OSC Synth Block Issues - false triggers - ineffective dynamic filtering

Started by Nobulusprime, October 20, 2022, 12:24:02 AM

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Nobulusprime

As an example of what I'm talking about please see the chaotic and rather grumpy video!  :D - main issues start at around 3mins 47


If anyone can demonstrate that the OSC block causes non of the issues in the video please post a demo of your results - using no string dampeners.

Brak(E)man

This was my first impression of the OSC synth in SY-1000 , still valid today.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?msg=201988

(I can't really vote since the option I'd choose isn't on the voting board.)





swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Nobulusprime

Quote from: Brak(E)man on October 20, 2022, 01:09:36 AMThis was my first impression of the OSC synth in SY-1000 , still valid today.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?msg=201988

(I can't really vote since the option I'd choose isn't on the voting board.)







(I can't really vote since the option I'd choose isn't on the voting board.) Happy to add an option let me know what you want
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?msg=201988 - I remember this when you first posted it, sounds great

I think what I and others have experienced with the OSC (and pitch to midi) is that normally inaudible rogue 'ghost notes' particularly ones from open strings sound out really loud on the OSC and in pitch to midi.

Try this example with no dampening - play D on the A string at the 5th fret remove your finger and you'll get a loud A note on the OSC (9 times out of 10) and that note is acoustically inaudible. Simply put the SY1000 amplifies unintended ghost notes.

For me the issues are as follows:
A. The SY1000 pitch to midi detection algorithm is too sensitive
B. The SY1000 then dynamically amplifies any unintended ghost notes
C. The SY1000's velocity filter is ineffective mainly because of point B in that the amplified ghost note is too loud to be filtered.

To me this seems like a relatively simple problem though I'm not sure how complex the fix is.



Brak(E)man

Quote from: Bluesbird on October 20, 2022, 05:55:58 AMThe same algorithm is at work with the OSC as is with the pitch to midi. If you recall, a thread got locked discussing these issues and the Boss representative I communicated with ultimately came to the conclusion that nothing was wrong. I provided charts, glitch conditions, audio examples, and was told everything was fine and that it was my fault. As a result, I won't be participating in this thread. Have fun.

I think that thread got locked because of another reason though...
But the boss response has been like that for a long time unfortunately.
I'd wish that they start listening. I think they're doing themselves a disservice by acting that way.

To expand on your post about osc and gtm.
GP-10 has the best gtm that I've come across in a unit that's not dedicated only to this task but it's OSC trig is worse than the SY-1000 OSC imho.
There's something slightly off with that...
I'm not sure what but there goes  ::)

The settings for the OSC aren't working as I'd expect.

QuoteThe one thing that's odd and might be of importance is the low velocity cut.
With a higher value there should be less misstrigs but I have to turn it off.

QuoteHalfway up , then I get misstrigs in the form of no trigs.
Which is odd , I have the GK sensitivity high compared to what's recommended on this forum and I pick hard.
Off or at 1 on low velocity cut,  that's it , past that no go...
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

admin

For the record i find the SY-1000 OSC Synth a useless glitch fest when attempting fast runs

Slow chordal string pads are all its good for.


the prior thread was locked because it had escalated into verbal attacks between members 

A few of the zingers have been removed

Just obey the rules of VGuitarforums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3030.0

Brak(E)man

I got stuck making a 12 string 335 patch with some weird fx + possible alt tune +12 on top.
What a delight that the warbles where a firmware issue as I'm sure the OSC and GTM are as well.

After fiddling around a bit with the OSC synth on a fretted guitar with sustainer.
( I have to admit I have not paid it too much attention before, now I have to)

My experience is that generally it triggers fine for me but
I'm comparing it to 1987 years midi trig.
I don't get much miss-trigs in any of the modes even with the sustainer on.
But the dynamic cut off level isn't working, except from 4 to off, preferably off
and I get more trigs off course the further down I turn it.
At 7 I have a hard time getting a trig at all and at 9 ... it's almost gone
unless I play power chords Pete Townsend style.
My GK sensitivity settings are high I pick hard and I don't use much legato.

Trying you example with 5th fret I sometimes get a open a trig if I just lift my fingers, but not when playing. I dampen the open string without thinking of it so..
I do think that the dynamic level isn't working well.


I'd have to check some more but at the moment I'd say that leads, really fast or slow runs, works fine and pads more than ok. And I'm using it with fx or without, doesn't matter it's about the same.
That being said, I think that how we use the guitar/synth musically changes things.
(By that I don't mean the technique of dampen and not the guitar either etc .
at least not too much to cause the problems )

And I'm more than certain that it's a big deal for many ,
like the warbles where for me.
(The example that Aliensporebomb put up on harmonics with warbles doesn't come close to what I had. I would never have tried harmonics, just playing plain chords where impossible.)

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

philjynx

Quote from: admin on October 20, 2022, 10:47:10 AMA few of the zingers have been removed
What does that mean?
I did an interweb search on zinger and got a lot of differing results. Hostess

pasha811

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Nobulusprime

Quote from: pasha811 on October 20, 2022, 10:29:29 PMCan I reply with GP10?
Yes - I think it is a very similar issue with the OSC on the GP 10, probably worse as I recall. The OSC GP10 would suddenly cut out or have a miss trigger that would hang

pasha811

Quote from: Nobulusprime on October 20, 2022, 11:05:10 PMYes - I think it is a very similar issue with the OSC on the GP 10, probably worse as I recall. The OSC GP10 would suddenly cut out or have a miss trigger that would hang

Done, thanks!
My answer (I have GP10) should have been in between:
Usable - for pads in polyphonic mode with slow & careful playing
Usable in most circumstances - for leads and pads in all modes - chromatic, mono and poly
So I had to choose the latter. I can post some examples later today.
It's like a wild yellow cat that can bite you anytime. You have to be careful but once you find your balance it becomes acceptable (including the scares on your body  ::) ) I use it for slow pads in chromatic mode and mono mode for solos. Poly not my friend. I was able to use it in my recordings and it did not require re-recording except in a couple of cases. More on this later. Compared to VG99 wired to JV1010 as Pitch to MIDI, OSC sounds more 'fluid' but it has a tendency to mistrigger or exhibit the 'drunk' player syndnrome (as the sustain fades the pitch goes down) especially in pads when you are not super careful with chords changing. When the left hand leaves the fretboard you have to be super clean or you have to learn inversions. However with a lot of practice you can reach a good point. All in all my initial experience with OSC was so terrible that from 2015 to 2019 I didn't use it. Then I followed hints on this forum, learned to program it for my playing and my experience changed in a way that it's now usable. Ainsoph work on GP10 is outstanding and it was the starting point for me (thanks again). I had the SY1000 as a test unit for a week before giving it back in July. One of the reason was that OSC performed worse than GP10 and I got ALT-Tunings artifacts and warbles. (I could not change FW so I had to use 1.05). Hope this helps. Expect more. I like the video in the analysis a lot. I will try to do something similar.

Back to you later

Ciao
Pasha

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Nobulusprime

Quote from: pasha811 on October 20, 2022, 11:25:05 PMI had the SY1000 as a test unit for a week before giving it back in July. One of the reason was that OSC performed worse than GP10 and I got ALT-Tunings artifacts and warbles. (I could not change FW so I had to use 1.05). Hope this helps. Expect more. I like the video in the analysis a lot. I will try to do something similar.


Maybe with you're brief experience with the OSC on the SY1000 you could change your vote to what your experience was with it, especially if it was one of the factors in you sending the unit back. EDIT It won't allow me to open this up for more votes

My experience is like an inversion of yours. I had a GP10 on a couple of occasions but only for a few weeks. My memory of the OSC was that it was prone to drop outs but probably less glitching and better for legato. I also think it might have been a touch quicker than the SY1000.

There are others on this thread who still have both units who could do a better comparison. I've been working with pitch midi units for 30 years since 1992 (GR1) and the SY1000 pitch to midi and OSC is clearly the worst experience I have had with any previous unit.

pasha811

Quote from: Nobulusprime on October 21, 2022, 12:34:57 AMMy memory of the OSC was that it was prone to drop outs but probably less glitching and better for legato. I also think it might have been a touch quicker than the SY1000.

Your memory is my day by day now. Agree 100%. When testing SY1000 I used OSC to add to Dynamic Synth patches tails of 'strings' like and more movement in parallel with another instrument. While overall it sounded good when using OSC the strange behaviors appeared.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

As promised here is my example of GP10 OSC usage. Some sloppy playing here and there but I hope you'll get the idea.
Didn't find a way to upload an MP3 so I had to make my first ever youtube video... sure I am not a great director  ::)


Ciao!
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Headless68


chrish

Watched part of vid. That piano tone sounds really good especially when you bend the lead tones. And no doubt the osc synths reacts like a guitar pitch to midi triggered synth.

However, my SY1000 doesn't react as poorly as your example so I can see why you want Boss to "get it right" for every guitar brand and setup.

I did hear some midi madness also with the Triple play and GR30 when you strummed the Cm chord.

I also know that when I spit my GK guitar into the VG99,the note fade out  digital garble increased in a similar fashion.

Are you using one hex pup and splitting it three ways?

Just curious about the entire signal chain and if you get similar results straight into the sy1000?

chrish

Audio examples all strummed minor chords using osc synth from 3 factory patches. Wilcox Atlantis hexfx directly into SY1000 [no splits].                                            It is interesting to note that when the GK settings were set to "system", the notes froze up the same way a midi stuck note would freeze. strumming all six strings would cause it to unfreeze similar to the way I unstick midi note freeze ups to external synth modules. Using the GK settings dialed in to this guitar did not cause any stuck notes. Note that I do not get these same results using a GK pickup equipped guitar, way worse. Also glitches will occur if my technique is not absolutly clean.

Nobulusprime

Just as an update - I've heard back from Roland on this issue. They are suggesting a factory reset...

I'm 99.9% sure that this will not solve the issue and would be a bit of a pain saving all of my patches to reinstall them.

Anyone else tried a factory reset? The SY1000 was having problems with the OSC block straight out of the box when it was factory reset.

Nobulusprime

So after several exchanges with a very polite Roland guy and performing a full factory reset to no avail as predicted, I left them with this email

Thanks Huw

This issue has been ongoing for nearly 3 years now. Other more pressing issues with the Dynamic Synth and Alternate tunings on the unit have taken precedence and have been resolved with Firmware updates.

The OSC and pitch to midi flaw needs to be recognised as an issue that needs to be resolved. Roland were the first company to address the issue of converting Guitar (pitch) to midi but we are now at a point where their latest flagship unit has the worst pitch to midi performance of the last 35 years in terms of stability and that's saying something.

We have beta tested firmware updates for the SY1000 over on VGuitar forums previously and would be happy to do the same again.
What I'd like at this point is:
  • An acknowledgement that there is an issue
  • A commitment to do something about it
  • An idea of a timeline to fix the issue
Thanks

Sean

NightSky

Hello Nobulusprime,

You wrote:
"I think what I and others have experienced with the OSC (and pitch to midi) is that normally inaudible rogue 'ghost notes' particularly ones from open strings sound out really loud on the OSC and in pitch to midi".

You call them ghost notes, I call them sympathetic string vibrations. On a purely acoustic instrument these sympathetic string vibrations are pleasing and reinforce the fundamental tone. On and electronic instrument they only create havoc and are very unpleasant! I am going to have to return my SY-1000 just for that reason... I hate it because I relly like putting a bass tone on my 5th and 6th strings on jazz gigs but can't take the loud overtones. They mak complex harmonies sounf like mud.

You wrote:
"For me the issues are as follows:
A. The SY1000 pitch to midi detection algorithm is too sensitive
B. The SY1000 then dynamically amplifies any unintended ghost notes
C. The SY1000's velocity filter is ineffective mainly because of point B in that the amplified ghost note is too loud to be filtered.

To me this seems like a relatively simple problem though I'm not sure how complex the fix is".

I completely argee with this. I've included an audio example attachment here.You cannot view this attachment.

stub

Those sympathetic vibrations are normal, so the SY-1000 essentially just needs to have a threshold below which to ignore.

Have you tried lowering the sensitivity of all strings in the setup?

Nobulusprime

Quote from: NightSky on December 16, 2022, 12:44:52 PMHello Nobulusprime,

You wrote:
"I think what I and others have experienced with the OSC (and pitch to midi) is that normally inaudible rogue 'ghost notes' particularly ones from open strings sound out really loud on the OSC and in pitch to midi".

You call them ghost notes, I call them sympathetic string vibrations. On a purely acoustic instrument these sympathetic string vibrations are pleasing and reinforce the fundamental tone. On and electronic instrument they only create havoc and are very unpleasant! I am going to have to return my SY-1000 just for that reason... I hate it because I relly like putting a bass tone on my 5th and 6th strings on jazz gigs but can't take the loud overtones. They mak complex harmonies sounf like mud.

You wrote:
"For me the issues are as follows:
A. The SY1000 pitch to midi detection algorithm is too sensitive
B. The SY1000 then dynamically amplifies any unintended ghost notes
C. The SY1000's velocity filter is ineffective mainly because of point B in that the amplified ghost note is too loud to be filtered.

To me this seems like a relatively simple problem though I'm not sure how complex the fix is".

I completely argee with this. I've included an audio example attachment here.You cannot view this attachment.

Hey Danny

I think we might be talking at slight cross purposes, though the problems may have similar origins. My problem is mainly to do natural, very quiet, open notes that ring when you lift your finger of a string. It could also be created through sympathetic resonances. My problem is about triggering midi events or notes that I can't filter out for pitch to midi out and the OSC synth. This is because the dynamic compression/sensitivity of the SY1000s pitch detection algorithm trumps the velocity filter making it next to useless. Sometimes I wish I could just get on a video call to the people at Roland/Boss but it appears to be an impenetrable wall.

As for your issue, I can certainly hear your problem and I understand its origins. I haven't experienced issues quite as bad as that but I can probably help. Do you use the Boss Tone Studio SY1000 editor? If If you do you send me over some of your patches I can try them out on my guitars and make some adjustments to the patch to potentially stop those rogue notes coming through.

If you don't have the editor I think the potential 3 solutions below might help - as follows:

1. In your Jazz bass setting have you set your top 4 strings to 0?? See screen shot
2. If your using your normal pick up without the pad sounds just turn down the GK pick up down on the top 4 strings - See screen shot
3. Use the dynamic synth to create you bass sound rather than the jazz bass (you can get decent bass tones out of this in the context your using). In this case use the layer function to reduce/remove notes above a certain pitch which you don't want to sound. see screen shot.

If you can send through a couple of patches that you are experiencing problems with and I'll have a play



You cannot view this attachment. You cannot view this attachment.  You cannot view this attachment. 
 

NightSky

Hi Nobulusprime

I think we might be talking at slight cross purposes, though the problems may have similar origins. Sometimes I wish I could just get on a video call to the people at Roland/Boss but it appears to be an impenetrable wall.
Yes, these do seem like different issues but may be related.

Sometimes I wish I could just get on a video call to the people at Roland/Boss but it appears to be an impenetrable wall
Me too!

Do you use the Boss Tone Studio SY1000 editor? If If you do you send me over some of your patches I can try them out on my guitars and make some adjustments to the patch to potentially stop those rogue notes coming through.
Yes, I do use the Boss Tone Studio and will send screen shots of a patch.

1. In your Jazz bass setting have you set your top 4 strings to 0?? See screen shot
Yes.. See screenshot
2. If your using your normal pick up without the pad sounds just turn down the GK pick up down on the top 4 strings - See screen shot
I hae the other ocillators turned off... see screenshot

3. Use the dynamic synth to create you bass sound rather than the jazz bass (you can get decent bass tones out of this in the context your using). In this case use the layer function to reduce/remove notes above a certain pitch which you don't want to sound. see screen shot.
I will try this again but didn't have much success on my first try.

If you can send through a couple of patches that you are experiencing problems with and I'll have a play

Will do!
Thanks for your help!
I am new to this forum, please let me know if you don't receive the screen shots. I tried to send two. My bass patch image and a sensitivity settings image

DannyYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment. 

NightSky

Looks like I need to return my SY-1000... I am still within my 45 day return period. It is just too sensitive for fingerstyle jazz on a nylon string guitar... I sure miss my old GR-1!!

Thank all of you for your support and willingness to help!

All the best
Danny


aliensporebomb

#23
Hi - thanks for sharing your patch info.  I created patch with classical guitar and bass on E and A and here was my little demo I did at around 4 am:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/acoustic-2022-122322-417-am

Guitar Fender Roland Ready strat with aftermarket Fender roasted maple neck with Fender Locking Tuners and Supervee Bladerunner trem bridge.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.