What do you do to keep the VG-99 sounds current?

Started by mostlyjazzer, June 26, 2020, 08:11:51 PM

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mostlyjazzer

Hello everyone.

I'm trying to see how I could re-vamp my VG-99 sound experience.

I recently sold (for the 3rd time/hard to believe) a GR-55 and
acquired a used GP-10.
I love Roland gear.
As I listened to the GP-10, I'm impressed how sparkler everything sounds it seems.

So before I end-up angering the virtual guitar gods in the sky by putting my VG-99 for sale,
I need  to know if reasonable improvement can be done.

I have come across a 64bit plugin for recording with Reaper called Two-note which is a decent virtual cab sim which improves the sonic power and that is fine in the home recording world.

Is the heart of the matter the amp sims of the VG that will mostly improve the rest?

Because all of the numerous features (still not fully replicated in other products IMHO)
are still extra cool to have.

Perhaps another way to ask is, what have you done to keep you VG-99 sound fresh/exciting and current?

Thanks for any suggestions.

admin

Fastest method to improve the VG-99 experience is feed its output into a separate CAB IR SIM Box  - some are Stereo , Mono is lower cost

IR CAB SIM SOLUTIONS
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=256.0

sixeight

I feed the outputs of the VG-99 into a Helix. Never been happier with my sound. An HX stomp should do the trick too


mooncaine

Great question! I'm glad you asked. I don't have an answer; I just wanted to say that.

What I've tried to do lately to not sound too dated is remove or seriously muffle the reverb. And I avoid using a chorus effect. And generally dial out some highs because I always tend toward the Roy Buchanan end of the EQ spectrum. Lately I've been trying to fight that.

plexified


Grab your favorite recordings from any era and get to work. See if you can A/B and build the patch to clone the tones. I think a lot of people are really stuck with the 'whats around the corner' mentality. Listen with your ears and find inspiration to make you play, feel or write.

You have a skill set understanding a vital piece of gear. Perhaps new things to learn could reel you back in ? Have you ever thought about all the people that get on the habitrail wheel and keep running to nowhere? They do that every time they buy a new piece of gear. The learning curve eats up their time instead of getting to work on inspiration. RTFM sucks.

Granted many, many , many techniques can be transferred from one unit to another.

Maxing out your understanding of recording techniques used by big time producers is critical. You  get to know how they get their sounds on various recordings. The toolbox is only so big, its the techniques that make all the difference. We get to experiment with them now in the digital world.

Record yourself at all times. How many times have you played something that sounded great in passing, but never recorded it or persued it?

Steve Vai has recorded himself every day, since he was a kid. His goal is to make one thing a day, and sack it away. I can think of thousands of times I did not do this and regret every one.

Critical listening while building a patch or analyzing yourself playing is priceless and perhaps the most important thing we do as musicians. Putting ourselves under the microscope. Inspecting what we expect and occasionally finding out what we thought was sub par , off or downright terrible was an absolutely amazing moment in time.

Here is one to ponder, name one time you heard a record that was remastered that really impressed you. Now imagine you playing that track. First time was your VG-99, the remaster was with your raw track processed with the 'latest, greatest' piece of gear. Would it really matter ? Would it change the vibe ? The communication ?

I'm just throwing it out there. Every musician I know of constantly changes gear including me. My only gear regrets are selling things that you cannot replace. 'Certain guitars and handwired vintage amps'. With a VG-99 you can save your patches and your skillset despite selling it. Some things you just cannot replace, those are the ones you should at least acknowledge in advance.

aliensporebomb

#5
My wife asked if I was going to get rid of the 99 after I got my SY-1000.  My answer?  No way.  I have too many years of programming wound up in it.  I have probably two whole patch sets of original patches some of which I never bothered uploading since they were fine tuned variants of existing patches or updates of existing to make them better or stuff so applicable to me I didn't think anyone would have any interest.   

But that being said, the VG-99 still is the device with the widest timbral footprint I've ever heard for the guitar.  Now, the guitar amp stuff seems to be the falling down point for a lot of things if you compare it to devices made today.   But you can still get decent
regular guitar sounds out of the 99.

I've said that my best sounds come from just randomly playing and listening and I'll hear a snatch of melody or a timbre from a
song I've heard in the past and then I hone in on it.  I did that to this one:

https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/gangplank

Remember to always play with a lighter tough then you think you should (I didn't on this one and it sticks out like a sore thumb to me) but at least the timbre is right:

I was going to work on some new sounds too but my new device has been calling me of course like they often do.


My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

#6
The short answer is you can't. You can get the tone - and by that I mean matching the eq - but modeller have come on massively since the VG99 was released. It simply doesn't have the touch dynamics and weighty feel of current modelling.

I've been playing a Tweed Deluxe model in Bias FX2 most of the night and the way it reacts and responds to backing off and digging in - just awesome. By contrast the VG99 Tweed has none of the warmth and dynamics - that ability to push the break up. The light and shade, just isn't there. As much as I love the thing the models can't mix it with the current crop period. The reverbs have had their day too - the spring reverb never had it's day to start with, bloody awful!

Todd's rendition of the Robin Trower Bridge of Sighs (whys it called Gang plank?) sound is really close tone wise. Brilliant job of dialing it in man, but I can hear it just doesn't have the subtlety or nuance - that bloom of a real cranked amp that current modelling can give you. It's 2d vs 3d.

Yes, there's no single box solution that can do Every thing it does, but multiple boxes surpass it for maybe 90% of stuff. It's kind of a trade of convenience over ability.

Accept it for what it is - a brilliantly flexible tool that does a few unique things, some things amazingly well and others not so good. The lack of a send/return didn't future proof it (and they've messed that up on the SY1000 as well)

mostlyjazzer

So from admin+sixeight and Smash my takeaway is add a cab sim hardware box and raise the bar.

From plexified and aliensporebomb, my take away is : adopt "Thou shall tweak till I hear it" which is wise of course.

Hearing that plugin as well as the GP-10 did impress me.

I'm on explore mode to find something compact ( Helix is a bit big and out of budget currently) with stereo in (to accept output from VG-99) to a stereo out + decent reverb if possible.

Thank you for chiming in.

You guys are the best.

aliensporebomb

#8
Quote from: Smash on June 27, 2020, 03:03:32 PM
The short answer is you can't. You can get the tone - and by that I mean matching the eq - but modeller have come on massively since the VG99 was released. It simply doesn't have the touch dynamics and weighty feel of current modelling.

I've been playing a Tweed Deluxe model in Bias FX2 most of the night and the way it reacts and responds to backing off and digging in - just awesome. By contrast the VG99 Tweed has none of the warmth and dynamics - that ability to push the break up. The light and shade, just isn't there. As much as I love the thing the models can't mix it with the current crop period. The reverbs have had their day too - the spring reverb never had it's day to start with, bloody awful!

Todd's rendition of the Robin Trower Bridge of Sighs (whys it called Gang plank?) sound is really close tone wise. Brilliant job of dialing it in man, but I can hear it just doesn't have the subtlety or nuance - that bloom of a real cranked amp that current modelling can give you. It's 2d vs 3d.

Yes, there's no single box solution that can do Every thing it does, but multiple boxes surpass it for maybe 90% of stuff. It's kind of a trade of convenience over ability.

Accept it for what it is - a brilliantly flexible tool that does a few unique things, some things amazingly well and others not so good. The lack of a send/return didn't future proof it (and they've messed that up on the SY1000 as well)

Oh, why is it called "Gangplank characterized by lament"?  I translated "Bridge of sighs" using google translate into I think finnish and back into english and that's what it called the song.  So I named it that.  And also, that's the first and only time I've ever tried
to play a Robin Trower song in my entire life and I basically learned it by ear from a live version of the song so it's a totally weird thing in the first place if you know my musical history. 

When I hear that take, I just hear I wasn't backing off on the volume at all and wasn't playing with dynamics - I'd ease off on the finger pressure but I wasn't using the volume which would have helped.  But I hear what you're saying regarding dimensionality.  It would
have had more of that had I used an external processor probably.

Bill R always said to use 1/3 less finger pressure with the 99 than you think you need to get better results and he was right.  And I tend to stick to higher dynamics for "rock and roll" I guess. I've always thought the VG-99 handled guitar amp stuff with mixed results.  But yeah, ten years have passed.  We have more options now. 

Now, the SY-1000 amp models really do feel a lot better, even better than the GP-10.  That riding the volume feels and sounds more
like a real amp.  It even does the thing where you roll the volume down and the highs become just a little more pronounced and when you kick the thing into overdrive the highs drop subtly and the mids becoming more prominent.

I've never tried the BIAS FX2 though Stevie T swears by it.  Anyway....

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

Quote: "What do you do to keep the VG-99 sounds current?"


Simple answer is just buy an SY1000.

Smash

Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 27, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
Oh, why is it called "Gangplank characterized by lament"?  I translated "Bridge of sighs" using google translate into I think finnish and back into english and that's what it called the song.  So I named it that.  And also, that's the first and only time I've ever tried
to play a Robin Trower song in my entire life and I basically learned it by ear from a live version of the song so it's a totally weird thing in the first place if you know my musical history. 

When I hear that take, I just hear I wasn't backing off on the volume at all and wasn't playing with dynamics - I'd ease off on the finger pressure but I wasn't using the volume which would have helped.  But I hear what you're saying regarding dimensionality.  It would
have had more of that had I used an external processor probably.

Bill R always said to use 1/3 less finger pressure with the 99 than you think you need to get better results and he was right.  And I tend to stick to higher dynamics for "rock and roll" I guess. I've always thought the VG-99 handled guitar amp stuff with mixed results.  But yeah, ten years have passed.  We have more options now. 

Now, the SY-1000 amp models really do feel a lot better, even better than the GP-10.  That riding the volume feels and sounds more
like a real amp.  It even does the thing where you roll the volume down and the highs become just a little more pronounced and when you kick the thing into overdrive the highs drop subtly and the mids becoming more prominent.

I've never tried the BIAS FX2 though Stevie T swears by it.  Anyway....

Ha ha! Love the translation thing - crazy!  ;D

By no means a criticism of you btw - I'm criticizing the VG amps in 2020.

FWIW I think using an IR will definitely improve things but not solve the fundamental issue. You can disguise its shortcomings but as you say you have to concentrate on how you play instead of what you play.

When I bought my second one, and I'd been using the GT1k and then Bias in between the short comings were massively obvious when plugging into one again.

As I say, with the VG99 it's about having a coping strategy and willingness to carry on employing that. You can't change what's in the box, only how you approach it.

Shingles

In response to the original post, delete all your user patches and start again. And by 'delete' I mean replace them with blank, initialised patches, not copies of the factory presets.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Rusty Kirkland

so with respect to "sending the outs of the VG-99 to a cab/IR box"...  I assume that other options would work as well...
***  warning: these will be overkill
*****VG-99 R/L outs to a HX Stomp
*****VG-99 R/L outs to one of the R/L input pairs of a Axe FX III

yes?

Rusty

admin

Quote from: Rusty Kirkland on June 28, 2020, 12:15:44 PM
so with respect to "sending the outs of the VG-99 to a cab/IR box"...  I assume that other options would work as well...
***  warning: these will be overkill
*****VG-99 R/L outs to a HX Stomp
*****VG-99 R/L outs to one of the R/L input pairs of a Axe FX III

yes?

Rusty

bingo - just two of dozens of options today.

Could feed the VG-99 Stereo Out Stereo into FX return on a DSM Simplifer and use its Cab sims.

or feed a Digitech CabDryVR Cab Sim box

Rusty Kirkland

so the DSM Simplifer  FX return is stereo?

are you saying that the Simplifier could "apply" an amp to both the R and L outs of the VG-99?

Rusty

Rusty Kirkland

and (bear with me)   that would imply disabling A & B COSM amps on the VG patch?

Rusty

aliensporebomb

#16
And I figured one out today - send the stereo outs to the stereo fx returns of my Mesa studio preamp and run that mostly clean through my rack system - more later!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

#17
So if you run the stereo out into a helix or other preamp - all your vg99 effects would be ahead of the pre-amp - all the interesting stuff will get trashed. Even running just an IR thats only gonna cover rock guitar, it'll trash acoustic, synth or bass tones. If it's got midi capability then you can have it on or off on a patch by patch basis but if your using a synth, bass or acoustic or one of your COSMs as said it will kill the tone. Exactly the problem the GT1000 had on release - speaker cab anchored at the end of the line. Trust me, that was a major PITA.

suggestion..
That said....a possible solution may be to send the dirt COSM stuff only to sub outs and plug those into IR then mix IR output back in with the stereo out. Full range stays full range, dirty stuff gets modified. I don't know if that's possible though as I've never bothered with the sub outs.

May I suggest Amazon again to help see if this works for you  ;D


Rusty Kirkland

Thank You!

Mostly I'll be using the VG-99 for clean/ambient things.....    I have other boards (simultaneous) for OD or DS...  which can be mixed (Switchblade/FC300) with the VG-99 outputs.....               so not so much a need for dirt/distortion/OD for VG patches.....

Rusty

mostlyjazzer

#19
Man, the plot has thickened.
I like the wipe-the-slate-clean, and start cooking from scratch, which is on my agenda this week. (this may lead me to conclude I worried over a nothingburger)

I think I'm understanding Smash's comment " all the interesting stuff will get trashed" based on what I learned about the difference between a traditional guitar amp and a FRFR type that uses the incoming cab sims to shine
through (but here,in an all  digital dimension I guess).

That brings me to think, is there an FRFR-type or keyboard amp external cab sim pedal with stereo inputs out there? Then, I'm not sure if the built-in amps from the VG-99 would need to be turned off or on( I mostly use clean and synth tones and occasional dirt).

I wonder if Sixeight turned off the VG-99 cab sim in the clip, because the sounds in the clip he shared were quite good btw.

Would something as compact as a Zoom MS-50G with stereo inputs and several amp sims do?
Haven't tried any of those and unsure if still current. I did hear Pete Thorn's demo of the Helix stomp which is lush but, gotta debunk my nothingburger theory first.

Oh,also trying to mentally reconcile the idea of sought after vintage pedals vs the idea of "dated" sounds.

Love the input of everyone.

aliensporebomb

No they won't get trashed (interesting things).  Stand by.  I'm in the middle of a recording project or I'd interject!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

admin

#21
Quoteis there an external cab sim pedal with stereo inputs out there?

All listed here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=256.0



IRon Cab is an Impulse Response (IR) based stereo cabinet emulator. It supports IRs in wav 48kHz 24-bit format. Effective IR length is 20ms. IRon Cab provides a built-it mixer that allows flexible signal routing. Besides two independent IR blocks, you'll find Noise Gate, Parametric EQ, Saturation, Room/Reverb effects, which can be applied independently to left and right channels.
IRon Cab comes with a microSD card to load impulses from. There are 100 presets to store your settings and IRs. Together with single impulses, IRon Cab supports collections in CAB format. One collection may include 15 speaker types with up to 15 mics for each and 15 mic positions. To create a collection, use CAB editor provided as a part of software bundle for IRon Cab.
Features:
- Use two independent inputs (Left In and Right In) for stereo or to plug two instruments (guitar and bass for example) into IRon Cab simultaneously
- Connect a speaker cabinet or a loadbox to the Link output
- Copy your IRs onto provided microSD memory card and use them with IRon Cab
- Assign your favorite presets and functions to 4 speed buttons
- Use independent effects settings for Left Out and Right Out
- Connect your phone or other playback device to Aux In and monitor it through the Phones Out together with your guitar sound.

Download: Manual

http://yerasov.com/catalog/other-products/iron-cab-impulse-response-cabinet-simulator

sixeight

QuoteI wonder if Sixeight turned off the VG-99 cab sim in the clip, because the sounds in the clip he shared were quite good btw.

Would something as compact as a Zoom MS-50G with stereo inputs and several amp sims do?
Haven't tried any of those and unsure if still current. I did hear Pete Thorn's demo of the Helix stomp which is lush but, gotta debunk my nothingburger theory first.

I mostly use the amp sims of the Helix. Occasionally I use the amps of the VG99. I usually use the 4x10 speaker of the VG99 if I do. Always has been my favorite.

Zoom MS70-CDR has stereo inputs. There is a firmware hack to make it do amp sims,though there are not stereo. Helix and HX stomp are on a different level though. Both can do the same amps and effects. The Helix will just do more of them at the same time.

Smash

Quote from: aliensporebomb on June 28, 2020, 08:07:08 PM
No they won't get trashed (interesting things).  Stand by.  I'm in the middle of a recording project or I'd interject!

Just in case you misunderstood what I said - my point, was running any VG model intended as full range (synth/acoustic) through a speaker sim which effectively strips out frequencies above 6/7khz - and which was the point being made - will have a dramatic affect on their tone.

I assume your experiment with the studio pre-amp won't involve it's speaker emulation from what you've said else the "interesting stuff" (synths/acoustic) will get trashed.

Carry on.


admin

Quote from: Smash on June 29, 2020, 12:24:29 AM
Just in case you misunderstood what I said - my point, was running any VG model intended as full range (synth/acoustic) through a speaker sim which effectively strips out frequencies above 6/7khz - and which was the point being made - will have a dramatic affect on their tone.

Carry on.

All true - its why I recommend the Yerasov Iron Cab Stereo IR Cab SIM with MIDI CONTROL
Enable it only for Electric Guitar tone
disable the Cab Sim when you want to run Synths  / Acoustic tones

All via MIDI out from VG-99 to MIDI in on Iron Cab