Is it possible that a strong humbucker could interfere with the sound of the GK

Started by joo1, April 16, 2021, 12:47:07 AM

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joo1

Hello,
Is it possible that a strong humbucker could interfere with the sound of the GK3?


GuitarBuilder

Quote from: joo1 on April 16, 2021, 12:47:07 AM
Hello,
Is it possible that a strong humbucker could interfere with the sound of the GK3?

By strong humbucker I'm assuming you mean one with strong magnets?  Now let's talk about the "sound" of the GK3 pickup.  It turns out that the GK3 audio signal does not make it to the output of a GK synth in its raw form.  It is only used for pitch detection or guitar modeling.  For pitch detection the key is tracking, and yes, a strong magnetic field right next to the GK3 may have a deleterious effect because it would prevent the string from vibrating as freely as it would without the humbucker next to it.  The real question is by how much and does it matter?  I have installed plenty of GK3 pickups next to strong humbuckers and from experience I can answer: not really!  Whatever the effect is can be dialed out with string-pickup spacing and sensitivity settings on the GK synth.  I'm not aware of the exact algorithms used for the guitar modeling (someone else who does may comment), but I suspect the effect here is either very minor or not noticeable as well (certainly not in the multiple HSS GK Strats I've built and own).
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

philjynx


CodeSmart

From a practical point of view I can confirm that when having a FTP pickup very close to a GK pickup (squeezed in tighly between bridge and bridge normal pickup) will (in my Strat case) affect the volume (and the frequency response) of the GK pickup to a noticeable degree).

All pickups work best when not disturbed by other magnetic fields. Probably a optimal synth axe would have just a GK pickup close to the bridge and nothing else.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

chrish

DSP Synths and triggering Roland PCM guitars synths in my experience works best with optical pickups, one for each string.

For triggering an Analog (no midi in ) synth, a mag hex pickup works great.

kimyo

Quote from: CodeSmart on April 16, 2021, 04:21:27 PMAll pickups work best when not disturbed by other magnetic fields. Probably a optimal synth axe would have just a GK pickup close to the bridge and nothing else.

are you saying that a 'strong' pickup can affect a gk pickup even when they are physically distant? 

i wonder what roland uses in their gr/sy testing/development environment.  it would be interesting if they were using guitars w/o magnetic/'normal' pickups. 


CodeSmart

Quote from: kimyo on April 16, 2021, 10:50:21 PM
are you saying that a 'strong' pickup can affect a gk pickup even when they are physically distant? 

i wonder what roland uses in their gr/sy testing/development environment.  it would be interesting if they were using guitars w/o magnetic/'normal' pickups.

So what is "physically distant"? I haven't made any measurements, just saying they interfere when "very close". In my case the FTP was directly onto (0mm) the GK. With a regular pickup you would normally always get a gap of a few highly wanted millimeters.

Quote:
Magnetic force obeys an inverse square law with distance.If the distance between two magnets is doubled the magnetic force between them will fall to a quarter of the initial value. (F/4) If the distance between two magnets is halved the magnetic force between them will increase to four times the initial.

So some distance is good. Other than that I don't know.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

mooncaine

So... I have my GK jammed up against a stacked humbucker here. Been that way a few years now. If I'm messing with the modeled COSM tones, I'd like to know, but apart from putting out an amazing amount of handling noise, I think it sounds pretty good.

Or else I got used to it.
Do you think those pickups are too close together? I gotta slant that GK to line it up with the strings. Cross talk can be an issue. Background noise often an issue when I use high gain COSM.

kimyo

Quote from: CodeSmart on April 16, 2021, 11:23:20 PM
So what is "physically distant"?
let's say the distance is at least three inches, like a 'normal' neck pickup, no 'normal' bridge pickup and a gk13.

i'm wondering if the 'normal' pickup could influence things like pitch detection or speed of pitch detection.

i'm trying to distinguish between the magnetic pickup's direct/proximate effect on the gk and its effect on the strings, ie: does the presence of a non-adjacent, non-gk pickup alter the string's movement in a manner sufficient to affect the gr/sy algorithms?

it seems to be accepted that magnetic pickups can reduce sustain, which might explain why some guitars warble more with the sy-1000.  however, i'm more curious about the initial detection stage. 

CodeSmart

Quote from: mooncaine on April 16, 2021, 11:46:39 PM
So... I have my GK jammed up against a stacked humbucker here. Been that way a few years now. If I'm messing with the modeled COSM tones, I'd like to know, but apart from putting out an amazing amount of handling noise, I think it sounds pretty good.

Or else I got used to it.
Do you think those pickups are too close together? I gotta slant that GK to line it up with the strings. Cross talk can be an issue. Background noise often an issue when I use high gain COSM.
As said, I'm not an expert, however my thinking is that there's still 8-10mm between the poles due to 'fat' windings of the pickup. If it sounds good, it's good. The FTP and the GK does not have these 'fat' windings so poles ended up much closer in my setup compared to yours.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

CodeSmart

Quote from: kimyo on April 17, 2021, 12:00:43 AM
i'm wondering if the 'normal' pickup could influence things like pitch detection or speed of pitch detection.
Definitively not speed of pitch detection. Time due to fundamental frequency (note) and software algorithm type only.

As GuitarBuilder wrote. For MIDI detection compensation you just adjust the GK Settings to compensate for a weaker signal etc.

I'm talking interference in terms of lost overtones, dynamics and sustain etc.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: CodeSmart on April 17, 2021, 12:07:22 AM
Definitively not speed of pitch detection. Time due to fundamental frequency (note) and software algorithm type only.

As GuitarBuilder wrote. For MIDI detection compensation you just adjust the GK Settings to compensate for a weaker signal etc.

I'm talking interference in terms of lost overtones, dynamics and sustain etc.

The best way to settle this is to record some modeled and synth sounds with the humbucker present and absent.  There's no arguing with data.......
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

Quote from: kimyo on April 16, 2021, 10:50:21 PM

i wonder what roland uses in their gr/sy testing/development environment.  it would be interesting if they were using guitars w/o magnetic/'normal' pickups.
I do recall recently seeing a strat style guitar for sale that was orange (I think) from Germany (I think) and the owner claimed it was a Roland test guitar.

One hex pickup and no mag pickups on it.

admin

Quote from: kimyo on April 16, 2021, 10:50:21 PM


i wonder what roland uses in their gr/sy testing/development environment.  it would be interesting if they were using guitars w/o magnetic/'normal' pickups.

They use both a GC-1 Strat and

The GTM GC-10 test guitar
built to order by FugiGen for Roland in small batches between 1994 to 2011
https://fgnguitars.com/
https://facebook.com/officialfgnguitars/

They were supposed to supply a GC-10 to major Roland dealers at the GR-55 demo rack  - but Guitar Center decided to use Fender GC-1 Strat for this task

I was shown a 2011 example backstage at 2011 NAMM GR-55 release at Roland Booth
https://www.joness.com/gr300/GC-10.htm









http://web.archive.org/web/20120222141957/http://www.roland.co.jp/mov/page.cfm?id=1097151210001

joo1

Thank you all, I will try to remove the humbucker at the bridge and test it in practice.
Are there electric guitars without pickups? :)

admin

Quote from: joo1 on April 17, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Thank you all, I will try to remove the humbucker at the bridge and test it in practice.
Are there electric guitars without pickups? :)


Original Variax

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=359.msg153193;topicseen#msg153193


Gibson Photon Hyperspeed Les Paul MIDI
Les Paul Hyperspeed. A very small quantity were sold in the late 80s. They used the Photon system below.



chrish

Quote:

"Because he's highly sensitive to string drag (inhibition of string vibration caused by the magnetic pull of pickups), Holdsworth is a staunch believer in guitars with just one pickup. He finds the VG-8 allows him to achieve multiple pickup tones without compromising the responsiveness of his instrument"

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20720.50

mooncaine

Actually, I used the same guitar, which I pictured in my earlier post in this thread, for about half a year with only the GK pickup. The other holes stood empty till I bought all the parts to finish it. Nowadays, the mag pickups aren't wired up (I made a bad connection that didn't last) and its waiting till I care enough to squint at it all afternoon and rewire it.
When it had no conventional pickups, I don't recall noticing that it sounded different. It was noticeably heavier when I put normal pickups in it again.

joo1

Thank you forum members for answers and for this forum.
I would like to share my results:
It turned out that when I took out the humbucker, which was with the GK, the sound was clearly better.
Later I remembered that once on the forum I read that the 13 pin cable can also be the cause of a bad sound.
I replaced the cable and it's much better :)
Thank you again and best regards.