SY-1000 Owners Poll - DSP Alt Tuning results.

Started by admin, October 13, 2021, 01:33:59 PM

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chrish

#125
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on September 01, 2022, 07:37:47 PMIt is the wiggle stick on the Ibanez Jen guitar.
I often add vibrato to sustain chords.
that makes sense. Interesting though because I think I'm hearing an acoustic guitar, and not used to hearing a wammy bar on an acoutic sound.

Obviously the playing and composition are  excellent, I'm just critically listening to the machine itself since I no longer have one to test.

One of the themes of these threads is that the VG99 and VG8 are free of digital processing artifacts so why does the SY1000 warble. But I've found that the
VG8 does indeed warble and I sold my VG99 because my user experience wasn't the same as many others.  Too many digital artifacts as notes fade to silence.

I do hear something at 2:54/55 that sounds a bit like a digital artifact  and in also in a few other places as notes fade.

Nothing I would hear under normal circumstances, perhaps its the YT bit rate conversion.

TobyB had a good comment on another forum concerning these types of machines.

"use it's strengths and accept it's limitations"

chrish

#126
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on September 02, 2022, 10:35:53 AMThere isnt.
Your just looking for something to hate now.
If you listen to an orchestra for noise, you will hear people turning pages, coughing and farting.

 



Really Bill, a personal attack?

Yes all these machines make extraneous noise, that's the point. No need to get bent over it.

" perfect is the enemy of the good"

You also hit the red line on your solo (or YT conversion digital distortion) But I don't care, it still is a beautiful composition as I said before.

alexmcginness

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on September 02, 2022, 01:15:06 PMChris nothing personal at all!
Believe me please!

The SY-1000 does have some issue in the alt tune. It absolutely does.
So does the VG-99, but the 99 was superb and still is the best at it.

I got rid of most of my warbles on the SY-1000. It was due to the way the divided pickup was mounted to the body. There still are some, but I can work around them until it's fixed.
I do not use the hex pickup much anymore.


I can confirm that this may be so. I have several guitars with a GK-3 on them. They are all warble free on the GP-10 except one. Sadly for me its the one I use to take on the rod when I was giging. Its a Traveler Escape MKII Steel. For some reason theres Alt tuning warbles on that one alone with the GP 10 and not the VG-99. Havent tried the SY 1000 yet. If I do Ill rent one first just to see.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

admin

#128
Quote from: alexmcginness on September 02, 2022, 03:22:17 PMI can confirm that this may be so. I have several guitars with a GK-3 on them. They are all warble free on the GP-10 except one. Sadly for me its the one I use to take on the rod when I was giging. Its a Traveler Escape MKII Steel. For some reason theres Alt tuning warbles on that one alone with the GP 10 and not the VG-99. Havent tried the SY 1000 yet. If I do Ill rent one first just to see.

Look at the long " non speaking" string length on the Traveler guitar - the length of string behind the bridge and loops around the roller and then the string length to the Tuners is tremendous

Add string dampers to those areas of the string for best GK processor performance


Kevin M

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on September 02, 2022, 10:35:53 AMIf you listen to an orchestra for noise, you will hear people turning pages, coughing and farting.

 




I swear it wasn't me...it was the tuba!  :-)

aliensporebomb

#130
Weirdly it seems that to make a guitar be as good as possible for eliminating warbles and mistracking and whatnot you are eliminating some of the neat idiosynchracies of the guitar - vibrating springs or strings above the nut ringing out under overdrive. 

Bill's use of Ibanez shred machines for use with high tech guitar devices makes sense to me.  One of my best guitars for use with the GK/VG stuff is that neck-thru Jackson Soloist with carbon fiber stabilizer bars in the neck.   It just doesn't shift with the seasons in the midwest where I am like other guitars I own.

And don't forget fresh strings.  I found the D'Addario NYXL strings seem to have a very long time before they get unusable - I was going to do a video on how this is but I realized after several years it was getting ridiculous and changed them.

Anyway, nice demo Bill. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

stub

There are so many Pitch-Shifting failures out there in the audio world. There are still quite a few posts over on Fractal about how the virtual capo is too warbly to be useful-- and how many choose to use a Digitech Drop instead.

From my GP-10 days, I thought Boss was doing pitch-shifting as good as anybody (as in, not that good). Apparently, if I had a VG99, I might have a different opinion.

It would be neat to see some evolution in pitch-shifting approaches as CPU's get faster.

gumtown

My take on the issue is the SY-1000 has focused more on high fidelity tones, where previous units (VG-99) filtered a lot of the harmonic content out of the 6 GK string inputs.

If you were to add a 6 x Tone pots (or a single 6 gang tone pot if you are lucky enough to find one) & tone caps to the hex inputs, I think a lot of these (reportedly- I personally never had this) issues might get fixed.

Currently, pitch shifting is still quite 'monophonic' so if extra signals, such as string harmonics, sympathetic resonances, or induced power hum (you could potentially miss this one through things like ungrounded bridge/strings), then the pitch transposing and pitch detection is going to go wobbly.

60Hz hum entering the GK system hex inputs is potentially a real problem that can be easily missed as you are not likely to hear it as much as through your normal pickups, but because you can't hear it, doesn't mean it still won't throw of any pitch detection or pitch transposing.

This might be a good thing to follow up on the mains power harmonics of 60Hz vs 50Hz and which notes they land on.
On my side of the world, all our hum is at 50Hz and I don't get the same reported issues at those notes as previously described in this topic.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

admin

Quote from: gumtown on September 07, 2022, 03:18:55 PMMy take on the issue is the SY-1000 has focused more on high fidelity tones, where previous units (VG-99) filtered a lot of the harmonic content out of the 6 GK string inputs.

If you were to add a 6 x Tone pots (or a single 6 gang tone pot if you are lucky enough to find one) & tone caps to the hex inputs, I think a lot of these (reportedly- I personally never had this) issues might get fixed.

Currently, pitch shifting is still quite 'monophonic' so if extra signals, such as string harmonics, sympathetic resonances, or induced power hum (you could potentially miss this one through things like ungrounded bridge/strings), then the pitch transposing and pitch detection is going to go wobbly.

60Hz hum entering the GK system hex inputs is potentially a real problem that can be easily missed as you are not likely to hear it as much as through your normal pickups, but because you can't hear it, doesn't mean it still won't throw of any pitch detection or pitch transposing.

This might be a good thing to follow up on the mains power harmonics of 60Hz vs 50Hz and which notes they land on.
On my side of the world, all our hum is at 50Hz and I don't get the same reported issues at those notes as previously described in this topic.


All good info Gumtown

Also dont be afraid to try unorthodox settings - for GK-3 users, try one of the SY-1000 GK Type "Piezo-F" which enables use of Treble & Bass controls - cut the Bass may yield better results

philjynx

Quote from: gumtown on September 07, 2022, 03:18:55 PMOn my side of the world, all our hum is at 50Hz and I don't get the same reported issues at those notes as previously described in this topic.

Wasn't nobolusprime one of the earliest people to mention warbles? He's in 50hz UK (I think). 

Then there's lighting, florescent tubes emit heaps of mains frequency radio, also LED lighting is radio noisy, to the point where my oscilloscope is as good as useless if there's a mains LED light anywhere near the probes.

Just some more thoughts...

philjynx

#135
Quote from: gumtown on September 07, 2022, 03:18:55 PMIf you were to add a 6 x Tone pots (or a single 6 gang tone pot if you are lucky enough to find one) & tone caps to the hex inputs, I think a lot of these (reportedly- I personally never had this) issues might get fixed.
One of these?



aliensporebomb

#136
Some good thoughts.

Our internet service's high speed modem got replaced with a faster one a while back and it's noisier than heck in terms of RFI/EMI.
The SY-1000 is about 3 feet away from the modem.

Hear this:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/pods-luxeorch-7-patch-for-boss-sy-1000-big-pad-with-vox

You'll hear a repeated digital clicking in the background via headphones that I tried to remove but to really remove it I'd
have to power it off.  It's really loud and annoying.  Even with an electrical filtration/surge suppression device installed.

Kind of annoying to have to shut a modem off to record when a spouse is using said internet connection.





My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

admin

Quote from: aliensporebomb on September 08, 2022, 06:59:35 AMSome good thoughts.

Our internet service's high speed modem got replaced with a faster one a while back and it's noisier than heck in terms of RFI/EMI.
The SY-1000 is about 3 feet away from the modem.

Hear this:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/pods-luxeorch-7-patch-for-boss-sy-1000-big-pad-with-vox

You'll hear a repeated digital clicking in the background via headphones that I tried to remove but to really remove it I'd
have to power it off.  It's really loud and annoying.  Even with an electrical filtration/surge suppression device installed.

Kind of annoying to have to shut a modem off to record when a spouse is using said internet connection.
Get the modem further away from your studio
Distance will attenuate the noise

aliensporebomb

Quote from: admin on September 08, 2022, 08:57:15 AMGet the modem further away from your studio
Distance will attenuate the noise

Yes aware but it's in the spot it was in before with the old modem with no problems.   The larger issue: I need more space.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

gumtown

While the topic has steered to a possible link to external noise and wobbles,

It should be noted that the GK-3 pickup itself, the metal shroud over the pickup poles is not grounded,
 and the GK-3 plastic body is non-conductive.
These two items could be potential points where emitted interference/noise can enter the GK input circuit.
Same with the internal GK kit, if the guitar body cavity is not lined with grounded conductive material.

Best way to test that is if you by chance happen to have a Faraday cage in your studio,
 and place yourself + GK guitar + SY-1000 inside of, and compare to the outside environment.  ;D
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bill Ruppert

Quote from: admin on September 07, 2022, 03:40:29 PMAll good info Gumtown

Also dont be afraid to try unorthodox settings - for GK-3 users, try one of the SY-1000 GK Type "Piezo-F" which enables use of Treble & Bass controls - cut the Bass may yield better results
Good idea. I did try that, and unfortunately it did not help.
I will say the tone control in the Piezo section is nice to warm up the GK pickup for acoustic guitar sounds.

Bill Ruppert

Quote from: gumtown on September 08, 2022, 12:53:13 PMWhile the topic has steered to a possible link to external noise and wobbles,

It should be noted that the GK-3 pickup itself, the metal shroud over the pickup poles is not grounded,
 and the GK-3 plastic body is non-conductive.
These two items could be potential points where emitted interference/noise can enter the GK input circuit.
Same with the internal GK kit, if the guitar body cavity is not lined with grounded conductive material.

Best way to test that is if you by chance happen to have a Faraday cage in your studio,
 and place yourself + GK guitar + SY-1000 inside of, and compare to the outside environment.  ;D

For a Faraday cage, you could play your gigs in a chicken wire cage like the Blues Brothers in the country bar!

chrish

#142
Quote from: kimyo on September 01, 2022, 03:31:32 PMno one can get the sy-1000 to do this.  am i wrong?  post the audio.

alt tune any acoustic model to baritone and hit record. 

nothing would make me happier than to be proved wrong here. 

this is my position: the sy-1000 is clearly not a device which is suitable for recording alt-tuned acoustic guitars. this is inherent to its design and although proper guitar setup/technique reduce warbles, even the best v-guitarists/guitars will experience an unacceptable number when in studio.
here it is quick improv. Acoustic baritone patch audio example. I haven't updated ( probably won't) to 1.08.

This is from firmware 1.06. Wilcox Atlantis hex fx guitar straight into SY1000 alt tune baritone acoustic steel inst. model.You cannot view this attachment.

aliensporebomb

Won't update?   You seem to have better luck than most on those previous versions.   With v1.08 I don't have to worry about it anymore.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish


Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 26, 2022, 10:17:21 AMWon't update?   You seem to have better luck than most on those previous versions.   With v1.08 I don't have to worry about it anymore.
That Wilcox Atlantis hex fx guitar was a game changer for me in terms of improving tracking errors and glitches. The added bonus is it has very good sustain perhaps because there is no magnetic field acting on the string vibrations and it is a very good sounding acoustic electric. It's also not very loud acoustically so it doesn't interfere with with alt tuning note perception.

The downside is having to learn different string muting techniques because access to the bridge for palm muting is blocked by a guard over the optical hex pup.


My results using an external GK pup is about the same as everyone else is experiencing with the SY1000. Perhaps it is worth updating to 1.08. My only concern is other bugs or sound changes that may crop up.


aliensporebomb

Update v1.09 is even better.  What are other people finding?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

solo624

#146
In bass mode 1.09 firmware.  shrill sounds on multiple patches and yes it still warbles on alternate tunings no improvement was noticed .  Alternate tuning patches is not good if it warbles it sounds off or fluters . How do we fix ?

stub

Quote from: solo624 on January 04, 2024, 09:00:18 AMIn bass mode 1.09 firmware.  shrill sounds on multiple patches....Alternate tuning patches is not good if it warbles it sounds off or fluters.

Is this new problems and worse, or is it basically the same issues as before? (Just curious).

solo624

Hello,

I am using the Sy1000 strictly in Bass mode

This is from my previous email that went unaddressed with no response from Roland \ Boss, Sy1000 Firmware 1.08 had the same problem with bass mode, Updated firmware from 1.08 to 1.09 with alternate tuning latency & still warbles, need assistance this doesn't seem to be patch related, however, if it is can you assist with the procedure to adjust?
 
Bass mode Firmware 1.08 had similar troubles with warbles.
Also noticed some patches sound shrill, ex acoustic bass, some additional modeling, and synth layers. What are the proper procedures to resolve this?

What are Roland \ Boss's policies on resolving firmware troubles & supporting the Sy1000 pedal? Dates needed.
Written to Roland \ Boss this may fall on deaf ears but some things should be continued until it's resolved. I believe we should all contact them at times to check on sw \ fw troubles. INMO
I would appreciate it if we didn't have a year to wait for additional issues resolved. Please fix this
rather than design a new device ex GR55 after a few updates then no fixes until new models were introduced. Personally, if hardware concerns limit the presets installed initially. I'm aware you can go to VGuitars to review concerns .

I want to say I like Roland\ Boss products but they need to review other companies like Line 6 which still fix devices with software and hardware troubles to help users of there products.

I'd appreciate a response that this message was delivered and that you can help with this concern.
Thanks,

Elantric

#149
Since initial release in 2019. There have been nine SY-1000 firmware updates. If you can make a video demonstration of a repeatable bug that Roland/Boss AND  all other SY-1000 users can replicate, it gets assigned a higher priority for a fix.
Boss does not publicly announce future firmware release schedule