It's that over the years, Line 6, IK Multimedia, Peavey (ReValver), Native Instruments, and on the high end Kemper and Fractal, have created algorithms that sound incredibly amp like and realistic right out of the box.

A perfect example, to me (and yeah, I'm into heavy ;) ) is the Native Instruments standalone effects simulation called Rammfire (based off the Triple Recto rigs in use by Rammstein) vs. COSM. Basically, Richard Z. Kruspe's Rammstein massive guitar sound is that hyper heavy, multi-tracked sextuple-recto sound, while still retaining "air" at the top end, and volume knob dynamics for less distorted chording.

The Rectifier patches that come with the VG-88, the GT-10, the GR-55, and as I recall, the VG-99 sound like totally compressed dynamic-less white noise. Various single sounds may be "recto-ish" but it certainly doesn't respond anything like a real recto, which I can attest sounds sizzle and compressed but still has top end, dynamics, and breathes. Is it possible to take the COSM amps and effects and build yourself a "Rammstein" rig that is just as thunderous while still being dynamic with your volume knob, having "air" at the top end, etc? It probably is. I've no doubt that if you or Bill Rupert or someone who really knows the VG-99 up and down could build it—and probably without using the "recto" sim itself, but other sims that will get you close, and then other processors, or layering, etc.

But the NI Rammfire plug-in is there, out of the box—it sounds great, dynamic, crushing. And you can still customize everything to your own personal taste, it's fully tweakable, with it's own control room, individual module parameters, etc. But the presets get you so close you can taste it, and then tweak from there.

There is definitely something to be said for knowing your instrument up and down. You clearly know COSM well can really make it sing. I know a guitarist in Japan who can do that with his VG-88, too. Clearly, the technology isn't "crap" or that wouldn't be possible. But for a guitarist who wants to go digital, but also doesn't want to have to deep tweak to get the best out of the unit, I would absolutely not recommend any of the COSM units. I'd recommend either a Line 6 HD, Kemper, or Fractal unit.

Orren

Elantric

QuoteI'd recommend either a Line 6 HD, Kemper, or Fractal unit.

It all comes down to what are you trying to accomplish. None of the above alone can accomplish the principal features of VG-8, VG-88, VG-99 like  Alt Tunings,  Polyphonic string splits with separate sounds on different strings, Guitar modeling,  for some examples. 

Orren Merton

Quote from: Elantric on May 01, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
It all comes down to what are you trying to accomplish. None of the above alone can accomplish the principal features of VG-8, VG-88, VG-99 like  Alt Tunings,  Polyphonic string splits with separate sounds on different strings, Guitar modeling,  for some examples.

That's exactly what I state in all my reviews. I think that the COSM models of guitars and tunings and synth/organ/non-guitar sounds are excellent and relatively unique (only the Variax stuff comes close, but it still doesn't do the PWM model stuff). But I've never thought the COSM straight up guitar amplifier emulations were nearly as easy to dial in as the competition. And some COSM units such as the BOSS GT and single-pedal digital combo amps only offer the amp modeling, which is the weak stuff IMO.

Orren

Elantric

#31
QuoteBut I've never thought the COSM straight up guitar amplifier emulations were nearly as easy to dial in as the competition. And some COSM units such as the BOSS GT and single-pedal digital combo amps only offer the amp modeling, which is the weak stuff IMO.

Agreed!
Thats why myself as a VG-99 owner since 2007 I bought a Kemper!

Luckily folks who own both VG-99 and KPA can marry both via an SPDIF cable, and employ the VG-99 COSM Alt Tunings and COSM Guitar Modeling, then feed the VG-99 COSM Guitar Output to KPA via SPDIF to apply the Kemper's  more modern up to date Tube Amp Emulation. Not cheap if purchased new today (while you can still find VG-99's), but if you already own a VG-99, a KPA makes a great upgrade!

thebrushwithin

We will find gold in combining different technologies. I know the combi of VG99 and Kemper is in another league, than either of these two used alone. Different units have different strengths. The trick is to stop thinking in terms of one machine or program does it all. None of them do, and I doubt ever will. This is why people put pedals in front of their real tube amps. This is the main advantage the VG99 has over the VG8, and VG88, IMO, two COSM engines. Actually, playing a VG8 and a VG88 together can wield some incredible sounds. Or running two guitar plug ins simultaneously. Experimentation is key, with no rules of engagement. Creating our own "parallel" universe of sound, and ignoring sounds of the past, even the best ones, that get us excited. Finding something new, using combinations, and maybe just refining old tried and true sounds. Today's technology is really amazing for the electric guitarists!!

volts3300

I have been using a laptop for a guitar pre since guitar rig 3. I wss always interested in guitar 2 midi because I learned how to use midi sequencing inside cakewalk sonar to trigger vurtual instruments. I was just about to buy a gr55 when the namm vids for triple play came out and since my primary focus was guitar 2 midi I opted for the lower price and wireless connectivity. I am almost ashamed to admit I never investigated the other capabilities of the roland line. Ah well, FTP is a great guitar to midi converter. Maybe next tax return I get ill pick up a vg series product.

shawnb

Elantric -
I suggest a new category for downloads for "FTP".  To include things like the Ableton templates.  Also, I have that vaguely Vista-friendly (if buggy) .exe also. 
   Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp


musicman65

Orren,

You've got my total respect and I agree with your assessment that COSM Amp modeling is weak in its raw untweaked state....therefore, presets suck accordingly.

The whole purpose of the VG99 is massive creativity within its controls. If a "creative" guitarist is only creative on the fretboard, your suggestions are perfect. Perhaps raising the bar and challenging guitarist to treat the entire signal chain as the instrument and forget about or at least get past the presets and take a deeper dive, would inspire many new guitarist.

bd

jassy

Excuse me for disagreeing, but I do not agree that Roland amp emulations are so bad and are so old fashioned.
These days I'm playing with the idea of ??buying a FTP and returning to reconsider wearing a laptop to play with my band. So I've been 3 or 4 days testing various plugins guitar (guitar rig, amplitube, etc.) and  I have not found that those amp emulations were "more musical" than my vg99/gr55. In fact the Roland seemed more organic and natural to me, more ultimately musical. Keep in mind that I'm not interested in metal music or similar things and use clean, saturated (no in excess) and like very much that territory between clean an distorted but in a organic way and I do not see that n those fields competition  have evolved so much has lately is being said here. I had Pod and Podfarm and never liked (I have not tested the latest models).
I have an Axe-Fx 1 and I recon that this technology has the edge and is somewhat superior to Roland  but not the rest of the competition and I think Roland has much to say yet and still remains at the top of music technology. 
Not to mention everything else that include high-tech gadgets like the GR55 or VG99. I think the VG100 would be great, only hope that Roland is not satisfied only to mix technologies and adds some advances that I'm sure they are able to do.
One thing is very clear, there are no two guitarists identical.

Kevin M

In my opinion the 99's amp emulations are quite acceptable, especially if you spend enough time tweaking them.

Bob Kay

Since it was my ignorance that started this thread I thought I would chime in with my take on these interesting topics.

I feel like I found the holly grail with the GR-55 / GC1 Strat & Ableton Push (https://www.ableton.com/en/push/)

No warts! I can't bear the thought of hanging a FTP off my axe after having the integrated GK and controls.

Is the FTP necessary anymore? I became interested in guitar-to-midi because, like most of us, I wanted to play all these awesome VSTs and arrange in a DAW but didn't want to learn the keyboard. I found the YRG G1 & 2 has perfect pitch and 0 latency but lousy velocity sensitivity. The GR-55 has better velocity, some latency but some glitches in note tracking. The Ableton Push is like a YRG in tap mode on steroids! The Push in note mode is arranged in 4th like a guitar and you can set it to any interval and key. You can play in chromatic mode like a regular keyboard (good for chords) and each chord has the same shape no matter what key you're in. Or "In Key" where the keyboard is collapsed and excludes notes outside that key for riffing without knowing what the hell you're doing. The buttons also light up when they are played or from midi input so I can put the Push in any scale and any key and see if I am playing it correctly on the guitar through the GR-55. Very connected for learning music. Within a day you can play all chords in any key and riff in any scale. It's ridiculous! I'll never be able to do that with a guitar but no VST sounds like a guitar so we have to keep playing! Ever notice that almost every instrument sounds good with midi except a guitar?

For live use, when you're not standing in front of a Push, the GR-55 with built in PCM beats the FTP with laptop in my book. If you have a laptop in your rig, hell throw the Push in there too!

I think the Variax beats the G5 hands down but I prefer Roland's external COSM solution with a real Fender to the JTV with all the built in electronics and battery requirements. I like that the axe is a passive device (until you plug in the 13-pin). I think the magnetic GK is a better solution for modeling magnetic pups than piezo (palm muting etc) and, even though the Variax acoustic sounds blow away COSM, they almost sounds like a sample and had an unrealistic sustain on the JTV 59 I had. I have a decent Takamine for recording and the GR-55 pulls of an acoustic without trying too hard like the Variax.

I plan on installing a BladeRunner and some Klien Jazzy Cat's into the GC1. Normally, I wouldn't put such low output pups in a main axe but with all the COSM humbuckers and preamp gain from the GR-55, I can put the most vintage sounding pup I can find in there.

I see posts saying the GR-55 with PCM is a dinosaur and a laptop loaded with VSTs is the future. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this but the GR-55 plays VSTs in addition to the internal PCM. Also, it has a 24 bit internal sound card with solid ASIO drivers in a rugged form factor which you'll need to play VSTs with anyway if you have a PC.

Also, there is COSM guitar models and COSM amp models and effects. The effects seem good and the amps/cabs are OK for having a portable all-in one box solution but my favorite is connect the USB, turn off the monitor, amp and cab and run Scuffham S-Gear (http://www.scuffhamamps.com)! Has anyone else tried this? I plug my Behringer Eurolive B205D into the GR-55. The monitor is 7 lbs, the size of a shoe box and the GR-55 with S-Gear makes it sound like a boutique tube amp with 150 watts!  :o

Bob Kay

That last bit of my post reminded me of this thought:

The GR-55 without Gumtown's Floorboard Editor would absolutely suck!

Cheers to Gumtown!  :D

Elantric

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

My own Ableton Push (ordered March 7th) is back ordered until mid June - nice to read your review !


Bob Kay

Quote from: Elantric on May 02, 2013, 01:35:02 PM
My own Ableton Push (ordered March 7th) is back ordered until mid June - nice to read your review !

That sucks! Not sure what happened with Akai. ??? I pre-ordered before the 5th from a vendor and was lucky to get my hands on one from the first batch.

It's a beautiful piece of kit and will be a game changer for recording guitarists. I'm trying to learn Live/Push but I find every time I plug in Push I record some musical idea. Push forces you to play your VST instruments and effects though Live with all the transport and looping controls at your fingertips instead of playing around with stand alone VSTs. You can make effect racks for your amp sims and map the encoders.

Check out S-Gear's free trial too if you haven't.

Elantric

#43
Quoterun Scuffham S-Gear (http://www.scuffhamamps.com)!

For FTP  users,  too bad (at this hour)  Scuffham S-Gear is not compatible with FTP - details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33220.msg246132#msg246132

Costas (GTAK developer who created the FTP GUI Control panel  / VST Host app ) wrote>
QuoteI just had a quick look at the scuffham website and the list of plugin formats supported on Mac are:
- AudioUnit, VST3.5 (32 and 64bit), AAX (ProTools 10 32bit)

At the moment the TriplePlay software only supports VST2 plugins, not VST3, so that might be why it is not showing up. But I have never heard of anyone supporting VST3 but not VST2 before, so it could be a typo, maybe check with them. If it is true then tell Fishman you would like either AU or VST3.5 support, if enough people ask...

Elantric

#44
A recent message from Marcelo Fragna seems appropriate to repost here
(Click here to read the entire message )
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33209.msg246231#msg246231

>We all love the Tripleplay, and many are selling their 13 pin gear,
>while others are working on a DIY method to use both
>https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8481.0


If one takes into account the midi side of things, I'd fully support that decision. However, if I owned a V system I wouldn't drop it, for a number of reasons. First, triggering midi synths with a guitar is very nice, but even with all of Andras's accomplishments, there's the limitation of the midi protocol itself. I think Roland's bet on modelling was wise in many aspects, specially in translating the overall playability of the guitar into a synth voicing. Midi guitar is very, very limited in that respect. In some ways, playing midi guitar affects/re-shapes your playing entirely, and I find myself sounding like a dry keyboard when midi stuff is not plugged in. I like and use midi a lot, specially when I do controller stuff in the guitar -- keyswitching, moving filters around, program changing, sending CCs that toggle and control effetcs, controlling parameters with velocity, and even PitchBend messages that make sliders go up and down. But with all the
refinements I have done on my own, still I can't make my midi guitar sound like a real, organic synth. The closest I have seen to that recently is KMI's StringPort, which among midi conversion and many other things has a synth engine that acts just like a GR300 or a synclavier. Not midi, though. Also, I have used a ton of guitar modelling software -- Amplitube, Guitar Rig, and even the much acclaimed Overloud, which is the best in my opinion -- but I still consider Roland's models to be quite nice sounding and better than every software I've ever used. And if you think that everything is contained in one box, I still consider VG/GR systems very good.

Also concerning midi guitar, up until the 90s you had a plethora of synths and samplers what worked flawlessly with the guitar to midi converters. I owned an Axon NGC77 with the internal soundcard (Yamaha DB-50XG)

http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/Yamaha_DB50XG/

and did almost anything I needed with it. Plugging that to a Roland module was easy. Even scoring movies was easy with PC software like Cakewalk (version 2!!). I also owned a Proteus 2000 and an Akai Z4 (the best hardware sampler ever made, IMHO), and using them was a breeze. But when Terratec re-launched the Axon, and now when Andras first contacted me regarding the issues he was having with TP (then called WGS6000), it became clear that midi guitar and current DAW and softsynths are a high risk marriage with no prenup! This is one of the reasons Terratec dropped the Axon (very poor sales overall and no market for their OEM kit, then called "Diguit" and used 5-pin midi and firewire ports, very nice!). This is the reason why Costas wrote Gtak to begin with. If
you consider that I spend 150+ hours just to find ways to have Logic behave properly when controlled by Triple Play, you get a measure of the problems. Ableton Live is not easy, though much more manageable than Logic. Cubase is better but far from perfect. Digital Performer is hopeless. So, when I visited Fishman's HQ in Andover last year, I engaged in the job of telling them not to release TP unless it could perform decently out of the box, or they'd screw it completely. And a lot of TP's shipping delay has to do with it, although not all -- but I can't disclose those details here, sorry.

Finally, there's the issue of playing live with a laptop/desktop computer. We see artists doing that all the time, but they play on big stages, with security nearby, far from beer spills. I had to first invest in a hard case for the laptop and a rack for the other equipment, then in locks for the laptop security hole and to tie the case itself to the amp handle, on top of a stand and a fan I had to use. When I almost got nuked by someone jumping on stage and nearly dumping all her beer into my laptop, I decided to get a bigger rack and house a mini desktop there instead, controlled by a 1 rack unit KVM keyboard and screen, which added another 35 pounds to my already heavy rig. So, being a midi guitar player with a laptop is not that easy or romantic. Mark Schonbrun himself -- playing in fancy East Coast jazz clubs -- said in his website that had to tie his laptop to avoid losing it.

So, I'd caution V guitar users to hold back on that and only switch completely when they reach a point where they can accomplish everything they want with a midi system alone. Also, if the guitar is piezo equipped, adding a TP won't cause the issues ShawnB has dealt with.


Sorry for my lengthy 2 cents. :)

All the best,

Marcelo

musicman65

#45
That is exactly my perspective as well. With the sheer number of post and detailed complexities of using the FTP with a PC, I've all but talked myself out of wanting one! The biggest issue with making a GK splitter for me is losing the alt tuning that Roland provides. True the Event Processor can solve that but there's widget #4 that I'd have to add to the chain in order to get FTP to work with hardware synths like Roland does.

I'm trying to think all this through before committing to the investment of FTP, USB host, event processor and custom designed splitter. I will have to want it really bad....

bd

Elantric

Quote
I'm trying to think all this through before committing to the investment of FTP, USB host, event processor and custom designed splitter. I will have to want it really bad....

And with any luck, the 2014 version of the FTP Software  / firmware will be a step closer to what we all really want.
(Assignable String Transpose, IOS Ipad FTP Control apps, 64bit VST support, 64bit Apple AU support, etc)   

baatkarlo

#47
Take the TriplePlay MIDI OUT and drive it to VG-99 MIDI IN from a PC to get COSM. Its that simple. You don't need anything else, just the same computer you're attaching the Fishman USB stick to, where you attach a VG-99 or GR-55 via another USB port. Both have two MIDI ports each, and use one for control and another to get MIDI hex signals flowing.

If you want a fancier solution, drive each FTP or VG-99/GK-3 string signal into a separate track using MONO mode based MIDI channels (one channel per MIDI track, eg: ch 11 to 16 = string 1 to 6) in your DAW, then assign a VST of your choice to get to any MIDI sound you want. I use Ableton Live 8 studio to get to whatever sound like that. Save this setup as a template and you'll live a lot longer repeating this with different VST's and saving different projects with a similar approach.

Check out my song "Daiichi-2" on http://soundcloud.com/rajiv-mistry - you will hear this in full effect as the entire song is one guitar and gazillion MIDI instruments layered on and fading in and out. I used a VG-99/GK-3 in this case.

You can also do the reverse using the guitar to MIDI function in VG-99 to drive Tripleplay MIDI based patches. and are two videos by Roland Canada that explain how this would work. Note that there are some really good tips on string sensitivity and MIDI use in these videos that apply to FTP as well.
Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play.

Elantric

#48
QuoteTake the TriplePlay MIDI out and drive it to VG-99 MIDI IN from a PC to get COSM. Its that simple.


Couple issues / problems with your hookup scenario.


1) VG-99 and GR-55 do NOT respond to external MIDI Note on/off commands, neither do the VG-8 or VG-88. 

2) Roland Hexaphonic COSM Modeling (as used in the VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GR-55 ) relies on a pure 6 channel Analog Input (via Roland "GK" 13 pin cable) to achieve the near zero latency performance and dynamic response which is greater (and faster) than any 8 bit digital MIDI system - including Fishman Tripleplay.   


Suggest Read
The poor misunderstood VG-99
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6083.0

mshor

A few thoughts on this idea.  Like other people have pointed out, it would not be possible to do direct signal processing based sounds through the Tripleplay; there simply is not any way to send that level of signal wirelessly from the unit.  I think though that something approximates the COSM style effects of the Roland GR units might actually be possible if Fishman were to add a few salient features to its firmware (and I would be very happy if they did), and appropriate synth patches were available to take advantage of them.

The main advantage of the COSM approach seems to be latency / tracking effectiveness, and expressivity.  The tracking issue could probably be improved a little by general improvements to the Tripleplay, it would be hard to equal COSM in MIDI in that respect I think.  The expressiveness piece seems to me where Fishman could go a lot farther to approximate the benefits of COSM.  Currently, the Tripleplay sends Note On, Note Off, and Pitchbend signals.  The pitch bend is the only signal which dynamically tracks the guitar playing, giving a feeling of expressiveness that would be hard to emulate on a keyboard.

There are some other qualities of the guitar note that could be tracked just like the pitch bend, and would probably add a lot to the sound.  The first and easiest would be the volume of a note.  Having just the Note On, and a rather arbitrary Note Off cutoff does not at all match the envelope of the guitar sound, making the Tripleplay kind of unexpressive compared to the COSM approach.  Since the DSP is already tracking volume, it should be easy for Fishman to program the unit to send a continues volume parameter on each channel.  This could be done like a breath controller, and even use some of the same synths.

Second, on a guitar, the harmonic content of a string varies, and Tripleplay currently does not account for this.  There could be a simple harmonic content continues controller, again transmitted like the pitch bend.  This could do some very cool stuff, and could be applied to control cuttoff on a synth, or actually morph a sound into a harmonic version.  This I think would be an amazing addition to the Tripleplay, with sounds to take advantage of it.









Quote from: Bob Kay on April 29, 2013, 10:37:30 AM
My question for the uber-techies here: Since (I assume) the pitch to midi is taking place on the computer, is there a possibility of hacking the FTP to create our own COSM/Variax type tones from the hexaphonic analog signals being received? Perhaps someone can hook into it and get it into Reaktor or Max as a proof of concept?

I still find hexaphonic tone modeling to be more interesting and useful than pitch to midi. Having control of our own COSM tones would be amazing! Only then could Fishman pry my GR-55 from my hands! ;)